Meet Jason!

Welcome to Season Two, Y'all! So happy to be back and thrilled to introduce my co-host for the season, Jason Mitchum. Jason is my big brother and here to chat all things OTC with a focus on family as the theme in this second season.

In this first episode of the season we talk about our personal experiences of racial ambiguity and also the coolness of slippers!

If this is your first time with OTC, check out EPISODE 1: START HERE for more background on the show.

Our True Colors is sponsored by True Culture Coaching & Consulting. Head to our website to find out how True Culture Coaching and Consulting can support you and your organization. You can find us at truecultureconsulting.com where you can also contact us to schedule a free consultation.

Transcript

Intro  00:06
Welcome to our True Colors hosted by Shawna Gann. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial riddle, an ethnic Enigma, and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.

Shawna 00:20
This season is super special to me, because as my co-host, I have someone near and dear to my heart, that voice that you hear, announcing this show might sound familiar to you today, because I'd like to welcome my big brother, as he does my intro for me. Hi, Jason.

Jason  00:37
Hello, hello.

Shawna  00:39
I thought it'd be cool to have him as my co-host this season. Because, as you know, I'm trying to always find someone with similar experiences, but who can offer a different perspective. And what's interesting about Jason and me, is we we are siblings, and we're quite close. But we didn't grow up together, we share our father, his parents were together before mine. And so you're almost two years older than me, I guess.

Jason 01:08
Yep, just buff.

Shawna  01:10
Yeah. But we actually didn't start to talk and, and I was gonna say hang out, I guess it's kind of hanging out, though not in person. Get to know each other, I guess, until I was really like 17 or something like that.

Jason 01:27
So it was a little earlier. Really? 
Shawna  01:30
Maybe, maybe 16? I mean, not that much earlier.

Jason  01:34 
Okay

Shawna  01:35
Really? I don't know. My memory of us meeting was I was in Anchorage. And I flew down to visit friends in Pennsylvania because I, I really, I can't believe like when I think back on this, I just can't believe that this was allowed to happen. But it did. I actually borrowed my friend's dad's truck. And we drove from Pennsylvania to Ohio. 

Jason  01:56
Yeah, it's like, 

Shawna  01:58
It was crazy. Because this was like before cell phones before? Why? Yes. 

Jason 02:02
Right? Okay like well cut out

Shawna  02:06
Like, we had a map of the turnpike and some quarters for payphones. That's what we had that we made it.

Jason 02:14
Yes, I think it changed my life.

Shawna  02:17
Why do cuz this is like, I know where it's, I always say like, I can't even believe how close we are having not grown up together. Yes,

Jason 02:25
Yes, yes.

Shawna  02:27
Or maybe may be we're close because we didn't grow up together.

Jason 02:29
That could be a factor. Yes.

Shawna  02:35
But I don't know, why not. I know you well. So why don't you introduce yourself to the listeners? Like, just describe yourself? And what it was like growing up and stuff in the context of racial ambiguity? And, yeah.

Jason 02:49
Okay. Well, first off, my name is Jason. I'm a Capricorn. I'm just kidding. Sorry. Seriously, um, I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, my entire life. I come well, growing up, I grew up in a very poor neighborhood. Very rough. So the community was predominantly African American. And it was a bit odd for me growing up, because I am rather fair skin, light skin, that whatever you prefer to say that so it always felt, I always felt a little bit out of place, I have to say, I did have some experiences that were not very pleasant through the years growing up. But you know, I think we all have dealt with that at some point or another. So I'm married three beautiful children. And work very hard. Believe that. And I'm thrilled to have this opportunity to do this with Shawna, truly,

Shawna  03:58
I'm so thrilled to I really am. Well, one of the things that we talk about is how we identify. So I've been kind of describing my own experience in that I'm light skinned as well. People often mistake me for being Latina. Oh, yes. 

Jason  04:19
Constantly. Puerto Rican. Oh, yeah. 

Shawna  04:22
Yes. I've been asked if I'm from Puerto Rico, from Dominican Republic, actually, sometimes. People, yeah, people tend to go that direction. Or they'll just ask the questions that we get asked, like, What are you? Where are you from? That kind of thing?

Jason 04:36
Oh, yes. One of my favorite experiences was actually being in training for a position or a job. And there was a gentleman who was sitting across a table with me was going through the same training, and he kept looking at me out of the corner of his eye every once in a while, and then we finally had a break and then he asked me, What the hell are you?

Shawna  04:58
Oh, Just like that,

Jason 05:00
yeah. And he himself was biracial. He was actually African American and Puerto Rican. So I think he was trying to find out is, you know, he the same as me or what? Yeah, so it was very interesting. I wasn't offended. I laughed. If anything else,

Shawna  05:22
I probably would have laughed to that. It actually, I'm not so offended anymore by the question. I mean, I don't I think they're probably better ways to ask, although no matter how you do it, it's still going to be somewhat awkward, 

Jason  05:36
Right. 

Shawna  05:07
But I think growing up, I was offended by it, because I just there were fewer people like me, I think, at least where I was. And it just was kind of dehumanizing, like, What are you? You know, and it was never, I shouldn't say never, most of the time, I felt like it wasn't just to get to know me or to find out about me. Right. It was just to satisfy somebody's curiosity. 

Jason  06:02
Right. 

Shawna 06:03
And I get it, I get it that people are curious, right? Because there's been times where I, I see other people who are racially ambiguous. And I'm curious to right, but I think kind of probably like the guy that was in the room with you. I think my curiosity is also like, just because I feel like, I belong in that, like, we're in some sort of boat together,

Jason  06:23
Right 

Shawna  06:24
So I kind of wonder more about them, 

Jason  06:26
Right. 

Shawna  06:27
But I don't really, despite the way I look, and also being asked growing up all the time, if I was mixed, or mixed. I always said, No, that was my standard answer. Because that's how I grew up my I just identified as black. My mom, I would ask my mom to, like, people want to know if I mix and my mixed and she would just say you're black. You're light skinned, though. Boy, how do you identify?

Jason  06:52
How do you identify? It's, I have to say over the years, it has changed. I mean, growing up, like the same as you, you know, my mom always told me, you know, you're black. You know, that's, that's how we grew up. That's how I grew up. But over the years, I've learned to embrace all the different racial identities within myself, and I'm very proud of who I am. So if anything these days, I would say I'm probably multicultural. Sometimes. And when people ask me the question, I say, I'm American.

Shawna  07:24
Yeah. Well, I mean, there's so that's a thing. I have talked about that too, because when people say what's your nationality? I do want to a little bit. I do kind of want to school people, but in the most respectful way that I can. Sometimes I admit, I might be snarky, I don't want to be but that happens. But when someone says, What's your nationality, I just say I'm American, because that is my nationality. The differences, right, with ethnicity, race, although we use the word race, I use it, because that's the most common descriptor when people think of the major groups of people in that way. Race broadly being Asian, black, white, or if you want to, say African American or Caucasian. And Native American, you know, there's these broad groups, but within each of those groups are the ethnicities right? So, like, not all white people would consider themselves to be, like, most people just broadly would say they're white. But then if you asked about their ancestry, oh, you know, many people know, where their ancestors originate from, typically, someplace in Europe, right. So like, someone might say, I have French ancestry, or, or so on. So those would be like your actual ethnicities. But then culture is more about, like, how you live. So I like to think of it as, like, if you think about transracial, adoptions, when, like, let's say, a family from the US a white couple, let's say goes to Africa, or to somewhere in East Asia, and they adopt a child and then bring the child back to America, that child, you know, racially or ethnically, would be from wherever they were born, like, wherever they're from. But then, if they're raised in America, their culture is probably going to be much different than had they been raised in originating environment. So, I mean, I guess we could say all of the above, right, where we're multi ethnic, and multi, I certainly consider myself to be multicultural, having lived in so many different places over the years, I've picked things up, right where I'm from, from different places, so that in that sense, I would say a multicultural. 

Jason  09:52
Well, I think we both often refer to ourselves as Creole as well, which is true. 

Shawna  09:58
Yeah, 

Jason  09:59
Yeah. So I mean, I my My my eldest daughter, she, she's asked me before and and so your Creole, sweetie. Did you go from there? You know?

Shawna 10:08
Yeah. Well, you know what, that's perfect because I never use to explain, say that I was Creole when people would ask me, because I didn't know that much. right around the time that I got to know you is when I got to know, more of our father's side of the family, 

Jason  10:30
Right. 

Shawna  10:32
I knew about it, but it's not like I grew up with it.

Jason  10:32
So I think it's funny though, as as we've been having this conversation, you've mentioned, these different races and cultures, and almost all of them are part of our family. 

Shawna  10:50
It's true. That's true. It's true. But culturally speaking, like I don't claim Creole as part of my culture, though, because I don't know it. I'm still asking lots of questions. Like I speak to a couple of our aunts a lot. And and I asked, you know, because I'm like, I really don't know that much about it other than what I've learned myself through research and stuff as I got older. But definitely, it's part of my heritage and my ancestry.

Jason  11:15
True. True. I got a new one recently. Recently, I've been Greek that was new for me, 

Shawna  11:21
Greek? woo

Jason  11:22
Yes, yes. Yes.

Shawna  11:25
I've never gotten Greek, Italian once. That was fun. But to be fair, which actually, I was really super proud of this, and not because of how I looked, but because that meant my Italian with my Italian speaking abilities 

Jason  11:40
I was gonna say, who was with you in Italy

Shawna  11:43
No, I don't think oh, my gosh, if an Italian in Italy thought that I was Italian, 

Jason  11:50
I'd be dry,

Shawna 11:51
Y'all. I'd be like, no, this was when we lived in Seoul and South Korea. There was an Italian restaurant that we really liked, and was Italian owned and run. And those of you who know me know that I love me somebody lemoncello, and I make it. So I'd seen that they had these, like giant demijohns of the lemon peel, like, prepared, like they were preparing the lemoncello, they were soaking, and I do mine a little bit differently than the way they had there. So I went up and asked one of the ladies there about their method, and if they did it the other way, too, and so on. And then so we spoke about it a little bit. And then she asked me where I was from. And so I just said, like US, right? Because, here, here we are in an Italian restaurant speaking Italian in Seoul, South Korea. And I'm like, I'm from the US. And she goes, Oh, you're not Italian? And I was like, no. The chic was like, Oh, I thought you were Italian. I was wondering where you were from in Italy. And so then I explained where I was from, but I like practically skipped back to my table. I was so proud.

Jason  13:08
Oh, wow.

Shawna  13:10
The only time I got that, and I really don't think it had anything to do with what I looked like. I think it was just cuz maybe they're not used to Americans in Seoul, speaking Italian at the restaurant.

Jason  13:22 
Yeah

Shawna 13:22
But it was cool. So did you ever find growing up? Or even now like, Are there any challenges that you face with the way people might like, but the way people might categorize you? Or any assumptions that they might make about you based on your parents? 

Jason  13:43
Assumptions, yes. This is never really changed. Growing up, I have people, especially in my old neighborhood, they would automatically assume because I was light skinned, oh, he's going to be arrogant. And he's going to be, you know, full of himself, that sort of thing. And I'm, surprisingly, I still get that here and there. I don't know why I don't understand it. I think I'm a pretty laid back fellow. But uh,

Shawna  14:12
What do you mean? Yeah. How? How do you experience that?

Jason 14:15
They would, they would just say it was like, oh, there'll be shocked. Like, after they would speak to me and get to know me, and oh, my God, I thought you were gonna be a totally different person. I'm not sure we're gonna be you know, just conceited and all about yourself. And it was it was weird. It was very weird.

Shawna  14:32
But even in adulthood, 

Jason 14:36
A little bit. Yeah. And this is the I, I've gotten. I've received more from the black community from the white community. I've actually haven't experienced much anything that I would say that made me terribly uncomfortable. They would often be very curious, but I've had I've had friends and coworkers in the past who said Oh, I thought you were white. I thought you were just really tanned.

Shawna  15:04
I forgot about the tan thing. 

Jason  15:06
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Shawna  15:08
I forgot all about that people were you are so tanned

Jason  15:12
Oh, yes. Oh, yes. 

Shawna  15:15
Oh my gosh. 

Jason  15:16
So other than that, that's about it, I have to say there was a time. I remember my wife and I, we were in Chicago and we took a cab to the hotel we're going to, and there was a Latino gentleman who was driving the cab. And you know, we were talking a little bit and then he just switched to Spanish and just started speaking to me and everything. And I'm like, Oh, I apologize. You know, my Spanish isn't very good. And he's like, you're not, you're not, you know, Latino. And he's like, no, and he's like, oh, okay, he looked so shocked. It was hilarious. But, you know, that's, you know, it's just something you know, I think we've all always dealt with, you know, people have their assumptions of our race and a lot of questions. You know what I mean? It's usually just a lot of questions.

Shawna  16:09
Yeah, you're right. I mean, the Spanish thing happens to me probably at least once a week. And I would find it like a rite aid picking up something and the lady as I was checking out, she kept looking at me kind of funny. Like, I didn't really get it, but I was like, whatever. Also because it was in the morning and I was just like, not fully, 

Jason  16:27
Right? 

Shawna  16:28
Like with it, I just was like, Okay, and then when she asked me if I wanted my receipt, I was like, Nah, that's okay. And then she said something to me that I was like, like, I had no, I but I know Spanish. I just didn't catch it. And then I just kind of like shrugged. And she kind of was like, Huh, okay, and then like. So it's so funny, because it's like, first of all, that happens to me all the time, where people will just speak to me in Spanish, but this was one of those times where I was like, almost ashamed for not speaking Spanish, even though there's no reason I should have like, right? There's no one in my family. Like, there's it's not a native language of mine or anything like that. Sometimes I feel ashamed because I studied it, and I should know, but also it was like, Yeah, but it was like, I'm sorry, I don't speak but like, I felt so bad. It's so funny. In that particular time. It's not usually like that. I usually am like, kind of laughing or I'll say no, I don't speak or whatever. But the look she gave me when it was like Never mind. I was like, Oh my gosh, truly apologetic. But, ya know, that does happen all the time to Me, too. I do wish I could speak Spanish better.

Jason  17:40
Oh, sorry. I apologize. As a side note, my wife gave me Star Wars wiki slippers. So there are these fairy house slippers that look like Chewbacca. And apparently the cat likes to rub against them.

Shawna  18:01
I don’t have any cool slippers.

Jason  18:04
She has been I worked very hard to get her bunny slippers. About a year ago. So yeah, we're kind of like a slipper people now.

Shawna  18:12
Got some shoe lace

Jason  18:13
Got some shoe lace. Yes, ma'am.

Shawna  18:15
The cat like my dogs would destroy that. Yeah. Okay, I wanted to ask you about fitting in, or having a sense of belonging. 

Jason  18:32
Okay. 

Shawna  18:33
How was that for you? Do you feel like you are pretty good about? Like, do you feel like you fit in any community or specific communities? Or what's that like for you?

Jason 18:45
Well, I honestly feel that I can fit in and pretty much any community. However, I must say there's always this sense of this, this, this feeling of being outside. kind of the way I like to think about it is that, you know, there are so many different races that were comprised of and, you know, I honestly feel kinship to everyone, you know, but you always also feel a little bit outside because there are a few people who are exactly like you, if that makes sense. Yeah, overall, I feel like pretty much fit in everywhere.

Shawna  19:28
I would say for me, mostly, but honestly, despite not sharing actual culture, I find that I tend to be drawn to like people who don't who aren't black as and when people think of African Americans and people who aren't white. So that could be like the Latin x community. Could be Middle Eastern. It could be northern African, or like just any Let's say, I don't really want to say minority groups.
Jason  20:06
People of color?

Shawna  20:07
Yeah. But when I'm saying people of color, I really mean, outside of the African American community.

Jason  20:14
Sure, sure. 

Shawna  20:15
Well, I have I mean, I mean, I considered Like I said, I consider myself black. And I definitely fit into that community, too. I find that the majority of my friends, or where I tend to be most comfortable is with those groups, even though I don't share any of that culture. Okay, because I think part of it is in the black community, I definitely have that culture, right. But I don't feel like I have it all the way. Like there are things that I just am like I that I don't relate to 100%.

Jason  20:44
Maybe it's that feeling of we're all in this together.

Shawna  20:51
It might be but I don't know. I don't know. But I did notice that about myself. That was just a thought. And I was curious how you what it's like for you, like my white friends. You mentioned curiosity earlier. Like, I think that I've experienced a lot of questions and things like that, and which, when I'm close to people, I don't mind answering those questions. I mean, I guess I don't mind answering them anyway. But there are some things that feel more personal, I suppose if that's possible when it comes to race and ethnicity, I don't know. But it feels that way. Here is always a sensitive topic. For me.

Jason  21:25
I understand. I understand.

Shawna  21:26
When I lived in Berlin, I was teaching at a German school, and I put in my extensions. And the moms were like, how did you get your hair so long? And I would say, Oh, well, I have these magic beads. And 

Jason  21:41
Oh, my goodness, you didn't?

Shawna  21:45
You know, clearly, they were like knowing I don't have magic beans. But it was so like a shock to them that would give that they just didn't ask me anything else. They just kind of look at me like, oh, but I just I understand curiosity. I get it like humans are naturally curious. That's just how we are. But sometimes I just don't want to answer all the questions. It's a personal thing. And so I don't know, I don't even know how I got into that. I was talking about the curiosity. I guess.

Jason  22:18
I've been wearing my hair curly for years now. So

Shawna  22:23
And I do some like I do in the summer, it's even easier to in the summer. But I I also find that I'm female too. So this could be different experience. But I hate to say this to admit this, but I do feel like I'm treated differently depending upon how I wear my hair. 

Jason  22:45
Hmm, interesting. Okay.

Shawna  22:47
Yeah. And that changes. The questions people ask too, or whether or not they ask. So it's like the texture of your hair, you know, kind of changes things, too.

Jason  22:57
I suppose it's true. If I, if I blow dry my hair and straighten it out, basically, and just wear it in like a natural Afro, you know it? I suppose I do get treated a little bit more differently.

Shawna  23:13
Yeah. Well, is there any particular topic that you would like to cover the season set than that?

Jason  23:24
Politics, I suppose.

Shawna  23:26
I mean, it's the year to discuss this. So you have plenty to discuss. For me, I think I would like to discuss diversity, equity and inclusion in organizations, workplaces, things like that. So I hope that we can touch on some of that.

Jason 23:42
Oh, sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

Shawna  23:46
Well, cool. Is there anything else that you'd like the listeners to know about you before we wrap up?

Jason  23:53
I think we're gonna get to know each other. But that's about it.

Shawna  24:00
It's gonna be good. I'm so happy you're here. Thanks for for doing this with me. 

Jason  24:05
My pleasure. It's my pleasure

Shawna  24:07
It’s gonna be great. All right. Okay, well, we'll catch up next time. 

Jason  24:14
All right. Have a good evening. 

Shawna  24:17  
Take care. Well, everyone, that's the show for this week. Thank you so much for joining. Please check out the website at truecolorscast.com where you can subscribe. You can contact me weigh in on the conversation and discover all kinds of other goodies. Lots more coming to you soon. In the meantime, be safe out there, y'all. Please share a smile with someone and find an opportunity to make someone feel welcome, love y'all Talk to you soon.