Meet Shannon!

Let's get to know Shannon Edwards, my guest co-host for season one. We will touch on the many experiences we have had as racially ambiguous women from the perspectives of varying generations.

If this is your first time with OTC, check out  EPISODE 1: START HERE for more background on the show. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram!

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Transcript

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00:06

Welcome to our True Colors hosted by Sean again, join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial, racial, and ethnic Enigma, and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.

Shawna  00:22

I am super happy to introduce my guest co host for season one. Her name is Shannon Edwards, Shannon and I met at a conference in DC earlier this year, and we just really hit it off. We were talking and then next thing you know, we were chatting like we've like, I don't know, been talking forever. So it was really great. What do you agree? I definitely agree. It was pretty cool. So as the ideas for tribe and true began to kind of come to fruition, I immediately thought of Shannon, because in our talks, we had a lot of things in common, but also some differences that just, I thought would be super interesting to explore. So I don't know, Shannon, why don't you introduce yourself to and just say a little bit of something about yourself, and then then we'll just continue to chat.

01:13

Sure. Um, so first off, thank you for having me, I really appreciated them really excited for the rest of the season. But my name is Shannon, I am 23 years old. I currently live in Chicago, Illinois. But I grew up in Chambersburg, Pennsylvania, a small town in south central Pennsylvania. And I grew up with a black father and a white mother, in a small pride, primarily white town. So I feel pretty blessed that I've had an opportunity to see both sides of things. You know, I've lived in a small town. My parents both grew up in cities. So I definitely was exposed to that in a young age. And now I live in Chicago. So in short, like I've seen a wide spectrum that's kind of shaped my perspective, and helped me walk through the world as I am right now. So I'm excited to share that experience with everyone else.

Shawna  02:15

Very cool. And thank you for joining me as CO hosts for season one. Yeah, I I love it. Because we kind of come from different generations. I'm I guess, technically from Gen X, I saw something that set out like, I don't know, my age group, and kind of the experiences I had growing up, it was called xennials, like, combo between millennial and Gen X. And so I am sort of like on the cusp. And I thought it'd be really interesting to see. Kind of like, I don't know, how I experienced things growing up, and even now, and we, you know, we're going through, you know, very similar things in society now, but you know, we might have different takes on it, because of our lenses. So, yeah, and also, you know, I, I grew up, just always identified as being black even though you know, I present very racially, ambiguously to people you don't know, you know, but I guess technically, I am multiracial. But I would say what differs is I have always had sort of the the one perspective in terms of like, my culture, and my identity. So cool. Yeah. So I don't know. Did you want to talk a little bit more about your family? You know, you, you mentioned kind of having these different perspectives? What are what are some examples of things that you can talk to?

03:50

Sure. So, I mean, growing up in a primarily white town, so like I said, I think when I was growing up there, it might have been 5%, black. So I know, at my particular elementary school, there wasn't too many children that looked like me. And actually, I can't remember a girl that looked like me. I can remember boys who did. So you know, growing up, one of the first things I heard and that rings in my head through elementary school is you know, you, well, you look black, but you talk Wait, you know, and I heard that all through our elementary school in middle school. So that, you know, that kind of puts his perspective on you when you're young, like, you know, like, what's wrong with me or you know, whatever. What do you mean? What do you mean I talk, okay. And then just moving up, you know, through middle school, you're starting to find your place, but then different aspects like beauty comes into place, right? Like, I have very current very curly hair. So You know, in middle school and in high school, like, I felt like I always had to have it straight. Because that was, that was the thing to do that was the more normal, that was the right thing to do. Right? That was what was pretty. So even perspectives like that. I look back now and although there, you know, the 5% of black kids who were in my school, they were 100%, black for the most part. So, for me, you know, it comes into the thing of, well, you're not black enough, and you're not white enough I can. I can remember this one time, like, in middle school, or I think it was in high school. And we were applying for scholarships for, you know, a black society. And some, a black student had told me, they said, Why are you applying, you're only half, you know, I need this more than you. I'm like, Well, okay, you know, looking back on it, now, I'm like, I'm actually a more rare breed than you. Because I, you know, I have this, you know, two perspectives, two sides, I'm looking on family life, I feel like, I was very lucky to have both my parents in my life and two sides of my family that supported me, right. 

So I had my white side of the family, and there never seemed to be a divide there. And then I also had my black side of the family, which, again, never seemed to be an apparent divide there, there was always, you know, a few things that would come up here and then, but never affected the way that I, you know, they view me or how I perceive them to view me. So I'm very fortunate at that, because I feel like, you know, sometimes, you know, people don't support that a biracial relationship from the beginning. So, you know, I feel very lucky that I had very active sides of my family. Moving away from like, middle school, elementary school and into college. Again, I went to a very primarily white university, which is fine, because at this point, I knew how to navigate it. For the most part. I started working out west and Yellowstone National Park as a freshman, I would go out there, between my summer breaks, and then I eventually had time to move out there for a short stint after I graduated university at a young age or, you know, early. And I feel like moving out west is really, really where I started falling into myself and like, what I wanted, and knowing myself, and with that came knowing my place with my racial, you know, am ambiguity. You know, for me at this point, it's kind of, you know, I claim black, that's for sure. But now, I kind of recognize that I'm unique, and you can't really fit me into a box. Stereotypes really affect me more than being able to put myself in a class, right? Because so I'm very black presenting, definitely can't pass as white. But all my interest interests have to do with, you know, stuff that you may say more white people do, right. So I like skiing. I like hiking. I love swimming, you know, stuff like that. So even my dad we always laugh, but he goes, my dad always go Yeah, that's that's the way to New. Um, but you know what, it's all good. Yeah, but it's really for me now. And I'm still young. It's just owning that, you know, I can't. I'm never going to be fitting in one box. But that's okay. And I finally have come to realize that that's okay. I don't need you know, we're all different. That's what makes us special. Right?

Shawna  09:25

Oh, my gosh, I have so many questions. Now. This is really cool. Oh, yeah.

09:29

Let's go. Ready for

Shawna  09:33

like, because I've listened to you the whole time. I'm thinking about. Well, I wanted to ask you about the stereotype of there's a lot of what asked you about but first I'm really thinking about this idea of the stereotyping. What would you say is stereotypical about being, you know, multiracial. Do you think it was more stereotype being attribute had to, you know, one race versus another? Or do you think the stereotypes that you were experiencing, were really having to do with you as a whole person and what and being multiracial?

10:12

Right? That's a really good question. Um, I'd say most of the stereotypes have to deal with me being more of one race, but not fitting what I present as. So like I said, I like to do you know, a big stereotype black people don't like to swim. Well, I am a fish in the water. So like, but I present black. So you know, it's kind of that's one thing or just being outdoors, right? When I lived out west, right, Yellowstone National Park, there was not many people who looked like me, right, who worked out there. So you definitely see it in that s aspect. But I also definitely see like stereotypes being mixed because you know, this whole thing with colorism, right. The lighter skin is more attractive. Oh, you light skinned? And, you know, all this crazy stuff. But, uh, yeah, so that's what I was thinking. But definitely the stereotypes I face is more with me looking one way. But having more, you know, said characteristics of one class. But you know, I guess that goes the opposite way too. Because if I'm in the white community, people like me, because I'm what spicy and I'm, I don't care what I you know what other people think? And so I guess it goes both ways. I definitely hear it more going one way rather than the other.

Shawna  11:50

Okay, well, okay, so I'll tell you a little bit about my, my childhood and, and kind of how I have developed my identity, or let me not even say developed, I am developing because I don't think it really stops actually. Because, right, you know, things around you change too. So I grew up in Anchorage, Alaska, which is very, very diverse, but it's also very far away from what we call the lower 48. You know, so, at the time, you know, there was no internet. You know, I grew up I'm a child of the 70s and 80s. So, no internet. Yeah, TV, but of course, you know, it was limited, like, I remember when we first got cable like so, you know, what I what I experienced, was really just very local. I never really thought about race until much later when I moved to Pennsylvania. So when we moved there, I was about 10 years old or something. And I think, with the exception of one very specific experience that I had an anchorage, which I'm not going to touch on that today with this. That's for another time. But with that exception of that one time, I had never been in any position to see myself as anything different from anybody else. Yes, I recognized that I looked different from others, I had always kind of longed for my hair to be like slippery and swinging and all those kinds of things like, you know, the other girls. And I remember even in Alaska, you know, growing up and being in class, and like the girls would braid each other's hair and stuff, but nobody ever wanted to touch mine or brain mine. Because I had a product in my hair. And it smelled different. It felt different. It looked different, that kind of thing. But I didn't really. I mean, I distinctly remember thinking about that, but it wasn't really I hadn't put my finger on it as to something that was shaping my identity even though looking back I know that it did you know, but in Pennsylvania, I went to ultimately I went to a private school and I don't know what the percentage was, in terms of minorities in general. But I definitely was different there. And I would say the school was relatively diverse. I again, I don't know what the percentage was. But I do remember feeling like I super wanted to fit in it could have been because I was approaching those middle school years to you know that I was beginning to have more of a focus on my appearance and things like that. I always feel like hair could be a season like that's a whole season. 

Oh, yeah. But that that had a lot to do with it. But I also remember being like you remember, I don't know if this was your experience with my like middle school. Like it was impossible to just go to the bathroom by yourself like all girls had to go to the bathroom like together like Okay, let's go but you know, like when you And they'd be on there like, putting on their makeup and stuff. No, I wasn't allowed to wear makeup for, you know, until I was like, I would say probably like eighth grade, maybe my mom was like, you can wear this very, very, very pale I shot. And I was so glad that they had like the tiniest bit of frost, because that was the only reason you'd be able to see it. But I remember like the girls like sharing. By the way, any girls listening don't share your makeup. Is that cool? Is that good for you? But I remember them doing this, you know, and like those colors they would wear tough would never match my skin tone, you know? And I just Yeah, or back to hair. Here we go. Like having a sleepover. I actually didn't even like doing like sleepovers because like, of everything I had to go through to get my hair ready to go to sleep and how they are looking at morning. Oh my god, right. I know. Trying super hard to get up early enough. So I could like do something with it before everybody else wakes up to see that. And I remember a friend of mine, she you know, we stayed at her house and I had forgotten my curling iron this before flat irons right. So I'd forgot my curling iron. She's like you can use mine. But for some reason, like her curling iron didn't get as hot as mine did or like did nothing. Right? I would what?

16:22

I needed that I wore Chris 350 degrees.

Shawna  16:28

Right? I'm like you got it setting on. It wasn't worth it. And then God forbid it should rain because that was right. So humid. I know. And Alaska is super dry. So I never had to worry about that stuff. They're like Pennsylvania. Oh, my goodness. So I that's really when all of my like I began to really see how different I was. One thing you said, super resonated with me. And that was the whole concept of enough. Being black enough being white enough being whatever enough. Right? Right. So I never really fit in with the black girls there too, because I didn't listen to the right music. I didn't get the inside jokes. I they kind of I'm being very general, by the way, because there are plenty of people who did not, who weren't this way to me, I just wanna make that, you know, make sure you understand that. But I think just in talking about belonging and so on, like, how many times did I hear why you talk white? Or right, like something like that, or or they thought. I mean, at least I think they thought that I was trying to be better than them. And I wasn't like I was taught to speak a certain way. And you know, and I liked speaking that way. I liked listening to certain kinds of music. I wasn't really into me like, Okay, I just gotta say, the best music was in the 80s and 90s as I was growing up in middle school itself, but even then, there were definitely differences in the genres and I did sort of lean more towards what would be stereotypically I'm doing air quotes. You can't see me but like, stereotypically white music.

18:16

Like pop more mainstream. Yeah.

Shawna  18:18

Mainstream, totally mainstream. But yeah, right. It's like that. And it was kind of like, you know, you're not listening to our music, or you don't know the song or whatever. So, um, yeah, and that's even with, you know, just looking how I look. But I did identify as black. I just didn't identify with all of the pieces of what would be considered black culture.

18:48

I agree. So when I was in middle school, so my school district in Pennsylvania, it's huge, right? So there's like 14 elementary schools or 50, maybe, maybe more. And then we all come together for middle school. So where I grew up, like my home, is in a very, like, you know, I think we're in like, middle class area. So like my school, I think I was like, one out of three black kids in my class. And you know, don't quote me on that. But it was no more than five, but I'm pretty sure it was three. And then when I went to middle school, and that's when that's when I was really introduced to Okay, well, I'm not as black as those girls, because I was the black kid in my school, right at an elementary school. And then, you know, come sixth grade, I had this like, shift, right where, oh, well, you're not as black as those girls. And yeah, so very similar experiences as what you had described

Shawna  19:51

as black. Right? I think about that, too. And that's kind of where, like, for me I struggled with the colorism piece, right? Because even just as you were kind of looking at yourself, having, you know, come together with these other kids that you hadn't really been with before middle school, I felt like I was kind of under a microscope from other white kids looking at me, because, yeah, I wasn't as black as them, you know? And they kind of, I think, Okay, again, this is my perception. I felt like, in a way, right, they sort of felt superior to me, like, they had a very firm grasp on their identity, who they were, you know, and, and while, you know, we can, we can talk about privilege, too. And I recognize that because of our society, there are certain privileges that just society has afforded to people like give the The wider you are, unfortunately. And I think that, you know, even though I had How do I want to say, like, I didn't feel that I was trying to capitalize on any of that, because I wasn't even really recognizing it. You know, until a certain point in my life, I felt like that was sort of being imposed on me like you that like, it was almost an accusation, like, you think you're cute. You think you're this, you do this, you didn't. I'm like, Dude, I'm just trying to go to school. I don't even know. And like, also, can I just be friends? Like, you know, so? Yeah, it was always a struggle to like, find people who I could number one, like, relate to, and who got me and to, like, I didn't have to defend myself for who I was, like, I was just born this way. Go. Like, I'm sorry. I was just trying to make it just like you are. But um, yeah, that was tough for me growing up.

22:04

And then I think another know what we're talking about school and that, right? So you come in contact with other students who are biracial. And maybe you know, they're the same orientation as you, right? 50%, black, 50% white. But we are a spectrum. So like, I can recall this one girl, she's same as me. 50%, black, 50%, white, but she was darker than me. And she had more coarse hair than me. So she could definitely fit into that crowd more. In the same breath. I can remember this other girl who I'm still friends with 50% Black 50% why she is so light skinned. And she has less like a ringlets than me. So she definitely could fit in the the white crowd better than me. So like, just because 50% 50% There is such a wide spectrum of what you can look like, and then what your journey is

Shawna  23:05

through. Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with that. Because nobody's going to know unless you tell them, right. So everything is kind of initially depending on how you present and how they perceive you. So Wow.

23:23

And on that note, that's always why. So I never say I'm biracial, or I never, you know, I never say I'm white, because I'm the initial glance, no one's ever going to be like, Shannon, you're white. Because, you know, a lot of people are surprised that I have a white mother. You know, that's getting better. Now, you know, people are more familiar with being biracial. But you know, it's still majority say, oh, my gosh, you have a white mother, I would never have known, you know, so. Just growing up, I definitely if anyone asked my race, I'm always, I always say black, because are African American. And, you know, I do explain that I have a black mother, or a black father and white mother. But, you know, if I have to choose one, you know, sometimes on these boxes, we have to choose one instead of multiple. I always say black because there's no way if you look at me that you're gonna be like, Oh, she's white.

Shawna  24:20

So that's so interesting. Okay, so the census is coming up next year, right, like it's on the decade, and it has gone through some changes because of that people having to choose, and I always think about Barack Obama. And right now, of course, like Kamala Harris is big in the news for the same reason, the whole idea of hyper dissent and just in like, really choosing one versus embracing all and a lot of times it's just easier, like if I were to say, because people ask me all the time, and you know, some of those dreaded questions like What are you? Or what's your nationality? I'm like, I'm American. And, you know, or your ethnicity or heritage, all those questions because people are curious, and they don't really know what I am looking at me, but what my racial background is and things like that. And honestly, like, nowadays, depending on who I'm speaking to, I do kind of explain a bit of it. But growing up, like I didn't even fully understand. And so, my, you know, I like asked my mom, I'd be like, so people want to know what I am, or am I mixed mom? Or am I you know, and my mom would just be like, are you black? Like, I'm black? So, that's how I would say, and then every time it's like an argument, so what are you? What's your background? Like? Well, I'm black. They're like, really black, right?

25:45

I have to justify, right?

Shawna  25:47

Oh, my God. It's like, okay, here we go. So, you know, the, I don't know, if it was different for you growing up are the same sort of descriptors around but when I was growing up was like, they use terms like Heinz 57. Because, you know, like, the sauce is all the different stuff at it, right? Like, I'm a high 27. Or, I would just say like, oh, I have lots of stuff going on. And like, we don't have enough time for me to talk about at all because mainly, to be honest with you, like I didn't even know all of it. I knew, like anecdotally we a little bit. And, and I would go like when we would fly from Alaska to Pennsylvania to family reunions and stuff like that spectrum, right. Like my whole family. Like, we range from, you know, very dark brown skin to blonde blue eyed cousins, you know? And like, people wouldn't, people would actually question my mom do we have because we look so different. You know, they'd be like, Oh, that's your mom. Like, yeah,

26:43

that's. That's my mom. Oh, yeah. I remember. Oh, my gosh, I guess I you know, all these stories are coming back now. Right. But I remember going to my mother's company picnic, and I was playing with, you know, a white little girl, you know, as a little girl, and you know, and then my mom came up, and then she asked if I was adopted? Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's happened a few times. But that that instance, sticks out in my mind,

Shawna  27:13

I totally believe that. So I'm in an interracial marriage, my my husband's white. And once when our son was born, he was like, still in a stroller. And this isn't Alaska. We were at a mall. And he went to look at something and I went to some jewelry store with my son, you know, and stroller and this lady's Oh, he's so cute, you know, as well, thank you. And she said, it's so nice when couples can adopt, you know? Oh, he was born like my son. He was born with like, platinum blonde hair and blue eyes, you know? Not at all looking like me. I was like, That is nice. When they can adopt. I put it in all the work on this one, though. You know, like, I know, it's, it's a strange thing to feel like you have to defend or explain yourself, you know? I don't know. Do you think it's changing? Do you think like, I mean, because demographics are changing. Now, there's a lot more interracial couples and resulting multiracial people. Do you feel like, like things are changing?

28:22

Oh, so you know, from the outside, or like, okay, so I have kind of two perspectives on this. So like, looking at society, I think it's getting better. But that being said, like, me, like kind of looking into the dating scene, some like, I'm still very nervous to like, if I were to date a white dude, like, I just know, there's so many stigmas still out there. I guess. Like, I don't really know, I still think I still worry a lot about

Shawna  28:53

that stuff about, like dating interracially

28:56

Yeah. So if I were to date a white dude, like, what that would come off one to like, I guess others and and then like, to him what he expects out of a biracial relationship. And then like, to his parents, I will say like, the people I'm not worried about are my family because, you know, they've shown to be supportive, over whatever reason. And then also, just on the flip of the hand of that, what if I date a black dude, right? You know, there's also expectations there, you're, you're know you're mixed or and then going back to the stereotypes, you know, I like, you know, I'm doing quotes, white people stuff. I like going hiking. I like swimming, you know, right. So how do I fit in there? It's just, you know, that's a whole nother episode.

Shawna  29:48

Oh, yeah, it is. Relationships, right. But it's good to have sort of, you know, a jumping off place to kind of think about all these things, you know, I think Sometimes, you know, when when you clearly identify with a very specific, racially demographic group, it's simpler. Not not saying life is simpler, right? Because we have challenges all the time. But specifically with identity, because of like what you said, you know, you're, you're considering things that probably other people wouldn't consider. Now, I know that people who identify mono racially as black or white or whatever, you know, not just black or white, you know, there's definitely other ways. But if you identify mono racially, and you date outside of that group, I, you know, I think we would all have those very similar things to consider, like I did, I mean, even though I look the way I look, I, like I said, I've always identified as black. So, you know, my husband, he's from the Midwest, and, you know, he was, you know, working in Alaska when we met, and I didn't know his family, you know, we started dating apart like, we weren't in our own, you know, like, in the same hometown, like, that was my hometown, he was not from there. So I had no idea. Well, I had a gut feeling of what it would be like, you know, for him to introduce me to his family. And, you know, of course, you know, as we, you know, our relationship progressed. I, we talked about those things. I don't know. So I was thinking, Do you think that there? I mean, I have noticed, at least in the media, that there is more representation these days, you know, of, of interracial couples, and multiracial people, like I see it in commercials and, and to be honest with you, I'm like, cheering Oh, like, oh, because like, you know, you were talking about earlier, you know, at school, and people looking like, you are not looking like you. And so I am totally digging, like, you're seeing the commercials with interracial couples of multiracial, multiracial people. I don't know, if it's like changing some of the stereotypes that people have out there, I have to get to talk in more people about that. But I know, for me personally, it feels so good to see people looking more like me, or being in my similar social situation. Because I guess it makes me have hope that other people seeing it, you know, even if they don't relate to that directly, just having that exposure will kind of change those stereotypes.

32:38

Right? And that's what I think, you know, just being exposed to it more, is gonna make it more not out of the ordinary to see it, you know, seeing it on TV will definitely help.

Shawna  32:52

Yeah, I think that that has definitely shaped or played a part in the shaping of my identity in adulthood. Because I haven't I have been growing up, you know, I was always quite insecure about my appearance, or, you know, depending on who I was, with that whole enough concept, you know, like, you know, gosh, you know, I'm with these folks. And I'm just not black. And like, I can't relate to all of these things, or, you know, I'm in a predominantly white social situation. And, like, I definitely stand out. And I think in some ways, like, that caused some self sabotage, because I think I assumed that I was being looked at a certain way or perceived a certain way. Or maybe for me, I felt that I didn't fit in and the people around me, like, they didn't care, you know, but I thought that, you know, it was making a difference, just because of that anxiety about never, you know, always worrying about not fitting in. And I don't know, as I have gotten older, and I see that representation, it makes me feel more comfortable to be me, like, there was a time like, I was not going to anywhere with my hair curly. That's stuff had to be beaten into submission, like, you know, so, but now I'm like, I mean, I'm not 100% there yet, but it's changing. So I wondered like, with you, you know, just because, you know, you been I grew up kind of different times and in different places. Do you find that your your, your, the development of your identity has been changing and if so, in what ways?

34:44

So I definitely feel like my, my journey, it's been up and down, and I mean, yeah, so, you know, in elementary school, high school, middle school, you It was just about fitting in, you know, whether that's your hair, right? That's usually what it came back to hair. And just like where you fit in who you should be hanging out with how you talk that but then once I got a grip on that, and how, for me currently, it's mostly about how I am perceived in the workplace, you know. So moving into what I do, I'm a Business psychology major, about to be going into a very corporate world where women are still paid a little bit less, and black people are paid a little bit less, and being black and a woman are paid even less, right. So really, now my focus in my identity is how I'm seen in the workplace, and how, in figuring out how to close that gap, figuring out how to make myself competitive, and seen as equals. I'm very fortunate to work at a company right now where I'm doing some work with a client. And it's just like going in there. One, I'm young too. So being made to see like, I have experience in it, but then also like making that not an issue, you know, and there's this whole big thing on implicit bias. So my shift in my identity has, I'd say there's been a big shift within the past year, and just being perceptive and socially aware of like, where I fall on that, right, because it is changing. But we're not where we need to be as a society.

Shawna  36:41

What do you think it would take to get there? Do you think it's just more exposure?

36:47

More exposure, you know, what else? Can you do more exposure equals more, except exception. Except? Yeah, acceptance. Exactly. Because if you just don't see it, it's hard to accept that right. You know, I think it's getting better. I couldn't even imagine, you know, this stuff changes, I feel like in five years stems, right. Because, like, black hair wasn't even cool. Up until, like, seven years ago, now, we've had all these like, Girl movements, you know, and how we're getting into more of the workplace with like, all this equal pay, right? Equal pay, that's a big thing right now, at least for like the women's soccer team. But that's kind of putting a light to it all across the spectrum, right, equal pay for equal work. But yeah, so it goes through phases, right, stuff gets bigger right now. I think we're heading in a good direction. I just think there's a lot more to go corporate America still primarily predominantly white males, you know, so it's just working up that ladder and getting to it. And showing that we are capable, that's, that goes for, you know, me as a black woman, but that goes for black people and for women, you know, and ethnically Right, yeah, women, right, not just black, you know, Mexican American, you know, there's Asian American,

Shawna  38:18

that for sure. Like there is, there is definitely an awakening happening, I think in corporate America, when it comes to diversity and inclusion. And, you know, I my hope is, you know, it's, that's the focus of my, my program, you know, that I'm working on, I love that this awakening is happening. And I know that sometimes it happens in stages. So for some, for some businesses, you know, it's definitely a strategy, you know, corporate responsibility, social, you know, social responsibility, they want to show that they're taking steps to, you know, do what's right. But you also hope that not only there that they, you know, talk the talk, but that they believe in it, so that when they walk the walk, it's genuine and authentic, you know,

39:08

they believe in it and the inclusion, right, I can be checking all the boxes, but it doesn't mean that we're utilizing our differences, and, you know, furthering our company for that, you know, the benefits to diversity is just having more perspectives, to take on different issues, it increases your problem solving. But without inclusion, what is the diversity of indirectly?

Shawna  39:30

Hey, before we close this episode of since this is our first one together, I want to give you the chance to give a shout out to Is there anyone that you could think of that you'd like to recognize for but you know, giving you a sense of belonging, you know, because this the whole idea here is that, you know, we recognize our differences, but we are including all about inclusion, you know, and that having that sense of belonging, so, do you have a specific time and you know, in your life When you know, someone just made that difference to you, and you really, truly felt included.

40:07

You know, I can't really trace it back to any, you know, any instance or anything but big shout out to my parents, right? They taught me that I can do whatever I want, and do whatever I want. Um, you know, and that's made the difference, right? Moving in the world. Knowing how I'm perceived by other people, but knowing that, hell it doesn't matter what color I am, I can move up in this business or move up in whatever I'm doing, right sports doesn't matter. So big shout out to them.

Shawna  40:44

All right. Well, thank you so much. Looking forward to it. Well, that's the show for today. Thank you so much for listening. Remember, you can reach out to me at dr@shawnigan.com and other places on the web, and I look forward to hearing from you so until next time, stay safe, share, smile, and remember to make someone feel love y'all. Talk to you soon.