Our True Colors: Mixed Race Voices and Other Stories of Belonging
Our True Colors is a podcast about identity, belonging, and life in the in-between. We explore what it means to be mixed race, multiracial, multicultural, racially ambiguous — or to grow up across cultures, through adoption, or in any space where identity doesn’t fit neatly into a box.
What’s it like to feel like you fit everywhere yet belong nowhere, all at the same time? If you or someone you love has ever been called a racial riddle, an ethnic enigma, or a cultural conundrum, this show is for you.
Each season, host Dr. Shawna Gann — a business psychologist and storyteller — is joined by a new co-host who brings their own lens. Together with guests, they share candid conversations, family stories, and professional insights that remind us we don’t clock in and out of our identities.
At its heart, Our True Colors is about connection: creating a space where mixed, multicultural, and cross-cultural voices can be heard, where belonging is explored, and where “otherness” becomes something powerful to claim.
Our True Colors is an extension of The Culture Crucible, Dr. Gann’s practice dedicated to building stronger, more inclusive workplace cultures. Learn more and connect at www.culturecrucible.com
Our True Colors: Mixed Race Voices and Other Stories of Belonging
Talking Multiracial Identity with Dr. Sarah Gaither
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In this episode we discuss the studies of Dr. Sarah Gaither, who studies multiracial identity. Though we don't know a lot about the development of our racial identities, there have been some very interesting insights - including physical reactions to racial situations.
Dr. Gaither is an assistant professor of psychology and neuroscience at Duke University in North Carolina and where she runs the Identity & Diversity Lab. She specializes in studies surrounding biracial and social identities as well as racial interactions, racial categorization, and social development. One of her areas of focus is understanding how having multiple social or racial identities affects behavior and fluidity of identity.
If this is your first time with OTC, check out EPISODE 1: START HERE for more background on the show. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram!
Don't forget to check out Dr. Gann's new book, Mixed Signals: A Multiracial Window into Civility and Belonging at Work available in hardcover, paperback, and eBook. The audiobook is coming soon—stay tuned!
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Transcript by Otter.ai
00:06
Welcome to our True Colors hosted by Sean again. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial, racial, and ethnic Enigma, and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.
Shawna 00:21
Welcome, everyone. So glad you're here. I've got Shannon Edwards with me. She is my co host for this season. Shannon, how are you doing?
00:30
I am doing well. Good to talk to you again.
Shawna 00:34
Yeah, thank you. I'm so glad you're here. I just wanted to talk about Dr. Sarah Gaither, I had the chance to talk with her. She is an Assistant Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience at Duke University in North Carolina. And she specializes in studies surrounding biracial and social identities specifically. And also interracial interactions, racial categorization and social development in general. And one of her areas of focus is truly understanding how having multiple social or racial identity identities affects behavior, and fluidity of identity, you know, like this concept of changing kind of how we identify. So it was really cool to talk with her because, you know, she's done so many studies in this area. And, you know, she can speak to that, you know, her findings from the scientific community, you know, like, you know, we're talking a lot of the social aspects and our own experiences. But it was really great to sort of have her her
01:39
perspective. Yeah, it was very interesting. I loved it, and I can't wait to dive in more to it.
Shawna 01:45
Yeah. So I asked her how our identities are really formed and developed, you know, and she said,
01:55
there's been a lot of wonderful, multiracial, multicultural research in sociology and Critical Race studies. But within a psychology framework, we actually know very little about the actual developmental process of when it is a person decides they're multiracial, or biracial, or mixed race. And I think that variation, and the terms that people use also make studying multiracial experiences, quite complicated.
02:20
Great. And people don't know exactly what to claim, right? You know, there's a big question around that, do I own that I am black? Do I own that I'm white? Do I own that, um, you know, a month
Shawna 02:36
there was, I put out like a kind of an informal survey, you know, and tried and true was just getting started. And one of the respondents actually said that they felt like it was almost like not appropriate to claim something like they kind of felt like it was, it's not necessary, and that expressing how you identify or claiming a certain identity kind of sends us backwards instead of forwards. What do you what are your thoughts on them?
03:09
I mean, I don't think it necessarily sends us backwards, I just think it puts into perspective, again, that everyone's different. And I think if people are more aware that we're all living our reality, but everyone's reality is different. So I think it's important to point out, right, we live, not so much in a very simple world, but a very abstract world where, you know, we, we all bring something different to our table, and we're all shaped by our experiences. And we have to recognize that our experiences are different. And that's what makes, you know, life and relationships. So like, fulfilling, right, you are, that's what I think, anyways.
Shawna 03:54
You know, so Dr. Gaither, she talks about how people might be excluded from a study because she's looking for berries, you know, specific participants. And you would have to identify with the the criteria that she sets for these studies, in order to be a participant
04:15
from a recruitment angle on who it is, we're actually representing in our research from who it is we're excluding from our research, since we know there's lots of multiracial people who don't claim that label. So I like to always start with the big caveat that a lot of my own research and I think other people's research is really reflective of people who claim that multiracial label as reflective of their own identities.
Shawna 04:38
And, you know, she also talked about the concept of malleability or kind of shifting one's identity. So on one hand, you know, there's the, the idea of claiming something specific, but then what happens when you switch or go back and forth?
05:00
I do think that this fact of belonging to multiple racial or cultural groups does give multiracial people a slight advantage in navigating different types of diverse spaces. So this experience of being able to perspective take between one racial identity versus another, we show on a lot of studies can make across race interaction go better versus go worse, depending on which identity you might be thinking of in that given moment, we also show that it boosts creativity and problem solving abilities. So that multifaceted sense of self that multiracial people naturally encompass, really can be harnessed in ways to make you just look at the world in a much more flexible way.
05:37
I mean, I think it's 100% True that, you know, being biracial can increase your problem solving abilities. And I 100% agree, I'm like, I feel like I am more self and socially aware, you know, and maybe that goes with being a psych major too. And my job has a lot to do with emotional intelligence. But, you know, even in high school, looking back, I feel like I was very high on emotional intelligence. And I just wonder if that traces back to being so aware of my differences in the world, and having parents who helped me help guide me, so I definitely agree that, you know, more problem solving, more self aware and more socially aware of, you know, what's going on around me? And what's going on in the world in general.
Shawna 06:29
Yeah, for sure. I've never really identified as multiracial. But what I do have is, you know, just due to the nature of my husband's work, and, you know, having lived in different kinds of communities, I mean, specifically, I've lived overseas a lot, even though I don't, I don't have that, you know, the varying racial perspectives, like from my home, I have had lots of cultural experiences that I think have helped me. You know, in a similar way, you know, just, I think I'm, I'm more empathetic, and I'm able to put myself in someone else's shoes a lot more easily, just because I've had that exposure to different cultures. And I think I, I approach problems or situations, automatically now, thinking about the different, you know, ways someone else might be considering a situation. So, I mean, I think it doesn't even take being multiracial or, or, you know, growing up with families with different, you know, Heritage's or multicultural homes, you know, to be able to develop that, you know, just again, I think it comes back to that exposure that to
07:56
100% exposure. I recently read a study, I believe it was from Harvard Business Review, that people who spend time abroad are more in tune with their values, you know, because they, you know, I don't know exactly, but I can give you the gist of the article, it tells you, it talks about how being in another country, it makes you question your own morals, and what is normal? And what are social norms. So living abroad for anyone is a perspective, and it gives them a perspective to another culture, something that's very different than our own. So I 100% believe you when you say, you know, not only being this multiracial person, but just living abroad, yes, you definitely get a different perspective. And you're more in tune with your own values.
Shawna 08:48
Yeah, I think so. I do, I think you you just really become more socially aware in general. So, and like, do you find in your experience that you kind of shift perspectives, depending on your situation, or who you're with? So like, this idea of being racially fluid, or, you know, sometimes it's called, like code shifting, you know, do you change? Like your behavior in any way, or how you approach things? Or do you think it's really just sort of internal and you're the way you think, when it comes to settings?
09:35
Right. So that's like a, it's a hard question, right? Because no one wants to say like, I'm different in this situation than I am in this situation. But if I'm being truthful, you know, I'll say my thoughts definitely are the same, right? I still have the same beliefs and everything. But if you're talking even about like how you talk to others, or What you feel okay about saying in front of others 100% That shifts, right. You know, there's this black power, right, that you can get when you're talking with an African American, but, you know, no white person's gonna, like, put up the fist to you and us, you know, sister and all this stuff. So my, you know, I guess maybe a more out there? Well, you know, I don't know exactly how to explain it, I have to be more mindful when I'm in these situations, so I can report back but 100% I think that, you know, kind of a chameleon, right, you know, you do to fit in with who you're with at the
Shawna 10:43
moment? Well, I mean, I think every person does that to some degree. Right. Right. Like, you're, you're going to talk differently at home with your family than you would with your colleagues at work, or than you would with a client versus, you know, someone you just met. Right? Yeah. So I mean, I think, in general, no matter who you are, whatever your background is, everyone sort of tailors their behavior or their speech, or even the way you dress or look, to the situation to some degree. Right.
11:19
Right. But do you think that that shift is bigger with multiracial people? Because I would argue that it is right being you're bouncing back between groups, what do you think on that?
Shawna 11:33
Like, for me, I think it I am, I'm always, sadly, I don't want to say always, because, again, like I said, I think that my identity development is continuing, right. But I was just so hyper aware of how I was different from others. And part of this has to do with personality, I don't even know if it has to do mainly with my, you know, like who I am, in terms of my racial background or anything like that. A lot of its personality, too, but just hyper aware of how I was different from other people. And not that I wanted to, like change who I am. But I was just always thinking about how I might be perceived. And so, you know, like I said, I think everyone kind of tailors themselves to whatever situation we're going to be in. So like, right, I'm going to probably put in a little bit more effort than I would go into, you know, when I'm going to a job interview versus when I've been at a job for five years or something like that, like, I'm going to really want to make that first impression. But I have to go through the process of straight my hair. Should I leave it curly? Should I put back? Yeah, you know, like, those kinds of questions more than just like, should I wear this suit or not? You know,
13:05
oh, most when I go to a job interview, or when I think about it, most of my worries are with how I present on the things that I can't change. So like, I could change my outfit. I am never worried about my outfit. I'm worried about is my hair too big. Right? Should I put it in a bun?
Shawna 13:23
Yeah, so I don't know. I mean, yeah, too. Oh, god, my hair is too big. Please don't let it read. You know, oh, my gosh, we keep coming back the hair. But so yeah, I mean, I guess I do think about that, that kind of stuff. And I do tend to make decisions based on what kind of place I'm going to, like I have gone so far as to like, check out the demographics of where I'll be like, how many people of color are there? Am I gonna stand out? Like I worked in Germany for a while, you know, and I'm thinking back to the school you know, when I this is when I was teaching and I don't think there was any other person of color on the faculty. So like we we came from different places. But you know that usually like I'm when I find another person of color, especially a woman of color, in my workplace, it's like, you know, that that special acknowledgement that you give sometimes because it just feels so good to have somebody else there that at least can somewhat relate to you. So I don't think I
14:37
you know what that makes me think of with that. The nod
Shawna 14:43
to that episode of blackish, right? Oh
14:45
my gosh, yeah, but that was relevant in my life. I'd be like, Dad, do you know him? No, I just
14:59
I've been watching In a minute, but that first episode is the nod. That's a good episode, if you want to check it out the first episode of blackish ever made,
Shawna 15:08
for sure. It's so true, I
15:16
think the biggest set of findings we keep seeing over time is the lack of belonging in line with your podcast here that they all support feeling, right? They are constantly questioned from both sides of their racial or cultural backgrounds. They're never black enough or white enough. So that belonging issue seems to be pretty universal, regardless of the type of multiracial person that we bring into our lab.
Shawna 15:43
There's a lot about, and I'm speaking so generally, but what stereotypical black culture is that, like, I don't feel like I fit in to that. And also, there's a lot of stereotypically white culture that I also don't fit in with. And it's just a weird thing. So I think I'm pretty much stay who I am. And it comes down more to appearance, like I don't talk differently or anything like that. But it does have a lot to do with, with how I look. I just, you know, so much of my time has been spent away. Right? That I don't know, I don't really feel like I relate squarely with one particular group anyway, so I'm always kind of feeling it out. Right.
16:35
I work in Chicago public schools in emotional intelligence, so that I have to do a lot of research on this. But yeah, so sixth, seventh, eighth grade, it's a big period for they're usually lower in self confidence. So they're looking for more acceptance. So I could definitely see like, you know, a shift, you know, in retrospect, now, looking at my life, I can see, there was a big shift then. And like I said, In a previous episode, that was also when I was exposed more to more black children than in my elementary school, and then just, you know, being 23. Now, so looking for that, you know, I've lived mostly in white areas, right. So Chambersburg, Pennsylvania was not too diverse. And then I moved to Wyoming, which is probably well, which is 100% worse. Worse in terms of diversity, you know, and now I live in Chicago where anything goes, it's a very diverse place.
17:43
But mixed studying multiracial experiences, so complex, and so multi layered, no pun intended, there is some of it depends on what you look like what we call phenotypically in psychology research so outwardly, do you look more black or Asian or white? Are you white passing or not? These issues of colorism come up a lot and the types of experiences that a multiracial person may or may not face. And so I think depending on how someone looks, depending on the neighborhood, they've been raised in whether they're in a single parents or two parent household, all of these different factors can lead to higher level lower levels of identity conflict or identity denial experiences that someone might have internally. This, this notion of imposter syndrome comes up a lot when studying biracial and bicultural individuals. And that, again, you're not quite enough of whatever group that may mean something to you. And so this constant struggle of trying to fit into something where our societal boxes are pretty fixed. And they don't know how to account for people who literally belong to two boxes within the same social category does create this sense of conflict on Well, should I vote for this person or that person in a given election? Or should I date this person or that person based on one of my racial backgrounds versus the other? Should I talk one way or another way? These are the constant questions that we know can play a pretty strong toll for biracial people and trying to figure out who it is that they are and can be based on the society and the context in which they live.
Shawna 19:14
Okay. Wow, that's a lot to unpack that.
19:18
I know. Yes, it is. I mean, I was snapping when I heard everything she was bringing up. I was like, wow, I never thought of it that way. But it's so true. So true.
Shawna 19:35
You know, being back in DC are so excited to be in the city again, where it's so much more diverse than where I was living before in Europe. I mean, it was a great experience. And there are definitely aspects of diversity there. But I really felt out of place. So being back here in this area, and the DMV has been, you know, it feels really good. Just to have more people kind of like It can be or, or so on. But what's interesting is a friend of mine, you know, I had only really been here like two weeks. And she invited me out to go to like a happy hour. And we did. And it was so much fun. But I realized when I was in, at least the first place that we went to me, it was predominantly black, although there was a lot of people there, you know, all kinds of people there. But I would say predominantly black, I noticed, I mean, I was just kind of super aware that I felt like I wasn't 100% part of the culture there. So it was good time. Nobody there made me feel out of place or anything. But like, I was thinking, I don't know the words to the songs, or just some of the references that were made TV shows that people are watching, like, I just kind of felt out of the loop, if that makes sense. So yeah, I don't know if that's like, really imposter syndrome, but I think it's maybe like, a piece of it, at least where I felt like, I couldn't 100% relate. So,
21:12
yeah, and I mean, I feel like that's just part of being multiracial, right? Like, you're always hyper sensitive to like the situation you're in. Because I always notice if I am the only black person in the room, but I also always notice if I am surrounded by all black people, you know, I feel like, there's not always a, there's not often an equal mix, right? So yeah, I can just think of those instances in my head more often than I can think of an instance where it's all mixed, you know, and living in Pennsylvania and living in Wyoming, you definitely see, you know, the mostly white one black person, and, you know, I've just gotten used to it. And it's not a as big of a deal for me, but when you see those instances, say like, in the city now, right, you know, so I live in Chicago, it's very diverse, but you still get in those situations where it's, it's ways, mostly one way, so it's, it kind of takes you aback, you know, oh, how should I act in this setting? And how should I not act in this setting? So,
Shawna 22:29
yeah, I understand for sure. I guess I was thinking about how to act is more that moment, it was more about just, yeah, like you said, the hyper awareness, just kind of like, wow, you know, like, or someone would say something like, what you don't know the show, or you don't watch the show? Or, oh, my gosh, the song or something like that. And I was thinking like, I don't know it, you know, and I felt sort of like, am I supposed to do it or right? Yeah. So my friend actually, I told her about this. And she said, like, how did that make you feel? And I said, Well, I think I'm just still kind of thinking about it, you know? And she asked me, if the experience made me feel like I wanted to dive deeper into black culture, or at least those aspects of it. And I really wasn't sure how to answer it. I'm like, I don't know. I mean, I'm kind of happy with who I am. Like, I don't, I didn't feel like I needed to dive deeper, so to speak, right. But I also didn't like that feeling of sort of feeling out of the loop. So I don't know, it was just interesting. It was an interesting experience. I think
23:45
your friend asked a really good question. And you know, now thinking about it on my side, like, I never feel like, I should be any other way there myself. But, uh, I guess it goes back to that belonging piece, like, where do I fit into this puzzle? You know,
Shawna 24:03
yeah. I was thinking about a time, you know, when I was living in Prague, and I was out with this, it's kind of like an outdoor food court, but with restaurants instead of typical food, court food. And I was with some friends and there was another girl there who clearly was multiracial, or something. You know how it is. It's always like that with us. It's something and she and I kept locking eyes. It was hilarious, because I was thinking, aha, because we're both noticing each other like, oh, yeah, you're out. You're out of water to me to know, it was interesting. Think about that. One of the things Dr. Gaither talked about was this whole you know, tricky thing with like straddling two worlds, you know, or even even if you're not multiracial. Just finding your place in this world with like, who you are, and maybe you have other bits of culture. So I know it was interesting when she talked about some of those challenges.
24:58
Yeah, I mean, She talked about a political split. And I can, you know, talk speak to that a little bit with you one side of my family, you know, leaning mostly left and one side leaning mostly right. And then it's like, you know, I have my own views. And you feel like you have to hide that from one side of the family or not share too much on the other side, you know? So it's definitely like, who should I vote for? Because, you know, at the end of the year, I feel like, they all think I'm voting the same way as them. Right. But you know, someone's going to be wrong, because there's one of two unless you're independent. Right? So yeah, I mean, that plays, she also mentioned the dating split. And, you know, I think we're going to speak to that maybe in another episode, because I feel like that could go on and on. And
25:58
no one likes ambiguity. We want people who we consider our end group members to be exactly like us. So for multiracial people, or, in line with this discussion of, you know, typicality, racially ambiguous, or ethnically ambiguous people, that gives us as social perceivers in our human world, kind of an excuse to not include someone. And so this questioning we actually see happens on both sides, majority and minority group memberships for multiracial, multi ethnic people, where we see some kind of unique patterns is this issue of claiming a biracial label or a biracial identity is distancing oneself from their minority heritage. So for example, if you are biracial, black, white, and you claim a biracial label, there is some notion within parts of the black community that you are not proud enough of your black identity. And you're actually distancing yourself from that by claiming your white side or your biracial side. And we see this with other mixed race backgrounds as well. So I think those are the types of questions that research is just now starting to unpack, and we don't have a ton of that out here. What we do show, though, is that the same stressor that an Asian American individual faces when being questioned about their American identity is entirely apparent for biracial people who are questioned about their racial identity. And so we showed this in a paper we just published in a special issue on diversity science, measuring cortisol responses through saliva samples in the lab, where we actually brought in by cultural and biracial people and denied their identity in the lab and found that these, these experiences are very similar for both types of populations.
Shawna 27:36
So what do you think about that, like the stressors involved with just being asked to put a label on yourself?
27:45
Yeah, I think it's crazy, but I definitely believe it, right. I mean, I definitely I don't feel a shame in saying I'm biracial. And I don't shame anyone, if you know, whatever label they put on, it's there. Right. But I can 100% see how it can be stressful because in the black community or, you know, a drop of white, you know, that's what they say, a drop of white, you know, you think you're better, you're more pure, right? And then, but also in the white community, you know, it can be seen a drop of black, you know, you're not as,
Shawna 28:24
like, are you talking about hypo descent? Kind of like the one drop rule, and then how that plays a part in colorism?
28:31
Yeah, yeah. Yes. Can you explain that?
Shawna 28:35
Yeah. So it comes really, from the old laws, you know, basically, I think it was, if you had 1/32, black blood, so to speak, and you're, then you were just considered black. And that had a lot to do with the laws specifically, like around Jim Crow time, you know, when before the civil rights when there was still segregation? And it was kind of this frustration, where the, you know, we're past the point of slaves being freed. But there still weren't equal rights. Right. So there was, you know, there were rules about who could sit where, who could, you know, you know, you know, how it goes like with the water fountain and all of those, you know, segregation laws, and there had to be some sort of determination as to who was be considered a black because, you know, even like, Dr. Gaither even talked about, you know, just this, you know, these labels, and it's, it's just not clear, but with Hypo descent, like, people can, like, apply that to themselves. Or it can be something that's imposed upon people, you know, whether they want to or not, so, I like to think of the idea I think like Barack Obama is just a perfect example of this. He's mixed race. Yes, right. But A everybody talks about him as the first black president. So why doesn't it go the other way? Why don't we just talk about him being a white president who is mixed with, you know, African heritage, you know, it's just automatically this label and it's called hypo decent, because it goes down the social hierarchy, you know, and that's just, that's just how it is this hierarchy in society, you know, something we don't like, but we even do it to ourselves, like, like me, and, you know, you mentioned something like this earlier to where, you know, I don't I certainly don't present white. Even though people sometimes are trying to figure out, you know, what my background is, they know, I'm not white, so they're probably going to lean closer to something else, you know, that's a person of color. And then usually, that's the whole attribution, especially if you're a person who no matter what your racial heritage is, if you present mono racially, you know, that, then you especially get that and I think that Barack Obama is a great example of that.
31:14
Very good example. Yes. I couldn't agree more.
Shawna 31:17
It's interesting, you know, you kind of talked about the politics. And, you know, that's, that's a big deal right now, too. And we've got like, Kamala Harris, who, you know, she is mixed, African American and Indian, you know, and so, but people refer to her as a black candidate, you know, so it's like, well, let's not forget the rest of her. She has a whole person about sometimes it's used as a celebration, and sometimes it's not. So yeah, you know, one of the things Dr. Gaither said as people, whether Asian, or from from wherever they experienced these high levels of stress when people are asking them to talk about their situation, and especially if it's denied, and I just thought it was so interesting that she said it's the same, even if you're not talking about nationality, but just your, your, you know, racial heritage, your ancestry. So. Yeah. Anyway, um, I guess, you know, maybe it's about time to kind of to wrap things up here. Is there? Did you have any other thoughts about what we've talked about today?
32:40
My one last thought, was actually for, I wanted to give a shout out to Dr. gators answer about her family. Because in the previous episode, I had also given a shout out to my family, and it's just made me come to realize that, you know, if you have acceptance in your own corner, you can definitely move through the world easier. So I feel like that's a correlation that me and her both share. And, you know, I feel any biracial person who has that support can navigate this world, at least a little bit better. You know,
33:20
I'm biracial, I'm biracial, black, white, I outwardly look very white. So I'm not necessarily what people think of when you think of biracial reality in the United States. And it's been a struggle for me as well, in lots of ways, as privileged as I am to be white passing, I get to go through these spaces much more easily than if I were to look more outwardly as a racial or ethnic minority. But what I want to say to any other mixed individuals out there who are listening is you're not alone. There are lots of different types of multiracial reality. And I hope that as a group, we can all actually start belonging together rather than continuously, being those border police that are trying to decide who is biracial and who's not biracial. I was very fortunate to be raised by both my mother and my father, and they always made me hyper aware since day one, that I was lots of different things. My toys were as racially and ethnically diverse as the United Nations. And I think growing up in that environment was always a huge buffer from any of the questioning that I had across my life.
Shawna 34:24
I love the thing about her toys being from Malta, or from Yes, diversity, United Nations. It's awesome. You know, cuz when I was growing up, though, I don't think I don't think I had all kinds of different toys like that, but that's super cool. So, yeah. Well, thank you, Shannon. Thanks for joining me again. No problem. Love to do it again. Yeah, looking forward to the next one. All right. Talk to you then. Thanks for joining us, everyone. That's our show for the week. I am still wondering a bit about racial fluidity though. If you're someone who has experienced kind of a shift between how you feel, racially or culturally, depending on who you're with, please tell me about it. You can write to me at tribe@shawnigan.com or you can find me online, on twitter or instagram at tribe and true one, that's number one. Or you can send me a voice memo or give me a call. And you can reach me at 202-670-3323. Until then, stay safe out there, y'all. Remember to Share a smile with someone and make someone feel welcome. Love you. I'll talk to you soon.
