We all know words matter. Words have power - there's no doubting that. But...where is the line between what we want words to mean and what the words mean to others? Join Jason and me this week as we welcome Andrew and Lisa and we discuss our thoughts on this issue and how it relates the change of the shows title from Tribe and True to Our True Colors.
This episode features Lisa Woolfork, the creator of Black Women Stitch, the sewing group where black lives matter. She is the host and producer of Stitch Please, the podcast that centers black women, girls, and femmes in the sewing community. She is also an English professor at the University of Virginia where she specializes in African American Literature and Culture.
If this is your first time with OTC, check out EPISODE 1: START HERE for more background on the show.
Our True Colors is sponsored by True Culture Coaching & Consulting. Head to our website to find out how True Culture Coaching and Consulting can support you and your organization, and subscribe to our LinkedIn Newsletter, The Culture Clinic, for more great content. You can find us at truecultureconsulting.com where you can also contact us to schedule a free consultation.
We all know words matter. Words have power - there's no doubting that. But...where is the line between what we want words to mean and what the words mean to others? Join Jason and me this week as we welcome Andrew and Lisa and we discuss our thoughts on this issue and how it relates the change of the shows title from Tribe and True to Our True Colors.
This episode features Lisa Woolfork, the creator of Black Women Stitch, the sewing group where black lives matter. She is the host and producer of Stitch Please, the podcast that centers black women, girls, and femmes in the sewing community. She is also an English professor at the University of Virginia where she specializes in African American Literature and Culture.
If this is your first time with OTC, check out EPISODE 1: START HERE for more background on the show.
Our True Colors is sponsored by True Culture Coaching & Consulting. Head to our website to find out how True Culture Coaching and Consulting can support you and your organization, and subscribe to our LinkedIn Newsletter, The Culture Clinic, for more great content. You can find us at truecultureconsulting.com where you can also contact us to schedule a free consultation.
Shawna 00:14
Hey everyone. Just a quick note that this week's episode does contain some language that is stronger than usual. And the topic is a little bit sensitive. I do hope you stick around for the conversation. And I would love your feedback on this episode. Thanks.
Intro 00:20
Welcome to our True Colors hosted by Shawna Gann. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial riddle, an ethnic Enigma and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.
Shawna 00:34
Welcome everyone to another episode of our true colors. This week as promised, we will be discussing the change in the name of the podcast from tribe and true to our true colors. A lot of the discussion stems around the use of the word tribe in the title. To talk about this, I've invited on a couple of guests. Jason, my co-host will be joining me as well. One of my guests is Andrew, Andrew and I met in a group on a social media platform designed for people who are mixed race or multiracial, where we discuss our everyday experiences. Based on some questions and feedback that I'd received. I decided to pose the question about whether or not it's okay to use the word tribe in the title. In the group where Andrew and I met, the discussion got to be pretty heated. There are people with varying backgrounds and points of view. And his is one of them, and he agreed to come on and discuss it. So thank you to Andrew.
Andrew 01:30
Hello
Shawna 01:31
I post the question in another group designed for podcasters. And that's where I met Lisa,
Lisa 01:36
I am Lisa from black women's stitch and the name of my podcast is Stitch please.
Shawna 01:40
We agreed to come on to share her opinions which differ from Andrews. Due to the nature of the conversation, it seemed appropriate to have this conversation in general. So thank you. And I'd love to have your feedback on this one, folks. I think it's an important conversation. Thank you for joining enjoy the show.
Lisa 02:00
Thank you so much for being a guest. I really appreciate this.
Shawna 02:04
Let me introduce everybody. I'd like to first introduce Jason, who is my co-host for season two and happens to be my brother.
Jason 02:11
Hello, hello.
Shawna 02:12
Hello, Jason.
Jason 02:13
Hello. Hello.
Shawna 02:15
Also, we have Lisa, Lisa and I met through social media group and Lisa is a fellow podcaster. So happy to have her point of view from at least from the topic, but also because she's a podcaster. So it's nice to have both perspectives. So hi, Lisa.
Lisa 02:34
Hello.
Shawna 02:35
And Andrew and I met in a different social media group where I posted the same question, but it was just it's just a different population. And so I wanted to have him weigh in too. Well, hi, everyone, I just wanted to give a little bit of a background this this episode, by show used to be called tribe and true. And it took me a long time to come up with the name. But I was pretty excited. When I finally settled on it. It felt strong. It felt like it represented what I wanted to represent, which was this sense of belonging and community. And also, I wanted to really emphasize a feeling of authenticity. When we're talking about identity. The show is about racial ambiguity. But I found out pretty early on that there were some some folks even before I launched, who cautioned me about the use of the word tribe in the title because I am not of native ancestry. Now, Jason and I will tell you, we have a sibling who is our sister is Native Alaskan.
Jason 03:34
Yes. Yeah.
Shawna 03:35
So I spoke with her and her mom, neither had any negative. They were like, I don't care, you know, so I thought, well, I really like it. And I'd like to go forward with it. But then as time went on, I continued to get some feedback about it. The change in the name when I decided that it might be a good idea was kind of twofold. Firstly, I wanted to make sure that people really understood what the show was about because if people automatically associate the word tribe with Native American and then see that I'm not Native American, I didn't want that to detract from you know, my listenership. I wanted people to make sure that they were finding what they thought they were finding. But also, I certainly didn't want to offend anyone, as I'm in the business of diversity, equity and inclusion, and culture. And identity is really a big part of my work, my studies and who I am, but I really wrestled with it because I also liked the name, I thought the name also represented, what I was going for and what I stood for. So that's where I was. And I just didn't know where else to take this. So I posted these questions, and two different social media groups. In one group. It was really about folks who are of mixed heritage. I also posted this in podcast group because I figured some folks with the similar interest might be able to weigh in, even if they weren't coming at it from the perspective of mixed heritage. So that's where we are. So Guys, tell me what you think about using the word tribe and my title for tribe and true, what are your thoughts?
Andrew 05:07
When I think of the term tribe, it's based on a term of familiarity with a group that might have some shared connections, whether it's language, religion, just general geographic proximity, like your neighborhood. And that has a very old term in English language, going back to say, the 12th or 13th century, it's historically been used basically to define a group of people that self-identify as one collective group, just in general. But I guess also how you use the term in context in whatever context you're speaking with, also adds an element to that definition. So it changes over time.
Shawna 05:47
I mean, I agree, which is why I, I thought that it would be okay to use that. And one of my, I think, in my first two episodes, actually, I talked also about the use of the word and how I was intending it to be used, but it didn't seem to make a difference to some. Yeah, I don't know. Lisa, can you share your thoughts?
Lisa 06:08
Sure, I'm happy to share my thoughts. I believe that words mean more than just what we want them to. I believe that words have power. And they derive the power from not just history, as Andrew has just mentioned, they also derive power from their current context and circulation. And so for me, I understood that you wanted to use the term tribe, because I get the sense that you like alliteration. I understand. I respect that because I like alliteration, too. So I'm looking at your podcast description, and it says, Are you a racial riddle, and ethnic Enigma, a cultural conundrum? These two things, you know, alliteration is when the first two consonants or the first two sounds of a word, sound the same. And so tribe and true, does that, right. And so I'm like, I get it, I think it's cute. I understood what you were going for. However, for me, the word tribe is not only a descriptor for, as Andrew was saying, describing a share connection, or describing your neighbors or describing a sports team. And I want to return to that in a second. It's also at least the way that it has come to be used more, I believe, more recently, in the particularly in the 18th and 17th century, that this was fundamentally connected to the field of anthropology. And it was that anthropological pulse that I was with that I responded to, and by anthropological I'm referring to the way that people get grouped. And, and how people have worked to reclaim these things, particularly native people in First Nations people have worked to reclaim to claim these terms. And I just believe that not everything is for everybody, you know, and I think that we need to respect boundaries. And, you know, even if it means that we can't have something, I have access to something, that's, that's fine. Because I don't know, I just feel like it was it felt very problematic to me to be a podcast project that was concerned with issues of racial identity, and conformity, and yet seemed unwilling to preserve a boundary of integrity around allowing this to apply specifically to native peoples. You know, first, you know, First Nations people. And so that was that was where I was coming from. And I will also add that you that getting authorization, you mentioned, Shawna that you spoke with your sister about this, and about your sister, who's first world person, a First Nations person, and you spoke to your sister's mom about this, and they were like, oh, okay, that's fine. That doesn't, that does it getting permission from like, quote, unquote, a native informant, and I use that term in the anthropological sense of describing, you know, it's kind of like someone saying, oh, some of my friends are black, therefore, I can't be racist getting permission from someone who's part of that group doesn't absolve you of responsibility of the consequences that come with using language in ways that are imprecise.
Shawna 09:41
Well, thank you, Lisa. So first, I'd like to say as you can see, the title has changed. So it's not that I was unwilling. I think it's about and I think this is true for any cultural conversation. There's more about trying to understand why it's not okay. And I think I have conversations that are very similar about being black that people don't understand. And like what you said, not everything is for you. So while I understand that, from my perspective, this was the first time that I was faced with being on the other side trying to get it. My intent had nothing to do with appropriation. But it did have to do with what I was using the word tribe, for Yes, you're right. I do like words. I love alliteration. But it was more than that. It really was because I'm trying to foster the sense of community and belonging where a person like me, in many situations, I don't feel like I belong. And I know that there are others who feel the same. So it was like trying to have a platform to foster that sense. In terms of the anthropological use, tribes exist everywhere, not just in America, or Alaska. There are African tribes, and my ancestry includes African heritage. I wasn't coming at it with that. But I do think it's a I did think it was poignant. I thought it was important to include that because I'm like, well, how come it also can't be for me, if that's part of my ancestry, too. It's just not Native American, or Native Alaskan. It's African. And there are folks that are native in many, many other places. And at one, one response even referenced the biblical, like tribes,
Lisa 11:24
The 12 tribes of Israel.
Shawna 11:26
Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, ah, I mean, in the end, as you as you know, I mean, we know I've changed the title, because it was more important to me, as you said, Lisa, like, I'm here to talk about culture, diversity identity. So in the end, it was definitely more important for me to be culturally sensitive. And to have to just let go of my title, because, you know, I didn't want to hang on to it just because I was stubborn. And I like alliteration. It was definitely not that trust me. Jason will tell you how long I went back and forth about this. Nevertheless, it was still quite a battle, because I was like, ah, but that's not what I'm trying to say.
Lisa 12:07
Can I ask you a question?
Shawna 12:09
Sure.
Lisa 12:09
So do you believe and I guess this is true for Andrew as well? Do you believe that a tribe is a bounded concept? Do you believe that if someone says they are in a tribe, that there are certain cultural traditions, certain expectations, practices and beliefs? That mean that someone is either in the tribe or not?
Shawna 12:35
I guess I do. But I think it's contextual, like Andrew said, for example, I think about in groups and out groups, right? People form groups all the time based on similarities based on shared experiences and characteristics. And to me, tribe represents that. And I think that if a person tells me that they're in a tribe, and it's, and they're very specific about that tribe, of course, I believe in that. But I also think it could apply to other things.
Andrew 13:09
I think of tribe tribe, like, originally, as a catch all term, try to define different groups of people, and that you have its equivalent in languages all over the world, in many different cultures, whether they had contact with each other or not. Having said that, tribes evolve over time. So what may define tribal membership at the beginning doesn't necessarily mean that it will stay the same. It can change over time through many different reasons, such as it grows, two big sections of the group break off and form new tribes, or maybe a sister daughter tribe, others might have a political change that redefines some of the core identities and values that define membership. And some people might just stop using the term tribe, and might use something else such as nation clan, or political party, whatever they choose to identify around. So yes, there is an in group out group dynamic. Yes, there are some elements of identity membership, but what those things are, it's always changing based on what that group is deciding as a collect.
Lisa 14:22
Um, I think one of the reasons I was asking about the questions of boundary is because I really believe that tribe is not as elastic, as Andrew is describing it. I think, in the practical sense. For example, I don't think the Democratic Party is a tribe. I don't think that belong to a sorority means that you're in a tribe, it seems that tribe is something more fundamentally based. And that even as for example, if you imagine the Cherokee Nation for example, as a tribe, though Cherokee might be a bad example because I think they have a lot of flexibility of fluidity in their definitions, it seems like this is something that's fundamental to who you are. And that this is something that you that you are born into, and traditions that you practice throughout the course and stages of your life. It's not membership in the sense that you can either do it or not do it. And can you belong to more than one tribe at a time? Can one person belong to seven tribes, in the same way that one person can belong to several different organizations without having any conflict between them. And so I think that one of the things that I'm holding on to, in terms of my resistance to having this word be used so colloquially, and maybe that's my objection is the colloquial nature of the term is that we are living in an age where we have Native American folks who are trying to have their identities stopped being used for racist mascots, you know, but if you're in Cleveland, Ohio, for example, people say tribe all the time, and tribe means that you're a fan of the Cleveland Indians, which still has a racist mascot, you know, you can go to Florida State, and they're doing the tomahawk chop in the stands. And nobody seems to really care that there are Native American people who find this offensive and racist and demeaning and demoralizing, because they enjoy doing it, you know, they enjoy putting red paint on their faces, and going to sporting events. And so for me, it was about a fundamental need for respect for these groups that even if I'm not a part of it, I'm not a Native American person, I'm not a First Nations person, I have no connections with that, however, because I care about language and because I understand, and my work engages with the power of language all the time, I need to be mindful of how I deploy it, even as I recognize that I'm coming from a position of privilege and power in this case, right that that moves a lot. So like, I'm a black straight woman. And so terms and language, for example, that might be popular in the queer community is not something that I'm going to use, because that's not something that belongs to me, you know, what I'm saying? And so just because I'm marginalized in other aspects of my life, doesn't mean that that again, absolves me from not engaging or problematic terminology.
Jason 17:25
I myself, I'm actually from Cleveland, Ohio. So I understand everything that you're saying concerning a certain sports team that I won't go into very much. I agree, I hate the use of the word specific for the sports team, and many many Clevelanders actually, do we have a lot of pride in our sports teams, though, of course. But in general, I don't think anyone can, or any group of people can just say, tribe is exclusive to me, tribe is exclusive to us. This is an English word that's used to define, you know, a group of people who are have some type of cultural bond, familial bond, this is just a word. Okay, I understand what you're saying in terms of words have meaning and words have power, their meaning types of tribes all throughout the world. And I have nothing but respect for the Native American community, Shawna and I actually do have some Native American and us we're part Choctaw. I'm not even sure you knew that did you know
Shawna 18:29
not say? Okay, Lisa and Andrew, you will have to listen to the show. So you could hear us talk about our are mixed up everything.
Jason 18:40
So what I'm saying if if there was someone who first has had more Choctaw blood in them, they may say to us, oh, well, you're not actually Choctaw, you know, so you can't claim that.
Shawna 18:54
But I do think there are rules about like percentages in your lineage, that you do have to have the quarter or to be recognized as that in terms of any benefits or anything that is specific to natives, like there is a certain percentage.
Jason 19:12
Well, so for 24%, you're just out of luck.
Andrew 19:15
That actually brings up another point of contention for the term tribe, because there is a distinct legal definition parameters for the term tribe that carries with it certain benefits. So with some First Nations people, if they were to, for example, apply for tribal membership in specific bands or groups, they might be eligible for certain government benefits or entitled to special recognition of historical status in land claims. But if you have other people who co OPT the term for a legal fight, and this happened back in the 19th century, early 20th century, with some tribes out in the southwest, you would have people who have No native ancestry whatsoever, claiming something like a native grandmother or grandfather, just so they can take membership in a tribal role and have access to land and resources that would be leased out from the government, helps a tribe but then sell off the land are exploited and use it for their own ends. So there is a very good legal argument for trying to make sure that the terms are clearly defined. So it can't just be used willingly for anyone who wants to use it. Just throwing that out there.
Shawna 20:35
Yeah, no, that's ideas. I definitely wanted to have the different perspectives. I you know, I was never my intent to make anyone upset. But I did just want to be informed. I did want to go back to something you said, Lisa, or a few things, actually, you'd mentioned something about having the right to use that word, if you're born into it. So I was just trying to see if that's how you were relating it Actually,
Lisa 21:00
Yeah, perhaps I am. Perhaps I am. Now I think that many of you all are coming from a perspective of mixed race ancestry. And one of the reasons I think that I was asking about this as a bounded category is because it made me wonder maybe a question for all three of you about what you imagine the benefits are of imagining mixed race folks, as a separate category, a separate tribe unto itself?
Shawna 21:30
Oh, boy,
Lisa 21:31
What is what is the advantage and benefit of having what some would call a third option? I was thinking about this in terms of the way that South Africa organized his racial categories where you had that you had blacks, you had Indians, you had colors, which were a third tier. And I guess maybe one of the questions I have overall about what I'd love to hear your thoughts on is that I what I found in my experience is that many folks who are racially ambiguous or mixed race often are defining themselves over and against blackness, in some have described this as being quote unquote, more than black, whereas other people describe it as being better than black. And so I am very interested. And this was one of the reasons I'm like, are you sure you want to talk to me? Because I am not coming from that same perspective as y'all. So what are your thoughts on that? And I guess that was thinking about what does that mean to link that to being a separate tribe? I am part of the mixed tribe.
Jason 22:33
That was very interesting. Okay, so for myself as a racially ambiguous person, and I've never been black enough. I've never been white enough. I've never been anything enough. So I am a mix of different people of different cultures. I have never been in a position where I considered myself superior, or better, or more than quite often from the African American community ever fed. You know, I've just been in that position where I have not been enough. So I've always been an outsider.
Andrew 23:08
To kind of add to this and throw up my own perspective there. I was actually raised Latin. So most of my family influence was of Mediterranean origin, either Spanish or Italian, even Puerto Rican Islander, and pitino, but physically I would look white. And for me, I have a mixed ancestry. My ancestors were only considered white for the past two to 300 years before that, if you go back 1000s of years, they went by many different names, many different identities, and spent the last 5000 years killing each other over every conceivable reason. So if I were to try to say for example, that I am not white, but Celt, and Latin, with Diana, I would get shut down from all sides. Instead, I get treated as white. And I'm assumed to follow a specific pan white cultural nuance, which means it's fine as long as I play a role, but if I exercise any cultural traits, or identities outside of that I'm somehow looked upon as a deviant. So if I walk around with my cousins in El Paso, who are mostly ethnic Mexican, it's almost like I'm not with my family, to people who are looking at us more like I'm talking to strangers. It feels almost like I'm supposed to be part of a play. And I'm still looking at the script. And I don't like my role. Yeah, that is still very privileged compared to people who do not have that white appearance, who do not have the white background or the white privilege. I am not going to say that I have it nearly as bad as everybody else. It's just if we're talking about men, identity, if mixed is the only parameter for a membership in a tribe, that's just it really doesn't work. There's so many different ways to be mixed.
Shawna 25:09
I so, so agree with you, Andrew. And so, Lisa, I wanted to address your question too. I have to say Jason and I are siblings, but we never lived together, which is why it's kind of cool having him as cohost, because we share a lot. But we definitely see that see it from different perspectives. I 100% agree with him in the not being enough. So I was kind of taken aback, like you said, in your classes, you talk about this concept of being more than black, or better than, and I feel like the same thing like there's, I've never enough of it. And honestly, like I am light skinned. Okay, I always say people think I'm mixed. But I mean, I am I have mixed ancestry, my family is black. And so it has always confused people, a lot of people think that I have different ancestry, or they make assumptions. But I've never ever felt more than black. I don't even feel like I'm always accepted into the black community fully, because I don't look the part I don't know all of the cultural references. And to be fair, like I grew up in Anchorage, Alaska. So it's also different than living in some other of the larger cities. And then I met my husband there when I was quite young, and we've lived around the world for the last 20 years. So not only am I multi ethnic, but I'm also multicultural. Because I've had, I've picked up so many different things, from my different experiences. But I would never say that I'm even close to being more than black or better than black, because I'm not kind of like what Andrew said, and also what Jason said, like, I don't ever feel like I fully fit into any one culture or group of people you asked was this question about? What would it be like to have a separate group, a separate ethnicity just for people of mixed heritage? Is that right? That was your question?
Lisa 27:03
Yes.
Shawna 27:04
Okay. Gosh, I really sat here pondering that. And I think the answer to that is, there can never be. And the reason is, because people of mixed ancestry are mixed with so many different things. So if you had a group of people that were biracial, only, black and white, and keep in mind that that doesn't even meet black and white, doesn't even break it down into the cultures, you can have three different black families with completely different traditions, you can have three different white families with completely different traditions. So just being black and white, to me doesn't make you a type, so to speak. Because you can still have such differences,
Lisa 27:42
That wouldn't count as mixed a person with a black parent and a white parent?
Shawna 27:45
It does. I'm not saying it's not mixed, I'm saying I don't think it could be its separate ethnicity.
Lisa 27:51
Aaah I see
Shawna 27:52
I should ask you what your definitions are, because we might have, we might be working from different definitions. So when I think of race, I think of it as a social construct. It's like just a thing that kind of happened, when in Germany, they wanted to really push the idea of white supremacy. And so the only way to do that was to say that people of color were less than, and they kind of tried to retro actively prove it through science. And it didn't work because it doesn't, it's not true.
Lisa 28:20
And you know, that the Germans learned that from the University of Virginia scientists who built eugenics in the early 20th century. And one great way that I used to think about race is Tallahassee coats saying race is the child of racism, not the father,
Shawna 28:37
It is.
Shawna 28:38
Race is the child of racism, not the father, I love that phrase.
Shawna 28:40
Because it's true. It's like it was like, like I said, it kind of tried to go back and say, See, but it didn't work. Nevertheless, I still use it. Because it's familiar to most people, when you're describing a larger group of people. But that's where ethnicity comes into me. So like, like I said, you can have three white families, but they could be completely different, like one could be of Norwegian descent. One can be of, I don't know, Czech descent, and one could be of German descent, but those are three different cultures. Right? So just saying someone's white doesn't always, I just think it would be impossible to say that there would be an ethnicity or a one particular group that would describe all people of mixed heritage. Yeah.
Lisa 29:25
And I think that that's exactly my point about why you can't really use the word tribe to describe mixed race people. Because mixed race people are not all gonna fit in one tribe.
Shawna 29:38
But I'm not thinking of tribe as ethnicity. I'm thinking of tribe as a group, a group of people with similarities, but those similarities don't have to be ethnic.
Jason 29:51
Right?
Shawna 29:52
I guess that's what I was thinking about. Could because of the reasons like what Andrew said, how he said, if he tried to fit into one of those different groups that all make He is like he, he would never be enough. So he's trying to follow this script to fit in. Or like Jason said, or like I said, we're never enough. Because of that there's always this feeling of being misplaced, which is why I started this podcast. It's just to have that group that community.
Lisa 30:16
I hear that and I and I respect that. I'm going to tell you what to say a couple things that are that this is making me think about. And something I did mention that I do mention in my, my class, when we talk about this question. Is there a difference, for example, in being mixed versus looking mixed? That's one thing that I was thinking about. And I wanted to also a little secret that I think that a lot of folks don't know that the experiences that you're describing about feeling, you know, what, Amiri Baraka called it the BEC, the black enough contest. Feeling inadequate as a black person feeling not black enough or insufficiently black is a tried and true hallmark of being black in America. I am convinced that there are black communities all over America, where kids are teasing each other for not being black enough. I know this to be true in my own life where I am very dark skinned for see hair to black parents. And forever was teased as talking like a white girl or doing this doing that like not being black enough, is I think, I think that black people are pretty good at policing the boundaries of blackness.
Jason 31:38
I agree with that
Shawna 31:40
I know I agree with that too
Lisa 31:42
We are We absolutely are. Well it's so funny like Jason I'm just gonna be totally honest with you when you were saying how you felt like an outsider I was like but do your voice is sending like shivers down my spine because your voice sounds black. You know? He was telling me like you ain't black enough, but I was like, bro, you sound like Luther Vandross. So like, do you? Because you're you're you might not feel black and people might give you shit, but like you sound black as hell on the phone. I'm just saying.
Shawna 32:14
Listen, I know it's true, because there's even a game. I have it upstairs in my house. I haven't opened it yet, but it's called black card revoked.
Lisa 32:21
Oh my god. Oh, sorry about that. Okay, okay, okay.
Shawna 32:27
Wait, wait, wait, wait, I know you want to hear this story. And I promise we're gonna get back to it. But just a quick break, to let you know that the website is out and ready for you to peruse, please check out truecolorscast.com. There, you can find the episodes, you can also find out more about my cohosts and guests that come on the show. And I am working on getting some background information for everyone so that you can have resources, some terms, things like that, that often come up. Also, there you can find my contact information because I really want to hear from you. I'd like to have your feedback. And I want to hear your stories too. Please also let me know what topics you'd like for me to cover in this season. In the next join the conversation help others do the same. More than anything, please support the show by subscribing, sharing encourage others to subscribe. And please leave me a review that way others that are stopping by can see what the show is about and join us in the talk. All right, back to the show.
Lisa 33:32
Sorry about that. Okay, okay. Okay. So a few Christmases ago. Okay, so I am I'm black, black, black, black, black, black, from a distance black, do Black Studies, PhD, Professor of black and literature and culture. I know and consider some folks that you know, you can't tell if you'd be right upon them. And so, my husband have we've been married, what, 2025 years or something. Anyway, he's white, met him in graduate school. He was getting a master's degree in African American Studies. I was minor getting African record studies. You know, sometimes you fall in love with the white guy, what you're gonna do.
Shawna 34:07
And so a marriage mentor.
Lisa 34:08
So we married now, the thing about people always give me a hard time they want to say, well, you married to a white white guy, what you do, you know, Black Lives Matter advocacy, you know, you go to these protests, you write these articles? And I'm like, yeah, cuz he's not an asshole. And he's not a racist.
Jason 34:21
Right, right.
Lisa 34:22
Like, why?
Jason 34:23
What's the problem?
Shawna 34:27
Like?
Andrew 34:28
I don't see how being white or conflict of actually valuing other people's lives, regardless of what they look like on the outside.
Shawna 34:37
That people do pass judgment. It doesn't. But people still ask the question.
Lisa 34:42
They don't get it. People want to revoke my black car all the time. And I'm just like, you know what, whatever, you know, you you look at my work and you, you know, compare what you're doing and what what I'm doing. But we had this wonderful picture because we did the black cart revolt game. And it was so funny. We had these two great examples. One example was, it was one card. And everybody the table, of course knew it except my husband who didn't know it. So we sent that picture man to them for Instagram. And so this is him holding up the wrong answer, because he didn't know that Gayle King was Oprah's best friend or whatever. But there was another card that asked when the first Civil Rights Act was passed. And he knew that because he went to law school, and all the rest of us didn't know it. And so it was like, the one time that he like, you know, like out black dust in the black car. So it was pretty, you know, he went to law school and again, made it African America, study. So there's a lot of stuff that you do. But the thing that gives those games such joy, is the fact that there's so many different types of ways to be black. And that's what fictions of black identity as a course was about. And so for me, I, I find it because I pay attention so much to dismantling white supremacy. Because I know that America, in its earliest days, resides on a bedrock foundation of anti-black racism. I am very sensitive to cultural or social formations that array themselves in my mind against blackness. And sometimes I see that mixed race sometimes is deployed as one of those types of formulations.
Shawna 36:25
Wait deployed this as how?
Lisa 36:28
As being as a formulation that sees itself as separate from better than should be elevated above blackness? Because blackness is the bedrock anti-black racism is such a bedrock fundamental idea. So for example, real quick, Toni Morrison described this in her essay playing in the dark. And she describes, for example, how European immigrants would come to the US at the turn of the century 19th to 20th. And essentially, their whiteness, which didn't mean anything in their home countries, meant everything when they got here. And so what they basically needed to do was what she says learn to say nigger, and once they learn to say nigger, that put them in the upper echelon of society, right, because they were better than black.
Shawna 37:14
Okay, I get it, I'm just trying to understand in terms of being mixed race, so like I am, right, my family is multi ethnic, but I have never identified that way I have always identified as being multiracial black. Only in the recent years, I would say, like I said, when I first started to talk to Jason, when he and I started to get to know each other, did I begin to explore that other part of my family? And so I never I always knew how I looked or whatever, people ask me questions, like my entire childhood, but uh, I still never saw myself that way. Because whenever I had my mom, my mom was black like, buts, my family, I just knew that I looked a little bit different. However, I have never, I can't even say that I fully relate to someone who does identify as biracial or multiracial, which is why racially ambiguous, it's not about being mixed. And the reason is, because I think that people can assign something to you or they try to categories you in a way, yes, based on the way you look, or what they think about how you speak, or whatever about you. Never having any idea of how you identify so that I purposefully created this, not for being mixed not for being multiracial, but for being racially ambiguous, because you can still experience many of the same things, even if you don't come from that world. The other thing is, you talked about mascots. And Jason mentioned it too. I'm in the DC area, right? So we have the Washington Redskins. So it's it's the same, it's the same and every single year, there is a debate. I hear it on the radio, I heard on the news, they talk about it. People don't want to change it because of tradition. But they know it's not right. I think it's so I would say like, you know, and the other sporting teams that we know exist, it is incredibly insensitive. I don't equate using the word tribe with using something like Redskins. Like, to me that's different. This is why I asked you to come on because I it could be that I just really need that different perspective. But I don't see the same. Lisa, you said something like you were talking about different words for groups, and one of them was clan. So just a quick story. When finally my family was letting go of, like Hotmail. We needed to get our Gmail going. And I think I was gonna call us My last name is Gann. So you know, me and my words, I was gonna call us the Gann clan and I had a cousin that flipped all the way out. Because I used the word clan, but I didn't see it that way. I saw the word clan as a group of people. It's our family, where the Gann clan Good lord.
Lisa 39:55
I think I'm on. I'm on your cousin of what he
Shawna 39:59
That was not my email address. But I was like, doesn't mean if you say the word clan in the UK, no one is thinking about those guys in the white hoods.
Lisa 40:09
Um, can I tell you something really quickly?
Shawna 40:11
Yeah,
Lisa 40:12
I am in Charlottesville, Virginia. And in 2017, Charlottesville, Virginia was under siege by white supremacists all summer long. And they we had Klan rallies white supremacist torch rallies. In May, June, July and August, we had the biggest white nationalist rally in modern history. right down the street from my house.
Jason 40:39
Wow.
Lisa 40:40
Absolutely. right across the street from my, my kids learn to cook right across with my with my kid got his hair cut right across from the Public Library. There were brawls in the streets. I was out there working in a variety of capacities as protesting and doing on the art team and all these other things. And as we were marching after the white supremacist got ejected from their Park, you can find this a lot if you Google, Charlottesville 2017, this will all come up for you. But we were marching and just as we prepared to turn left a car cat crash through the crowd, killing one woman and injuring 17-18 people, people who are friends, people that we knew, right in front of us, we woke up screaming for weeks. This completely, it was shocking. It was horrifying, it was traumatic. And this was worked. And again, I had always been doing the work in African American literature and culture, I had been teaching these things for more than 20 years. You know, I had this background in this context. But for me, I realized that what we what for and this is why my focus in my podcast and and other things that I do is about dismantling the systems of white supremacy, even in things such as language and vocabulary. So for me, no one is going to ever be able to convince me even though I have a PhD in English, that clan, in an American context is just a neutral term, that can mean whatever we say it means. Of course, I know what clan means we're spelling clan with a C, for goodness sake. I get it. But I'm telling you that as someone who had their life endangered by white supremacist violence, I recognize that violence and the ground that was laid for that violence is linguistic, its curricular. It shows up in how we do things and how we navigate the world. And when you were saying that, it seems like it's insensitive. It's not just insensitive, it is somehow rolling out the red carpet to neutralize these really harmful racist ideas. And that's one of the things I guess that I think a lot about is that white supremacy isn't just, you know, the KKK, that white supremacy is telling someone that you are pretty for a black girl, you know, it's helping to, it shows up in so many ways, and it requires us and though some people don't like this word, but it requires us to decolonize our thinking, if we are ever going to try to fix it, you know, and eliminate it and get the better world we all deserve.
Shawna 43:25
I mean, I wasn't here I was overseas, but I knew all about this. And it's crazy that you witnessed it like live that you were part of that experience.
Lisa 43:36
It was the worst worst day of my life. Absolutely but totally worth it.
Shawna 43:40
I mean, I can imagine how horrifying that would be. But I just want to thank you all. We've talked for nearly an hour now I see that it's just such a good conversation. And I mean, again, I did, which to Jason was a fan of the title. He didn't want me to change it.
Jason 44:01
Not at all.
Shawna 44:02
And he wasn't the only I had several people who were like my son vehemently was like, against my changing it. One of my best friends, she feels you know, she felt she she's one of the strongest black women that I know. And she was like, No, that's a strong name. That's who you are. That's represent you, you know, and, but I just couldn't overlook it. I really couldn't tell like I mean, he will tell you Jason, because even he and I kind of we kind of we come a moment where he was a little upset with me. And I said,
Jason 44:40
We get involved,
Lisa 44:41
What I love about this shot, what I really love about you and Jason arguing about this, and one of the reasons why I think it does fold into the narrative of the Washington sports team and the Cleveland sports team is because there are some people who are having this exact same conversation within their families about using the word Redskins. It's not right. It's Tradition, I like it. I know a Native American person who doesn't even care about it, they've got bigger issues, you know, they got out the water rights, you know, they don't care about what we call our sports team. And so I think it's important for us to check our privileges. And I know I often tell people to do this all the time. But I think as a black woman, I need to do a two. And if just because it's not something that's going to be harmful to me, or problematic for me, I would expect the same courtesy, if somebody was using terms that I believe are organic, and stem from a come from black folks, I would want them to defend that as well. And so that's what I really definitely see the topic that you all had and like, love it, you know, but there's a lot of people who love some racist shit out there. And we know that and
Shawna 45:50
It's true. And also to say, it's not, it's not just about coming at it from a race or an ethnic perspective, I think of it also as nationality. If you used the word clan in a different place, it would no one, it wouldn't be associated with American history, or the troubles that we have in America. So I think that that makes a difference. Also, you talked about checking your privilege, every once in a while, you know, we I lived overseas for a long time, in a variety of places. And every once in a while you have to check your American privilege, right? It's not just your race or your ethnicity, or, or where you're coming from, in your home. Like sometimes you don't realize it goes back to not knowing what you don't know, I don't know what I don't know, which is why I really wanted to explore this because like I'm telling you, just as there are some well-meaning folks out there who don't mean any harm against any ethnic group, sometimes people say or do things that they think are okay, because they can't really see it. And I'm humble enough to tell you that this is one of those times where I really struggled with this. Because I know this is a passion of mine. Culture, diversity. inclusivity This is part of my work. This is part of my my studies. It's just who I am and who I've always been. So to wrestle with, that was a big deal for me. And I really had to like, I'm like, I just got to break this down, because I just can't see it. So
Lisa 47:21
I think that's so wonderful that you're willing to do that, that you have that kind of self-awareness to kind of, you know, have your process become public. I was thinking when you're talking about living overseas is is one TV show on Netflix that I absolutely love. And it was a it was set in Ireland. I'm blanking on the name, but it's about this family. And it's during a time of the troubles. And just as I'm not gonna remember, but one of the things I love the show was really very funny of a group of Irish school kids, and they call their mother, mammy. That's what they call their mother.
Jason 47:52
Wow.
Lisa 47:53
Now this if this makes sense, you know, oh, yeah. Mommy, Mommy, Mommy, Mommy, you know. And I was like, Oh my gosh, like every time they started out, like Lisa, calm down. This is how they use this word. But there's no way that they could come here and start talking about calling other people's mothers Mommy, you know,
Shawna 48:16
That goes right back to what Andrew said about context.
Lisa 48:19
Exactly. Exactly.
Andrew 48:22
And knowing your audience as because it's not just what you say and what you come from. It's what everyone else around you what they experience.
Shawna 48:31
Absolutely.
Andrew 48:32
I remember this one scene from Star Wars and I know this sounds completely off topic, but it was the scene with Java and yet what looks like a little alien with him that looks like a parrot beak. But however wrapping in it was supposedly speaking in alien language, but then it said what I heard. And I know Spanish obscenities or Castilian absurdities. It sounded like it said one most foul Spanish obscenities. You could say.
Shawna 49:05
Star Wars.
Andrew 49:06
Yeah, I was a kid. But I saw that on TV. It was like, Hey, wait a sec. Did that thing just say?
Shawna 49:14
Whoops. Yeah.
Lisa 49:18
And that's why and that's why I disagree with Jason, when you said that, you know, words are just words. They just, and I don't think that's true at all. Because if that's the case, people won't be like, no one will be taken aback when someone names their baby apple. You know what I mean? Like, we know that words, you know, have meanings and you know what I mean? Well, I certainly was taken aback by that.
Jason 49:39
No. The words absolutely have meaning and we associate a lot of emotion to them. Yes. You know, clearly and I think that's what part of the all of this is about. People are putting a lot of emotion to the word tribe. Okay, fair enough. However, you know, I am using the definition you know, the Webster's dictionary definition of the word tribe. That is how I'm considering this. And I don't think anyone has the right to tell anyone else that, you know, oh, no, you're not a tribe. No, no, you're not a tribe. I'm gonna use the word tribe that because, you know, historically that is what we have been known more so for.
Lisa 50:15
Yeah, I think I disagree. I think that's a cop out. I think relying on the Webster's dictionary definition of anything is not compatible with how most people live everyday.
Shawna 50:25
Well, I mean, that's why the dictionaries do provide several definitions.
Jason 50:29
Yeah.
Shawna 50:30
There are there are different. It does. I mean, at least I think Merriam, I'm okay, I'm not going to get into which definite which dictionaries, but I would say
Lisa 50:39
Those dictionary has like,
Shawna 50:40
Okay, now, that was German just now. Exactly. So, I think that, you know, the people who are trying to be the historians of our language of English, really do try to show the different definitions, and then it's up to us, how we use them, but we also have to be willing to accept the consequences. That that's kind of that so well, guys, I'm gonna close this out. But I just really can't thank you enough for for being open and honest, and for having this discussion. I mean, it's really great to be able to have these different perspectives and and I hope that the listeners will, will get a lot of at this too, and that it will kind of spark some other discussion. I think these are good things to talk about. Andrew, thank you so much for joining us today, too. I really appreciate your insight as well.
Andrew 51:28
Glad to be here.
Shawna 51:29
Thanks so much. Nice meeting y'all enjoy the rest of you. Well, that's all for this episode. Thank you for joining the talk. I do hope you found it as interesting as I did. In fact, I'd love to know your thoughts, please email me at truecolors@shawnagann.com. Or you can stop by the website truecolorscast.com, where you can find out more about the show including my cohosts, and my guests like today's guest Lisa, who is the creator of black woman stitch the sewing group where black lives matter. She's the host and producer of stitch please the podcast that centers black women girls and femmes in the sewing community. You can follow her on Instagram @Blackwomanstitch and find the stitch pleased podcast on iTunes, Spotify and most podcast platforms. She's also an English professor at the University of Virginia, where she specializes in African American literature and culture. Stay tuned guys next week, there's going to be a continuation of this conversation. Make sure that you subscribe so that you never miss an episode. Until then, be safe out there, y'all. Please share a smile with someone and find an opportunity to make someone feel welcome, love y'all Talk to you soon.