Growing Up Ambiguously - Across the Generations

Father and Daughter, both multiracial, come together this week to talk about what it was like growing up during their time. Shannon and I weigh in as Sarah Bacerra, an activist and with Women's Marches, and Troy Chapman, jazz guitarist, discuss the differences and the similarities of their experiences.

Sarah Bacerra is an inclusion advocate, speaker, and activist in San Diego, CA. She has spent much of her career in leadership development and learning effectiveness, specifically through the lens of fostering belonging in organizations. 

With a focus on intersectional activism, Sarah has served on the board for Women’s March San Diego since 2017 and in 2019 served as the March Co-Director. As a Learning & Performance Consultant for ELM Learning, she specializes in creative learning experiences that inspire growth and change in the world’s leading organizations.

Sarah has had the privilege of working with hundreds of non-profits, entrepreneurs, and startups, all with an eye to ensuring inclusivity and respect for all voices. Sarah’s daily inspiration are her two daughters, Lily and Ruby.

Troy Chapman is a jazz guitarist...and Sarah’s dad. Based on Whidbey Island, WA, Troy can be found playing gypsy jazz with The Hot Club of Troy, modern jazz guitar with The Troy Chapman Group and Baroque Guitar with The Island Consort. Alongside collaborator Andre Feriante, Troy developed the captivating show “Cythara: The History of the World According to the Guitar,” a fascinating ride through musical history. As you might have guessed, Troy likes to play guitar.

If this is your first time with OTC, check out EPISODE 1: START HERE for more background on the show.

Our True Colors is sponsored by True Culture Coaching & Consulting. Head to our website to find out how True Culture Coaching and Consulting can support you and your organization. You can find us at truecultureconsulting.com where you can also contact us to schedule a free consultation.

Transcript

Shawna  00:01
Hey guys, it's a brand new day. It's a brand new year. It's a brand new decade. What are you gonna do with it? It feels like it's gonna be pretty fantastic. I don't know, I can feel it in my bones. Good stuff good feels, I would love for you to continue supporting the show. Thank you for joining me. Thank you for sharing. And thank you so much for being there. Please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And also, please leave a rating and review so that others knew to tribe and true know what all the good stuffs about and the great stuff they're going to hear. If you want to share. If you want to give some feedback or even, I don't know, maybe you want to be a guest. You can write to me at tribe at shawnagann.com. Or if you feel so inclined, you can call me at 202-670-3323 this episode we'll be talking with Troy Chapman and his daughter Sarah Bacerra. And we will be taking a look at their experiences growing up racially ambiguously across the generations. Shannon's with me this week to share her perspective too, and to join in this great conversation between father and daughter. Enjoy.

Intro  01:21
Welcome to tribe and true hosted by Shawna Gann. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial riddle, an ethnic Enigma and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.

Shawna  01:38
Welcome, everyone. I am so glad to be back. And I've got Shannon with me again. Hey, Shannon. 

Shannon  01:44
Hi.

Shawna  01:45
Today, we're super excited to talk about what it's like to have multiracial experiences or racially ambiguous experiences, when you're thinking about it from different generational perspectives. So some of you might remember that Shannon and I really are from different generations, I have always considered myself to be, I shouldn't say always, I now consider myself to be xenial. I guess that's how you say it. Technically, according to different articles and things that you read, I fall into Gen X, but I'm on that tail end, where like some of my cousins who are really deep in that range are about 10 years older than me, but I'm not quite a millennial, so. And Shannon, you said,

Shannon  02:31
Um, I, you know, I say I'm a millennial, and I agree with that. But same as you based on the different articles you read, I could also be considered z, 

Shawna  02:44
Gen Z. 

Shannon  02:45
Yeah,

Shawna  02:46
Always on that CUSP. So I think that's pretty cool. Because as we talk about things, we might have some experiences that are similar, but maybe depending on when we grew up, or kind of where we are in our life stages. Right now things are looking a little bit differently. With that in mind, I am so happy to introduce my guests for today. I'd first like to introduce Sarah Bacerra. She as an inclusion advocate, a speaker and an activist in San Diego, California. She has spent much of her career in leadership development and learning effectiveness, specifically through the lens of fostering belonging and organizations. I think that rocks because our show is all about fostering that sense of belonging. She also has a focus on intersectional activism, we have spoken about intersectionality a bit in the show. intersectionality is the concept of seeing a person for all of their different facets. So for example, this is something that Shannon and I have spoken about to where you might face a particular challenge as a marginalized person, because you're a woman, but then you layer on that being a black woman, or you might think of someone who might be marginalized due to their sexuality, or their their gender identity, etc. So looking at a person and how all of those different facets of their identity intersect. So Sarah focuses on intersectional activism, and she's served on the board for Women's March, San Diego since 2017. And in 2019, she served as the march co director. Wow, super excited to have you Sarah. Welcome.

Sarah  04:32
Thank you, Shawna, I'm very, very happy to be here and to be having this conversation today.

Shawna  04:37
I'm glad you're here. When Sara reached out to me, we talked about intersectionality a bit and part of that conversation had to do with generations and how we experience things from different time periods growing up and she wanted me to meet her dad and use this opportunity to speak with him about his experiences. So I'm also happy to welcome Troy Chapman. Hey Troy. 

Troy  05:05
Hello, how you doing Shawna? 
Shawna  05:06
Great, I'm doing really great and I'm so glad you're joining us. Troy is a jazz guitarist based on Whidbey Island in Washington State. And he can be found playing gypsy jazz with the hot club of Troy, modern jazz guitar with the Troy Chapman group and Baroque guitar with the island concert alongside his collaborator, Andre Ferranti. Roger. 

Andre  05:26
Excellent. Hey, Andre will be very pleased. 

Shawna  05:32
Alongside Andre Troy, develop the captivating show sithara the history of the world according to the guitar, which is a fascinating ride through musical history. 

Troy  05:44
Yes, indeed, 

Shawna  05:45
Trey, I guess you'd like to play guitar?

Troy  05:46
Yeah, I have a whole bunch of them. From all time periods.

Shawna  05:52
So cool. 

Andre  05:53
That's pretty much been what I've done, or been interested in for my entire life. So

Shawna  05:58
Yeah, I saw I saw a little bit of your background. You got your first guitar when you were seven?

Andre  06:05
Yes, yes. And then my parents immediately got divorced. And that ended that for a few years.

Shawna  06:12
But then you picked it up again. 

Andre  06:14
And then I was on my way. 

Shawna  06:15
Here we are. Awesome. Very cool, 

Troy  06:20  
Very happy. 

Shawna  06:21
Our conversation today really is going to focus on you and your daughter, Sarah, and your experiences growing up. And Sarah, I'm super interested in your perspectives, too, because you said that you have your daily inspirations and your two daughters Lily and Ruby, right? 

Sarah  06:41
That's true. 

Shawna  06:42
Yeah. So Lily is nine years old. And Ruby is six years old. 

Sarah  06:49
Mm hmm. Yeah. And they are quite a blend. They're very multiracial, also. So it's, this may be a conversation we, the three of us may be having in 20 years. So I'm yeah, to have this today with my dad, because we've never really talked about it. Not a lot anyways, and so I'm hearing it for the first time, too.

Troy  07:13
Okay, I'm sort of hoping that we're not talking about this in 30 years. 

Sarah  07:19
True. Very true, 

Troy  07:21
Kind of a ridiculous thing to talk about. In the grand scheme of things.

Shawna  07:26
Yeah. Shannon and I have been discussing that a bit. We're wondering where things are going. There's sort of this juxtaposition right now between, you know, a push for the appreciation of equity, and equality and, and this embracing of multicultural or multiracial experiences across the board. You know, all folks, while we are also going through this weird time in our country where there's this divisiveness, so yeah, it's been interesting. 

Troy  08:03
I was watching something on TV TV the other day, and I saw an episode. I don't even know where we're going with this conversation. But I'll throw this out there.

Shawna  08:12
That's how it goes. That's how it works.

Troy  08:15
I was scrolling through stuff on Hulu. And I came across the TV program blackish. And we watched like the first couple seasons, because it's very interesting and relatively timely back when it first came out. And then I realized that they came out with another, another spin off of blackish. I don't remember what it was called. But the whole thing, as far as I can tell, was them. Talking about exactly what we're talking about right now, and how the mom and blackish rainbow tracee. Ellis Ross, how her generation was the first generation to have to actually deal with this, which point I put my shoe through the TV set.

Shawna  09:00
Right.

Troy  09:01
I thought that was kind of silly. And why would you even say something like that when people have been going through this for 10s? if not hundreds of generations?

Shawna  09:12
Exactly.

Troy  09:14
There's the whole history of the United States that's based on people who were multiracial and didn't have to deal with that. So something we've managed to to ignore for a really long time.

Shawna  09:27
Or they have dealt with it but in different ways, right? Shouldn't have been ignored. So the show is mixed ish. And Shannon and I talk about it a lot too.

Troy  09:37
Yeah. My issue with Yes, that that it was ridiculous to say that this started or to imply that this started in like 1984 1985. And now we're, it's been going on forever. 

Shawna  09:49
No actually, it's a perfect segue. Because I wanted to ask you, Troy, can you tell us a little bit about what it was like for you growing up but what maybe if you don't mind sharing A bit about your family, your parents and, and your experiences.

Troy  10:05
Okay. My I was born in 1959. So I guess I'm a boomer, although when I was younger, I wasn't a boomer, I got shoved into that Boomer category sometime over the last 20 years or so. But anyway, I was born in 1959. My dad is black. He was born in Tennessee. But his family moved to Pennsylvania when he was young. He had one brother, my grandmother, and my grandfather on my dad's side, lived in New York, Pennsylvania, and my grandfather was the mortician, The Undertaker, whatever terminology you want to use for the city of York. He came by that because he went up to visit somebody in New York, Pennsylvania. When he was in his 20s, or 30s, and realized that they had there was no one in New York to bury the black population. So he and his wife moved there to do that. When I was a kid, I would go to York, and they had just a beautiful house, a beautiful townhouse that had the mortuary in the on the first floor. And that scared the living hell out of me to go downstairs. Now, it does not look like that in New York anymore, unfortunately. And it appears as though York, that section of Pennsylvania has not gotten appreciably better, at least in these terms over the last 40 or 50 years. So anyway, that's my grandparents. My mom was a Quaker from Philadelphia. And she was she's white. Obviously, my mom's side of the family is mostly French, and English. And I had a 23andme done, and I guess I'm 60%, French, English, European and 40%, African gunnies someplace in there. They haven't gotten accurate enough on those things. Yeah. So. So my parents got married in 1959. There was still this was this was prior to the loving case in Virginia, obviously, it was not illegal in Pennsylvania, to marry someone of a different race, like it wasn't a lot of other states as IE, Virginia. They got married at a Quaker meeting house and Pennsylvania, and were married for about seven years. And then my parents got divorced and split up. So what do you want me to go from there?

Shawna  12:42
Well, you definitely have a rich background. And that's really cool that you have so many details about your grandparents, and, and so on. So we do have some connections. I think it'll be fun as we have our discussion. So I am from Anchorage, Alaska, but a lot of my family is from Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, and Ohio,

Troy  13::03
I think it is a really nice place about three months out of the years. 

Shawna  13:09
It's it's nice other times of the year to if you're if you're willing to do all of your business between the hours of say 10am and 230 to three in the winter, and no, it's a it is a great place. But I did fly back and forth between anchorage and Pennsylvania. A lot of summers, and then I lived in Pittsburgh, or the areas surrounding Pittsburgh for a small time for about six years. I guess before my my mother decided we would head back up to Anchorage again. And so maybe I'll circle back to some of your experiences in Pennsylvania because I definitely experienced things differently living there than I did in Alaska. So

Troy  13:55
Yeah, I can understand that completely. I actually grew up on the the south eastern corner of Pennsylvania outside about 40 miles outside of Philadelphia and Chester County, Pennsylvania, which is a completely different state than Where are you? We're living in Pittsburgh, Western Pennsylvania, especially more so back in those days when I was two completely different things are pretty different now. But

Shannon  14:24
So yeah, so for me, I actually grew up in chambersburg, Pennsylvania, so about an hour and 20 minutes old from New York. And actually funny enough, my dad is on a black golfing league out of New York, Pennsylvania, shout out to the white BGA but as far as what you said about the they haven't come as close as they can as far as diversity right 

Troy  14:56
No I am helping you in going backwards as far as I can tell but huh 

Shannon  14:49
I know that Yeah, Chester County being a little closer to Philly, you definitely get a little bit of a different you know, tastes there as far as diversity and differences. 

Troy  15:15
Well, when I was when I was a kid I grew up in, in Chester County, like I said, but I grew up way it was very, very rural. Basically, I grew up I lived on a farm until I was seven, not a working farm. But I lived in like a big farmhouse across from cornfields. So I didn't have to deal with really anything, my parents were there. So Oh, and since I was a kid, there was nothing unusual about my parents. And my grandparents were there. And I would go to school and all my friends were at school, there weren't a whole lot of other black kids. When I was in elementary school, I don't know whether there were any, but it was not something that I paid really close attention to. Then at the age of seven, going on to eight, my dad was in the Peace Corps, and we moved to India for a year. So that changed my whole perspective on a whole lot of things, even at seven or eight years old that how people live, how the world is different, how people are different, and how there's a lot of people that have a hell of a lot worse off than we do. Even if we're being treated differently, there's still a hell of a lot of people in the world that that get treated way worse. And they're not different. So there's a whole a whole gamut of things going on there. So when I got back from India, that's when I was in seventh and eighth grade was when I first started going to or actually in fourth and fifth grade. We lived in Washington DC. And it was fairly diverse. I think there was another. I know there was another black kid in my school when I was in fifth and sixth grade and it still wasn't an issue. And in seventh and eighth grade I moved to Kennett square, I went to school in Kennett square, Pennsylvania. And that was a much more diverse school. That was the first time that I had went to a school that actually had a black population and Hispanic population and an Italian population and a white population. That was probably the first place I went where people had different names for each group, as we know,

Shawna  17:25
Wow. So Troy, I wanted to go back to something that you said, when you talked about growing up in your younger years at school, and then later when you mentioned your seventh and eighth grade kind of middle school, middle school years. You said both times that you were talking about the other black kids. So 

Troy  17:47
Yeah, 

Shawna  17:48
Oh, kid, my bad. 

Troy  17:52
That was usually the case. 

Shawna  17:54
Gotcha. Okay. So I would like to focus on the word other. Does that mean that growing up you identified as black? Or did you think of yourself as being biracial or multiracial?

Troy  18:13
I think of myself as black. And I thought of the thought of it that way. Most of my life, mostly because that's the way I was raised. And that's the way my dad raised me. My dad raised me as a black male, are and so that I understood that. And I thought that, and I do I thought then, and I still think now that is actually actually correct. I have always sort of gone by the idea that if you have been called the N word in your life, at any point, then you get to identify as black. So I think it's pretty good standard. One that I hope we don't hold up for very much longer, but it's a pretty telling choice. Yeah. So

Shawna  19:11
Yeah, no, I asked that question. Because Shannon and I have discussed the concept of hypo descent quite a bit, actually, and how that's something that people will place on others, but then also something that we attribute to ourselves. So when people see me, oftentimes, they're pretty confused there. They're not sure how they want to categorize me racially. But there's a lot of guesses oftentimes, but I have always just identified as black as well, even though I know there's a lot of stuff. And in my background, too. It's just I was raised that way. Even though I looked quite different than my my family in many ways. So, Sarah, I'd like to bring you into the conversation. Now that your dad's kind of He's given us the framework work I guess, of of his childhood, and you know where he's been at? Do you have any thoughts or any questions for him right now? 

Sarah  20:10
Hmm, this is some of this I heard I've heard before. And some of it's new. So it's really cool for me to hear from this vantage point of the makeup of elementary school and middle school. And when you started to notice, and especially the India, perspective that you gained, that really set things in motion for how you viewed the world. And so with, with your upbringing, with granddad and, and Grandma, I'd love to hear a little bit more about how that that raising of a blackmail piece and how was that a part of home life and a part of Quaker life, if that played an impact, I would, I would like to hear a little bit more about the Quaker piece, too. So I'm just I'm just taking it all in and wanting to, to hear a little bit more.

Troy  21:07
I went a lot of different places. 

Sarah  21:09
I know you did. 

Troy  21:10
I'm still only in seventh grade, seventh sixth, 50 years ago, well, um, well, for me, it was I grew up in two completely different places. And after my parents got divorced, when I was seven, I have four siblings, I have a brother, who was the offspring of my mom and dad, I have one sister, who is the offspring of my mom and the adopted offspring of my mom and dad. And I have two other sisters from my dad's second and third marriage. So there's five of us. But my brother and I grew up together. We're only a few years apart. So we would spend our summers with my mom. And my mom, my mom is was raised a Quaker and as a Quaker, to this day from the Society of Friends. So we grew up with my mom, in a in a Quaker environment. And during the summer in my dad in the during the school year, we'd go to school wherever he was working in a completely different environment. So my mom raised us as a Quaker, and my dad raised us in a in a different way. So we have both we did both of those things. I moved to Canada permanently when I was 13, and started going to westmount High School in Montreal. And that was the first time the that being black really had any kind of effect, not in a negative way. But But when I got to school, I told them, I was from Philadelphia. And because I looked black, and I was from Philadelphia, that gave me a very high, very high cachet. Nobody was going to mess with the black guy from Philadelphia. And I thought, that's interesting. I think I'll go with that. Wow, I had any intention of doing anything. But hey, if people want to feel that way, don't mess with me. Okay. I can live with that. So, but it was it was an example of the power that those kind of images and expectations come with either in a positive way or more light more usually in a very negative way that just happened to be a positive way that I was willing to latch on to

Shawna  23:33
Troy, did you find that you had kind of, would you change your behavior a little bit depending upon where you were so like, if you were in the Quaker community versus in the school, you know, where your dad was working or, or your time in Canada? Did you sort of adjust how you presented yourself depending upon where you were and who you were with?

Troy  23:56
No, I, when I was living in Canada with with with my mom and going to Quaker, Quaker things, Quaker ism, the Society of Friends has always been extraordinarily diverse and accepting and liberal and all that. So there is there's always been well, for a long time, there's been black membership of the Society of Friends. There's no issues of racism, or discrimination in Quakers of the society friends is the exact opposite. They've spent centuries working to end that sort of thing. So no, I didn't change there. And then when I was living with my dad, I never I never lived in a a holy or majority black community. Just by chance that's, I just never did. I worked and lived in Holi with my parents I worked in in Holi. black communities. And when I was doing that I didn't change either, because I felt, um, this is just who I either place was just who I was, it didn't make any difference. I was not not accepted by the black community, and I was not not accepted by the great community. So I didn't have to change. It was pretty obvious that I was black.

Shawna  25:24
Okay. Well, Sarah, how does that compare to your experiences growing up? Maybe you could tell us a little bit about how you present and how people tend to perceive you. And what that's been like for you. In your childhood is one. 

Sarah  25:45
Yeah. Well, you mentioned the term hypo descent, and I had to look it up, because it's the first time I've heard it. But yes, that's exactly kind of what I fell into is what I was categorized by at face value. As a kid, I was darker in complex than I am now. But I think I still. So felt like I was struggling to two worlds a little bit at all times in terms of one, I was with my mom and sister a lot, and they are lighter in complex than I. And so when I when it was just the three of us, I quite often felt others in my own in that trio. Are people are people thinking that I'm adopted, that I'm not just brought in. And not actually, or maybe I'm a friend of my sisters, stuff like that, where I wasn't, I didn't harp on it too much as a kid, but it was something that I thought about. And then when I'd be out with my dad, I felt I didn't feel that just because our skin color matched better. And so. And I didn't really think about identity too much until I got into school. And mostly as a result of having to define myself. I thought about when I was thinking and reflecting about what I might say, in this conversation, or things that have shaped how I think about race and my own identity is the check boxes when you're doing us when you were doing a standardized testing in elementary school, I think was really the first time I thought that I had to pick one and define myself because back then, in the early 90s, I'm 34. Now so elementary school was early 90s, for me, and they didn't have two or more races as an option. They didn't have multiracial as an option you had white, or Caucasian or black, and a few others too. But you for me, it was a wow. Now I actually have to decide who who I am as well. I don't know, six year old seven year old. And I remember being young. And asking my dad, I don't know if you I it's just something I think about sometimes is I asked him, so when I'm taking these tests that I have to fill out this checkbox, which would, what should I pick? And I remember you saying, just pick whatever you feel like that day. And I mean, it's it's a funny way to tell a kid that but it was more so him empowering me to say like, what what do you feel like you are? And maybe that changes over time, maybe maybe at this point in your life, you're feeling more connected. And it's not fair that you have to choose in that way. But I thought I still think about that sometimes is when you set that just because it was giving me permission to decide for myself, not you telling me or anyone else telling me. 

Shannon  28:56
That's a good point. I like that. 

Troy  28:57
Well, that's very good. But I remember telling you that you and your sister were black, regardless of what you thought that was that happened to be the case.

Sarah  29:05
Right? But we're also white, we're both like, we're both. So you do you did for sure. But I think at that time, and probably that moment in whatever time it was, this is just one isolated conversation. It's not like that defined how I identify myself, but I thought about that and the way I interpreted it was no one can make that decision for you. 

Shawna  29:33
So what decision did you make that day? Do you remember? 

Sarah  29:36
Oh, I think no, From then on, I started picking blacker African however they read it but yeah, however they wrote it then but I started to identify internally as black. 

Shawna  29:50
So is that how you identify now? 

Sarah  29:51
I identify as biracial.

Troy  29:55
The whole idea of like how you present yourself is so, is so new even the term. I mean, I know that African Americans were presenting as white for the last few 100 years when they could. But the idea that you would have a choice in in how you want to present yourself, I never felt as though I had any choice in the matter. I couldn't present myself as being white. I could fit in extraordinarily well, with white company and with with most people, but no one would ever mistake me for being for being white. They mistake me constantly for being Italian and Greek, or some some, quote unquote swarthy nationality. Because I guess, 

Shawna  31:02  
Exotic

Troy  31:03
Sorry. 

Shawna  31:04
I said, exotic. That's what I always hear. Oh, that's so exotic. 

Troy  31:10
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's, that's an old one. Yeah, for sure. The idea of I 55 years of being asked, Where are you from? Jesus, I'm tired of that. From Pennsylvania 

Shawna  31:27
Yeah

Troy  31:28
It was nice when Obama was elected president in very many, many, many ways. But it was great when he got president because then I get that. And then I could just say, my brother, and I could both just say, hey, just like Obama. There you go, you are next. And that's, that's what's happening. 

Shawna  31:46
Right, so Shannon, and I actually talked about Obama, when Sarah, this is great for you to win when we were discussing this, this idea of hypo descent, basically, it's terrible to think about it, but the reason it's descent is because of the social hierarchy, right? So when you think about society in America, you know, the white population has always kind of had this privilege, legally for a very long time. And even though we no longer really live in a time of segregation, and things like that, that, that doesn't stop some of the experiences that people have, right. So it was this whole idea of the one drop of blood, 

Troy  32:29
Mm hmm. 

Shawna  32:30
Back, when we were in talking about Jim Crow days, people had to decide where was the line when it came to who would get certain rights. And so it really just carried over from slavery. When there were slave owners who would have children with their slaves, those children oftentimes were lighter, they had more of the phenotypical, or outwardly presenting features that were closer to white than black, or, or so on. But they couldn't be considered white, it just wasn't going to happen. So they would still be part of that slave trade, unfortunately. And that is kind of how that rolled over into, even in the days of Jim Crow, where slavery was gone. But there were still segregation, there still had to be some delineation in the in the eyes of the law as to who got which rights. But even though all of that is gone, we still sort of see that either something like Troy and I both do and ourselves. So biracial, multiracial, no matter what 23 and me or ancestry DNA says, if a person identifies that way, like I just identify as a mono racial black person, even though I know I'm technically not, and I know, I don't look like that to a lot of people. That is me kind of attributing that hypo descent to myself, and then other folks will do that, too. Like, my family considers me black, or people definitely don't see me as white. So it's sort of that idea. So I loved when I love having the conversation when Obama was elected, or even when he was a candidate, and people would say, oh, first black president, and I'm like, but is he though? I mean, he is. He certainly presents outwardly that way. And, I mean, I considered him that way, too. But 

Shannon  34:26
We just have so many similarities. 

Troy  34:28
You and Shawn, or you and Obama?

Shannon  34:31
Me and your daughter?

Troy  34:32
Okay

Shannon  34:34
Right. I mean, it was back to testing I had to choose right. And I went to elementary school in the early 2000s. So and I feel like I definitely probably identified black up until it came more accepting and I could put two boxes. I've read I remembered having conversations with my parents of well, what I am I. So it just brought back floods of memories. And I also, you know, moving more into our conversation, I see Obama as the first black president. And he can I'll definitely take him as the token of that even though yeah, his mom was white. So there's a lot of similarities across the board.

Troy  35:19
Well, think of a term your son and you were just talking about the one drop of blood thing. But think about the terms that they use. mulatto mulatto, and the

Shawna  35:33
Ooh yeah, octoroon 
Troy  35:35
Octoroon, how octoroon is what if that's your brand

Shawna  35:39
Yeah

Troy  35:43
And if your mulattos your parents quadroon is your grandparents. So octoroon means that one of your great grandparents was was black. And now you have someone like Obama or Sasha and Malia, Sasha, Malia have white grandparents, and there's no way that I can think of that they're going to present themselves as white. 

Shawna  36:07
Oh, right. No, I just like to use it as a as a part of a conversation in terms of principle, like when it comes to how we attribute labels to folks, right? 

Troy  36:19
How arbitrary and and, and how completely arbitrary 

Shawna  36:24
Exactly, no, I and so I, my two kids, I have two children. And they, they pretty much look white, my I'm married to a white man. So I'm in an interracial marriage too. But they just like my son was born basically, with platinum blonde hair, and blue eyes, my daughter has green eyes, and they're very fair, very fair, they have my daughter, this is how they like to say, my daughter's hair grows down, my son says his hair grows up, I think that's hilarious. Or the texture. And that they also identify differently, they look, they look so much the same, very much the same. But I have a picture of like a family picture of us at a hockey game, where we're all for kind of looking sideways at the camera. I'm like, Oh, my God, if you like cut them out, their faces are identical. But my son identifies as white. And my daughter identifies sometimes as biracial. And sometimes as black. She just talks about that a lot. And when we lived in Prague, which is very homogenous, it's, there's just so little diversity there. She was the one that was most affected by that lack of diversity and kind of the reactions we would get. So how I've always found that so interesting, where you can present one way outwardly, people can try to categorize you some way. But it really comes down to how you identify, you know, and those those labels do become quite arbitrary.

Troy  37:50
It does come down to that it is nice that that, that your daughter feels that she has that the ability to make that choice. There's no equivalent word. There was never any equivalent word, there's no white equivalent word of quadroon.

Shawna  38:10
I never thought about that.

Troy  38:12
Which is, which is indicate indicative of the direction they'd only went, it only goes one direction. Unfortunately, it's nice that we can start to start pushing it the other direction, so that but for pretty much my entire life and only went one direction.

Sarah  38:29
Yeah, I think there's something to piggyback off of what my dad said, it's great that she owns owns that completely. I I'm still working on that. I still feel like I identify more as more black than I ever have. But I still feel like I don't belong to black spaces fully either, because I'm very white, passing at face value. Again, hypo decent, letting other people decide for me, is something I've spent a lifetime working towards. Not allowing and I'm still in my I'm in my mid 30s and I'm still not fully there yet. So it's it's definitely a journey. And it takes a lot of well, for some it takes work, a lot of internal self work to get there.

Shannon  39:21
I feel like it's something that has changed over time, right? I mean, even for me, you know, we're all in different generations, right? Um, I guess I'm the youngest of the group talking right now. And mine has shift right. So I thought black at first now I definitely identify as biracial but Shawna for like your daughter, he said she identify, you know, it's changed, she feels okay using that label and you know, maybe it comes with this color of our skin being a little lighter. But I think just being able to breathe, embrace all parts of you with a little less backlash, right? You know, it's still around in some shape or form or, you know, whatever. But, you know, maybe it's just a little bit more accepted now. So it's a little more okay. To do. 

Shawna  40:13
Yeah, I mean, I think that plays a part of it. Some of it has to do with energy troit. Earlier you said, like, you're just kind of tired. And I think that is some of what my son has experienced. Because he'll he'll try to explain me, or, or his parents, because like I said, we're an interracial couple. He'll try to explain that to some friends who haven't met us, and they'll see a picture or something and then argue with him about my racial makeup. They're like, No, she's not, she's not black, you know. And I think he just kind of got worn down. And just figured, look, I look like this. My sister looks like this. My dad looks like this. I don't know what's going on with my mom. I'm just kidding. But uh, I think I think for him, it just kind of became an easier way to describe himself, or as my daughter is actually taking the other route where it does take a little bit more explanation, but she likes to have that conversation. And and I think you're right, Shannon, in a way. People I believe, feel more free to have that conversation now. I don't know. Did you ever discuss your parents and fine, any strange social encounters growing up? Troy, when you talked about kind of your family makeup with people?

Troy  41:39
Um, no. Because I guess they were expecting that we have to, they would ask where I was from, they would never be surprised. Particularly I mean, internally, it might change their opinion of who they are talking to or who they were looking at. But outwardly, I never noticed a whole lot of of difference because of that. But just to sort of veer off just a little bit here, we were talking about, what does it mixes?

Sarah  42:12
 Mixes, yeah

Troy  42:13
Mixes and all this sort of stuff? 

Shawna  42:14
Yeah, 

Troy  42:15
Then I think the thing that always comes back to me as being one of the things that's really important about this whole topic, the topic of race, and, etc, is that it's really easy to get this idea in your head that that was a long time ago, and Things are different now. And that has never been true. It has never been a long time ago. And things are barely different. Now. In my lifetime, it was illegal for me or my dad to go into restaurants in this country. In my lifetime, it was illegal for my mom and dad to get married, and state in different states in this country. I've run into all sorts of racist attitudes and opinions over the last 50 years, over the last 20 years over the last 30 years over the last 40 years. So the reason I had brought up mixes is I just think it's very dangerous to start saying, hey, that is over now. And now we're in this new era where things are different. And that has never been the case in all the areas I've lived through. So far. It's been 10% different. But the 90% is still there underlying the surface, and that's what you're trying to deal with. That's all I have to say about that.

Shawna  43:32
Yeah. Well, Sarah, I was gonna ask you what it's been like, from your perspective, then have you run into any? Or have you experienced any kind of awkward conversations? Or? I don't know, does it feel distant to you? What are your thoughts? 

Sarah  43:52
Does it feel distant? 

Shawna  43:53
Like your dad was? Yeah, he was saying, you know, this, this wasn't a long time ago, all of these things he had, and now, you know, we aren't faced with whether or not a person can marry someone of what's socially, a different race, depending on what state they live on, live in. And, you know, these these other civil rights sort of experiences that your dad has lived through, or has been part of his lifetime, I'm wondering with you, and you're, you know, you're in a different generation, we're all kind of, I like how we're spaced out here in terms of our generations and what we've experienced. I'm just curious, from your perspective, what it feels like, like for Shannon, you know, she's she's the youngest in this group today. And she was saying, she, she can feel a shift. Right, so it may not be gone, but she has. It feels different to her. I'm just, oh, 

Shannon  44:50
It's not No, it's definitely not gone, but 

Troy  44:54
It feels different to me too. It's definitely better

Sarah  44:56
Right. Yeah, I think I think when you said, it's dangerous to think that we're just in a really good spot now, I agree with that 100%, there's still so much and maybe people aren't quite as vocal about it. I mean, not in person, but definitely online. My goodness, it's very dangerous to think that we're, like, we're in a good place, we are in a better place in a lot of ways. But the reason I think this podcast needs to exist, and these conversations need to persist is because we need to examine the past. And, and the experiences that are that were happening then and now and see that maybe you can be a little more overt about it, but you like we're still experiencing some of the same things, some of that, that labeling that is not created by ourselves that stereotyping that is not an accurate reflection of who we are. And so, I mean, that's exactly why I'm a part of the Women's March and focused on this intersectional ism is because there is still so much work to be done. And sometimes it's it's so overwhelming you, you don't even know where to start. But conversations like these, where we're examining it, and really studying the history of it, and knowing that it doesn't just go back to the 80s to the 70s, the 60s, but hundreds and hundreds of years, can help to inform how we move forward and just continue to improve things, I think. 

Shawna  46:43
Yeah, agreed. And I, one of the things I wanted to ask you, Sarah was about your work, I was curious, to what degree your family makeup, and what you know about your dad, especially now, having talked to him a little bit, what degree all of that has played into your decision to go into this line of work, you know, you that something that sort of came later, or was that all born out of your, your experiences,

Sarah  47:14
It was definitely born out of my experiences my examination of my own identity, as a woman as a black woman, and starting to see how all of these things intersect interconnect in good ways at times, but also in a lot of negative ways. And so this specific involvement was born out of the 2016 election, definitely. But it's kind of been there in a way that I haven't known what to do with prior to that, but that was really the catalyst for me to start saying, like, this world is not the world that I want my daughters to grow up in. And let me see what I can do about it, too. So it was it was it was born out of my identity and the examination of that, but the catalyst was, you know, creating a better place for my daughters, who are all of these things that I identify with them more, how can I create a safer space for them even?

Troy  48:19
Well, thing that I've always been hopeful of, is that it will become more and more unnecessary. I remember reading 30 or 40 years ago, that right around 20, anytime now is the the majority population of the country will go will be we'll be some shade of brown. And I think we're just going to keep going more and more that direction, until everyone is just the shade of brown and a and the the people that are very dark or very, are very light will be the outliers and not the and not the norm. We went to we went to Disneyland. This this summer for my granddaughters and it's this is part of the the interesting new thing that that we're all dealing with, is we went to Disneyland and after a couple hours in Disneyland, you can you can dispute this observation. But my observation was that is that black people do not go to Disneyland. And we don't have to get into all the reasons why that is true or why that would be true. But just wandering around Disneyland. There were very, very few identifiably African American families. But there's no way that I could say that Disneyland was not diverse because the vast majority of people that are in Disneyland that were at Disneyland that day looked like us. It was filled with brown people everywhere. And yet, we still have this dichotomy of there's a certain very small group of people that are not that are not represented here. I don't know what the meaning of all that is, is just that that's something that we would not have seen in Disneyland or anyplace else 30 or 40 years ago, it would have been much more stark. So where do we fit in there? Are we just part of the brown people are going through Disneyland? Are we part of the African American population visiting Disneyland? I don't know..

Shawna  50:29
Great. Well, I think we're kind of coming to a place where we can begin to pull together our thoughts. I don't know. Sarah, do you have any? Any other questions for your dad?

Sarah  50:42
Well, since we've never fully talked about it, I would love to hear a little bit more about how you want it to come in intentionally parenting, Allie and I, from a racial identity perspective, like what were some of the things you thought about? This is what I'm going to instill into my daughters? 

Shawna  51:06
That's a good question. 

Sarah  51:07
Thank you.

Troy  51:09
Well, I didn't give it all that much thought it just seemed kind of straightforward. A half of your family is indisputably a black family, although all my siblings are biracial, my entire family absolutely identifies as a black. Hopefully, none of my siblings will come back and argue with or not argue, but dispute this. But I'm pretty, pretty confident that my entire that our family, everyone in my family identifies themselves as a black family or a black family. So you have that going for you. So you can't, you can't ignore that. And as I said, if you can't readily pass for white, then you're going to have to deal with that as well. So might as well start now. But mostly, I think it's just something to be that you should be you should be something that you should be proud of. My dad's family is was is a great family. On my dad's side of the family accomplished a hell of a lot. 

Shawna  52:19
Yep. I am very proud. I think pride does come into it. I think it played definitely played a part in my family. As part of the reason why I was raised as a you know, as black. And that was really on my mother's side, my mother's side of family, so many different shades of everything. Really, family reunions are like you do not know who is a guest attending, who's like belonging to us. It's just that way. My father side is Creole. So that's, that's why I rarely go into all of when people ask the question that has always bothered me the most more than where are you from is what are you? So when I'm asked, What are you know, it's like, oh, it's just so much because like Creole itself has so many different pieces parts to it. But the culture part I have a lot of pride in. So what's interesting is I do not feel completely immersed in Creole culture, black culture, white culture, or any particular culture. Part of it has to do with having lived so many different places, and having been exposed to so many different people and cultures. But even though I don't feel that full immersion in any of those, I still attach a lot of pride to the to them and and knowing that that's part of who I am. So well, Troy, do you have any questions? for Sarah? 

Troy  53:52
She's already answered. Most of these already answered most of them. 

Shawna  53:56
Maybe there's something you were curious about that how she felt growing up or anything like that.

Troy  54:03
I don't know. How did you feel growing up? How did you feel about your your your granddad and versus your grandma, etc, etc. When did you notice that they were different?

Sarah  54:15
I'm not exactly sure I Well, I mean, I never thought of them as different. It was just my family. And I was super proud. But it was when people start asking you that question, what are you where you feel like you have to come up with an explanation as to why you look, the way you look, that's when you start to I guess that's when you start to notice the difference. And so, I was always very, very proud of where I came from and and being a part of two cultures in such an immersive way and I and at this point, it's it's a privilege to be able to it examine that more deeply and, and continue to develop my own identity with all of it. So, I think your your earlier definition dad of what it means to be black. Fortunately, that is not my that is not a definition I, I have to connect with, because I am such a blend that people never ever know. So they don't know to put those negative Sarah stereotypes on me or that anything derogatory towards me. So I do feel that that was a privilege growing up, which no way is that ideal or something to be happy about other than it means that I was not treated poorly in ways that you experienced?

Troy  55:52
Well, part of growing up multiracial or biracial is that it doesn't even have to be directly. It doesn't have to be directed at you. Because people are so ambiguous, feel so ambiguous about what you are people are much more prone to say things that they wouldn't say, if you were obviously African American. People make comments and say things that they wouldn't do if if you looked differently. So but you still know that they're referring to you, and it doesn't have to turn into a fight every time. But still you in you hear things that you would not hear otherwise. But still know that they are referring to you and they're referring to your family. And it's true. 

Shawna  56:46
Shannon, do you have any thoughts? or questions?

Shannon  56:47
I don't have any thoughts or questions. Um, I would just like to thank Sarah and Troy, I, I've just so many similarities, and it just makes me think, you know, I guess it's more surface level, it opens up my perspective more and to see like, where people like us have come from and where we are now. And how much work there still is to be. It is also refreshing just to see people with the same perspective as far as like, yeah, had to pick this box. Yeah, you know, a lot of similarities, but a lot of different perspective, which widens my view. So I would like to just thank you all for that. 

Troy  57:33
Well, thanks for having us. We've only just barely could do this for another few hours. 

Shawna  57:38
Ooh yeah probably. Absolutely. I want to thank you, too, thank you for, for sharing your thoughts and your experiences. And it's not always easy these conversations. But it is very helpful sometimes, just to know that you're not alone in some of the things that you're thinking or feeling. And also, like Shannon said, to kind of see things from a different perspective as well. So I very much appreciate you coming on and sharing with us.

Sarah  58:05
Thank you so much. The last, the last thing I'll say is I encourage everyone to have these conversations with their parents is really enlightening. And and some of these things I I've learned that will shape again, how I'll continue to develop my own identity and support others in that, but talk to your parents, talk to your grandparents learn these things, record these things. Because these, this is the history that we have to learn from and build upon. 

Shawna  58:39
Beautifully said.

Troy  58:40
That sounds good. And it is true that we are not. We're not as alone anymore. My brother and I we were alone in 1965. We were least that's how it felt. I mean, there was just us, there was no internet to go and there was no place else there was just us. And no one else to talk to or compare your experiences with because there was no one else having your experiences as far as you could tell. So it's much nicer, much better in that in that in that respect now for sure that you can do something like this podcast.

Shawna  59:18
Yeah, definitely. That's, that's one thing that Shannon said once before. She's like, it's great that we can even have a podcast like this and have these discussions. You know, there's time he really, really could. So all right. Well, thanks, guys. 

Troy  59:33
Thank you I hope you guys have a great day out there. 

Shawna  59:36
Yeah,

Shannon  59:37
Thank you as well. 

Shawna  59:45
Hey, friends, good episode, right? It was so interesting. I really am so happy that Sarah and Troy shared their stories with us. And I agree with Sarah. I think it's a great idea to have these kind of conversations with your family. You know, get to know that narrative and think about how that plays a part in your current life and where that might lead you. Hey, if you liked you're listening to by the way, this is the music of the fabulous Troy Chapman. The song is called Turkish morning and if you happen to be in Washington State, and you want to check him out live, coming up actually on the 17th. You can find him at farmer in the vine and Langley and on the 18th at Mount Baker Theatre in Bellingham. In the show notes, I've placed some links so that you can check out his website and some other events details, and you can hear more of his music. If you want to follow Sarah's work. I'm also placing links in the show notes for the women's marches that she's involved very heavily in. So check out the women's marches. She's got great things going on in San Diego, you can check out the foundation in LA. So way to be supportive of them to don't forget you can reach out to me at tribe @shawnagann.com or you can give me a call leave me a voicemail. voice message let me know if there's something in particular you want to talk about or if you'd like to share your thoughts on anything we've discussed. So you can reach me at 202-670-3323. Don't forget to subscribe. Please rate the show and leave a review. That'd be awesome. So Happy New Year y'all stay safe out there. Please remember to share a smile with someone and make someone feel welcome. I love you all and I'll be talking to you soon.