Perceptions and Belonging with Dr. Jacqueline M. Chen

At the time we recorded this episode, Dr. Jacqueline Chen (Jackie) was an Assistant Professor of Psychology at the University of Utah. She is a California native now living and working in Salt Lake City. Dr. Jacqueline M. Chen is an Assistant Professor of Psychology at the University of Utah. A California native, she now lives and works in Salt Lake City. The majority of her research focuses on understanding how monoracial people (White Americans, Asian Americans, Black Americans) perceive and view multiracial individuals, specifically whether they are likely to view multiracial people as fellow group members. 

In this episode, she and I discuss fitting in or belonging from the perspective of "perceivers", those who try to discern the racial or ethnic background of others.

To see more of Jackie's work, check out a recent article that she published with her graduate student, Jasmine Norman: "I Am Multiracial".

Want to be a guest or know someone who should join us? Click this link to complete the guest interest form.

Don't forget to subscribe and follow us on Instagram and new for Season 5, check us out on YouTube, and TikTok, and keep up with True Culture on LinkedIn.

If this is your first time with OTC, check out EPISODE 1: START HERE for more background on the show.

Our True Colors is sponsored by True Culture Coaching & Consulting. Head to our website to find out how True Culture Coaching and Consulting can support you and your organization, and subscribe to our LinkedIn Newsletter, The Culture Clinic, for more great content. You can find us at truecultureconsulting.com where you can also contact us to schedule a free consultation.

Transcript

(Transcribed by Otter.ai)

Intro  00:06

Welcome to our True Colors hosted by Shawna Gann. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial, racial, and ethnic enigma and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.

Shawna  00:20

Buon Giorno, Fratello mio. Como stai? 

Jason  00:25

ummm...Asi asi?

Shawna  00:26

Asi Asi... I like that I we did a little battalion there. I always do that when I try to speak Spanish. And then it comes out of tie in.

Jason  00:36

I don't know what you just said, but okay.

Shawna  00:41

I was embracing my Italian language nests because I watched Moonstruck the other night,

Jason  00:50

so I thought I would share it is Nicolas Cage. Yes.

Shawna  00:56

I do not know why I watch. Oh, I think I was trying to find a movie. It was on prime or something. And I was like, Oh, my gosh.

Jason  01:04

Moonstruck you know, it's been a long time.

Shawna  01:06

So I watched it, and I've those, you know, just embracing Italian. I said, What's up, brother? How you doing? Oh, that

Jason  01:15

I understand. Okay. I'm well, thank you.

Shawna  01:22

I'm glad to hear it. Okay.

Jason  01:25

I still remember when you were over there and you were like Jay said you've got to try it. What's the god the the was it the limoncello at the ice cream? What do you call it?

Shawna  01:36

Oh, gelato? 

Jason  01:36

gelato. Yes.

Jason  01:39

you were you've got to try. It's like It's like ice cream, but not ice cream. It's like the ice cream of the gods. I'm like,

Shawna  01:45

oh, okay, but because it is though.

Jason  01:50

You know, I tried it. Well, at least I tried whatever the hell I found some place. And maybe it's just like really crappy quality. But also

Shawna  01:58

now, listen, they are not all created equally. In fact, I have. They're not I have like my little here's here, I'll give you my my little test. And it's a visual test. It's really easy. So you don't have to spend money at first. You know, if you look at it, and you say, oh, no, no, no, that's not gonna pass the test. And here's the thing in America. Gelato is so overpriced. It drives me crazy. Because in Italy, you walk around and basically listen, I think we've probably taste tested just about every gelato area in northern Italy. I think we tried to anyway, but it's like, maybe one euro one euro 50 for a decent sized scoop. And you know, in the States, they want to charge like four or five bucks for No, no. Okay, so I know I'm a gelato snob. I'm sorry. But here's the trick. If you come across a gelato stand or someplace like sometimes you know, cafes are having gelato. If it's shiny, if the ice cream is shiny, don't get it because it's too syrupy. There's too much sugar in it. Always look for matte. If it's like, you know, like a flat color, matte

Jason  03:06

versus glossy. I definitely understand

Shawna  03:07

that. Oh, yeah, I got to a little background for listeners, you're going to explain your reference to matte versus glossy and why why that's meaningful to you.

Jason  03:18

Oh, yeah. Photographer. Stuff did that for many years. Oh,

Shawna  03:22

my God. I know, but you make it sound like yeah,

Jason  03:28

whatever. You know, it's just so because every you know, like, this is my art. This is my craft. This is what I love. Okay. But when someone says I'm a photographer, you know, people are like, Oh, you got a nice iPhone camera. You know what I mean? Or something like that. So, when you say it out loud, the word photographer doesn't mean much anymore. So

Shawna  03:50

yeah, I think it does. I think there's a difference between being a photographer and a person who takes pictures.

Jason  03:56

No, absolutely. I agree to but you know, everyone's a photographer now. So

Shawna  04:01

not me. So. Okay, so in your world, which which is better, matte or glossy?

Jason  04:11

Depends on the situation depends on the image. So it's difficult to say.

Shawna  04:16

Okay, that's fair. In my world of gelato always Matt. So

Jason  04:21

Matt and July met in july two. Yes.

Shawna  04:24

About Lehman cello. Yes. Lehman cello Absolutely. Is still like near and dear to my heart. So much so that I make my own.

Jason  04:34

Yeah, I remember you telling me that. Yes.

Shawna  04:37

And fact I have some like it'll be ready probably in about 20 Some days. So you have to it takes like, there's like two phases, and you can make it pretty quickly. There's a lot of internet recipes out there. But listen, first of all, I think it's better to zest the lemon not peel it. I like to soak my zest appeal because like Like it pulls more of the oils out. And the second thing is a lot of these recipes will be like, you know, they'll tell you, you have to let it sit for so long. But really 10 days is long enough, it's not long enough, it's not good. I do 45 days, then I add my sugars. And after I've done my filtering, and so on, and then another 45 days, and also use real grain alcohol, not vodka. Okay, moving on,

Jason  05:24

you hit me a grain alcohol.

Shawna  05:29

I don't know why we are why I led us into the world of Italia. Because that's not really our topic today. I better get back to our guest. Our guest is Jacqueline chin, and she's an assistant professor of psychology at the University of Utah. She is a California native, but she now lives and works in Salt Lake City. And really her work is all about studying how we think about race. And moreover, how mono racial people think about multiracial people. So, you know, people tend to put each other in these boxes. Right. But if you are a person with multiple racial backgrounds, or you know, if you're multi ethnic, you are probably coming at life with a lot of different perspective anyway, especially if you are grown up in the culture to for the various cultures. But for folks who have only their only mono racial, or they've grown up only in one type of culture, how they perceive others. Yeah, that's what we're, we're learning about. S  o that's what she studies. Okay, cool. Cool. Yeah. Thanks for hanging out with me today, as we learn from Jackie Chen. Absolutely.

Jason  06:48

Thank you. It's gonna cost you some gelato later, though.

Shawna  06:50

Dude, I'm down!

Shawna  07:04

Well, Jackie, thank you so much for joining me on the show. I'm super glad that you're here.

Jackie  07:08

Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I'm

Shawna  07:11

really excited because you do some really interesting studies. And just from our discussion that we've had before, you've got some interesting experiences yourself, would you mind telling a little bit about yourself and kind of how you got to what you're doing now, in terms of your studies? Absolutely.

Jackie  07:31

So the bulk of my work is focused on understanding how people think about race, and in particular, how we think about people who belong to multiple racial groups. And it's very personal how my interest in this topic started. So I'm originally from California, and I have a pretty multicultural family. And so several of my aunts and uncles have married people of different races. And so I have cousins, who are multiracial. They're a little bit younger than me. So I remember sitting in, in graduate school and learning about these models of person perception and impression formation. And when we learned about the models, it was always taken for granted that in the first stages of impression formation, you would be able to automatically tell what someone's race was, what their gender was, and what their approximate age was. And I remember sitting in class and thinking, but sometimes you can't really tell what someone's race is right away. And so then what happens to the whole impression formation process? And so this was a class with my doctoral adviser Dave Hamilton. And so after class, I asked him, you know, what about mixed race people. And that's where we got started. That's how this entire line of research got started. Because it was an interesting question, but also something that is important and timely within our society with, you know, not just within my family, but it's more and more common for Americans to have a multiracial family and to know multiracial people. And so in our field of social psychology and trying to understand impression formation, we really need to broaden our understanding of those processes, because they are, it's not always going to be true that you can tell the race of a person when you first meet them. Absolutely.

Shawna  09:27

And I 100% agree with you. And I'm over here kind of like doing the silent clap. That's That's how I feel. In fact, this whole idea is kind of what got me into my studies too. I mean, my My study is specifically about racially ambiguous women and it has more to do with business and because because my program is business psychology, but it's still founded and many of those basic sociological ideals Right. And so it's always very interesting. All the listeners will have heard me say this a million times by now, but I am technically multiracial. But I've never identified that way. I've always just seen myself as a black woman or black girl. Interesting. Yeah, it's just because I think it's, maybe it has something to do with black culture. And that idea of hypo descent were kind of like the one drop rule. I think that was just sort of ingrained in me growing up, like, if you're a little bit of black, you're all black kind of thing. I've used Barack Obama's as an example. A lot. I mean, he is biracial. But I hardly ever hear anyone talk about him as being the first biracial president. Right, right. What do you hear is the first black president. So that is, I think that's interesting. Maybe I will ask you some questions about self identity a little bit later, as we kind of dive into your your studies. But yeah, I just applaud the fact that you took the time and asked or kind of questioned what you were being presented with? Because I think so often we take, we just take things in as they're presented to us. Oh, okay. Well, everyone can determine these things about people upon

Jackie  11:21

them, I think, yeah. And it's, it's the same goes for something like gender, you know, it's more common now. I think that you might interact with people who are gender non conforming, or gender bending. And so you may not readily perceive their gender. And I think these types of cases can throw us as individual perceivers, really, of whack, like in terms of being like, Oh, wow, like, what is this person's kind of startling or surprising. And then in our, you know, in the field of social psychology, I think we need to do a better job, we and people are doing research on these topics. Now, trying to understand, you know, what happens when people's group memberships that are usually clear, are actually ambiguous?

Shawna  12:10

No, agreed. It can be a tricky thing. But I think people are afraid of making mistake of saying the wrong thing, or of jumping to a conclusion. Because we've had much more discussion, there's much more being talked about in terms of identity. And we went through the whole PC movement and the 90s, you know, everything was politically correct, or trying to be politically correct. And it got to a point where there's almost people have become almost satirical about that. And in fact, I think why No, I owned some books that were like politically correct bedtime stories, it was completely making fun of being politically correct. I mean, I'm not gonna lie, like it was really funny. But you know, it's true. It's like, how can you be so careful? And respect people's identities and how they identify when it's human nature to just start to categorize people? Right.

Jackie  13:09

I think it's important that people realize it's, it's human nature to be curious about the group memberships of others, especially if you can't tell what someone is, I think the tricky part that a lot of people run into is like, if you can't tell what someone is, how can you ask in a politically correct or socially sensitive way? And I don't know about your experience, but I have a lot of multiracial people tell me, Oh, my gosh, people just walk up to me like, What are you? What are you? Oh, doesn't matter, you know, and that's the end of the interaction, like, what are you? And then they answer, and then that's it? Yeah.

Shawna  13:45

I haven't had that. I've never had anyone just randomly walk up and ask me that question. But I have been asked that question a lot. In fact, when I when this podcast was being conceived, and I was kicking around names, from the very beginning, one of my earlier surveys, I had kind of a writing option. And one of the suggestions was, the title should be no, seriously, what are you?

Shawna  14:12

I was like, I kind of almost want to go with because really, that's that has been my experience. Some people try to ask in different ways, like, what's your background? Or where are you from? Or where are your parents from? I've gotten that before. And then there's those who assume, by language, I have been approached with Spanish so many times, so many times and I'm like, the little bit of Spanish that I have is because I studied it in high school and college. That's it. It's not because it's any part of my culture. I was going to ask you about that question. What are you what your your own experiences are? I'm less touchy about it nowadays. It used to bother me so much. So what are your feelings?

Jackie  14:58

I think I Try, you know, I tell when I teach this type of work in my class, I often get students who come up to me and they're like, but what if you just start trying to get to know someone? And like, how can you? Like what if you just are genuinely curious and you have a conversation? Why can't you ask what their background is? And I think that's an important question. So I like to think about and draw the distinction between people who are asking the question, because it's about you, and they want to get to know you, versus asking the question, because it's about them, and they want to satisfy their curiosity. For me, I you know, though you can't, you don't know for sure. And what's, what motives are behind people's behavior? I think for me, it helps to know that, you know, sometimes people are trying to get to know you and relate to you. And so maybe they're not asking it in a smooth way, maybe it's a little bit clumsy. But I guess maybe I'm like you in that when I was younger, it probably bothered me more. And now, you know, I try to just give everyone the benefit of the doubt and say, they're probably just trying to ask a question to relate to me. So for myself, I'm just mono racial, Asian American, to the best of my knowledge. And a lot of people will ask, you know, where are you from? Or what's your, what's your cultural background? And I think they're basically trying to ask what type of Asian I am. And so I think, you know, depending on my mood or the context, I'll answer, you know, I'm from California, which is true. I might say, Well, I'm from California, but my family is originally from China. And so I guess those are the two different answers I would give, depending on, you know, whether I think the person is just asking for their own curiosity, or if they are asking because they're legitimately interested.

Shawna  16:54

Mm hmm. I mean, yeah, it does depend on the context, I suppose. I think in both cases, whether the person is trying to get to know me or they're curious, I feel like I just kind of assume or go with the fact that they're curious, because even if they're getting to know you, they're still curious. Sure. Yeah. So I just kind of think of it that way. And I just think it's one of those things, it's really difficult to ask in a sensitive way. Also, I think, as I've gotten older, I more readily recognize that people can't please me, I think when I was younger, and I was a kid, and I was seen with my mom, my mom is she's she's a brown woman. So I think then, it was maybe I found more found it to be more offensive, because people would think like I was adopted. Or they just couldn't believe that. I look the way I look with my mother having such a darker complexion than I do, or something like that. And it was very almost dehumanizing to say, what are you? I do school people, though, I met someone last spring, we were at an event, university event. So we were each talking about our different topics of study, etc. And I was explaining mine, and explained how I got to it. And or decided on the topic, which was, you know, based heavily on my own experiences, and that there's so little literature out there. She seemed interested, asked a few questions, but then

Shawna  18:30

was like, Okay, but what are you? Like, okay, I told her in the kindest way that I could have said, I'm going to answer your question. But before I do, I just want to say, Please don't ask anyone that question. At least not in that way. You know, and I said, and I gave her the reasons why, you know, and he said, we're kind of we're in a safe place, you know, I'm not going to attack her for asking me that.

Jackie  18:57

I would, my ideal way of asking the question would be something like, what, how do you identify racially? Or what's your racial identity, though? I feel like, it's hard to ask the question without sounding like a race researcher. And so, you know, I think we really, like but that's really the question that I'm interested in, you know, like you were to I found it really interesting what you're saying you've never identified as multiracial. And I think, you know, that's kind of what if you're, if you have a genuine curiosity about someone you're trying to get to know them. I think it's interesting to think, Okay, well, what is your ethnic background, but also how do you identify?

Shawna  19:37

So I agree with you, but I think the reason I answered her that way or coached her to ask that question, is because her question had more to do with how I looked, then how I felt right? So I know that the reason people ask me that is because it's the tip of that iceberg, right? It's those first impressions. Yeah. It's like, they're not caring right now. But that 80% below the surface. Yeah. And that moment, they want to know why my hair looks the way it does, why my skin looks, how it does and why I don't seem to fit any racial category that they're familiar with.

Shawna  20:16

But with people that I know better, or if the topic or the reason for the conversation is going that way, that's when I get into how I identify, or sometimes I'll just say, like, I'll be like, Well, okay, so my mother's side of the family is, is black. And then my father's side of the family is Creole, which includes black, and then the, you know, that opens up the whole I gotta explain recreo Yes, yeah. And, and why I use the term black and not African American. It's just so it depends on how deep I want to get into it. You know, yeah. Yeah. But whenever people ask me questions like, for bureaucrats, bureaucratic reasons, like if it's an HR thing, or if I'm filling out forms, or whatever, I just checked black.

Jackie  21:02

It's interesting, because I have students, so when I teach in my class, you know, about hypo descent, the one drop rule, and that a lot of perceivers will look at a black, white biracial person and consider them to be black like President Obama. Sometimes the students will interpret that as me saying, Those people are racist, that to look at a biracial person and call them black is racist. And of course, that's not what I'm saying. I'm just describing hypo descent, and, you know, in the context of our country's history, and I think sometimes, you know, people, let's say, it's also true that if you survey biracial individual, black, white biracial individuals, more people will say they identify as black than as multiracial or white. So I'm just curious about what you think about the fact that sometimes people, so it's both statistically more accurate to see a black, white bi racial person as black. But then also, as some perceivers are saying, Oh, is that are you saying That's racist to do that?

Shawna  22:13

Okay, so I guess I have a couple of thoughts about that. The first I want to talk about the use of racist the word racist or racism when describing people. I have heard people say, when they're describing someone, like, they'll say, How can I, I met, I met this person, and they were, you know, telling me about their job. And it's really interesting. And, you know, it's that new person, it's that new person that started that guy, you know, that guy. And then they're like, Well, who was it? And in their head, they're picturing this black guy that they talked to, but they're afraid to say he's that new black guy. Because they, I think people have been drilled so much about how to be racially sensitive. Yeah, they're afraid to describe someone, according to how they might phenotypically present phenotype, let me explain it. So phenotyping, their outward features that kind of lend themselves to what we imagine in terms of our schema of which racial category someone might fit in. And so they're afraid to say black or Asian or white or something like that, because they think that using the, the terms as descriptors is racist, right. And I'm like, No, that's not what racism is. You know, that's, that's not at all what that is, what you're describing is someone's outward appearance. Right. And, and I get it too, or that can be a double edged sword, because maybe I'm describing someone who's black who doesn't identify that way. Like, like someone describing me by be like, you know, that, that that Latina girl. Right, and they're all wrong. Yeah. But I don't think of that as racism. 

Shawna  24:08

For the same reasons that I don't consider discussing hypo descent. And what that is as being racist. I certainly don't consider myself racist, because I think of myself as black. You know, it's just Well, first of all, like you said, hypo descent is, I mean, that's part of our history. It's a sad part of our history, but it's very real, and it's something that has lingered to do how things are today. And unfortunately, that is as a result of racism because of the the power that came with that. Right. So, I mean, I think that that also is, like I said, at least in my case, I certainly don't want to speak for everyone but I believe I identify the way that I do. Because that was culturally the way I was taught. Like, from my family, they're like, now if you're a little bit of black, you're all black. I mean, it wasn't said that way. But that's just how I was taught. Even my own kids like I don't. I don't look at them and think of them as black. I do think of them as biracial. Okay. It's interesting, because I keep saying one of these days, I'm going to have them on the show. My son and my daughter, they look almost identical actually, in the way their faces are and just the way they are. But my son identifies as being white, or he'll say he's biracial or white, where my daughter says she's biracial or black. And both of them look white to me. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, I do think it's interesting. I asked my son about it. And, like, my daughter doesn't really have a reason why she's just just like, I don't know, that's just how I feel my son. I think, for him, it was more about, he was tired of trying to explain why he looks like he looks and how he could possibly have a mom who's black, and then they find me, they're like, No, she's not.

Jackie  26:18

Right. But that's an interesting phenomenon, because I think it really hammers home the point that our, our racial identities and experiences are, you know, they're fundamentally shaped but shaped by our experiences with others, and the feedback that we get from people. So you know, if he's like, I'm just tired of explaining or, you know, then I say I'm this but then people say, No, you're not or not doesn't look that way. I think it's important to realize that, especially with children, these types of this type of feedback that you might be giving implicitly, indirectly or directly, can shape their their sense of self or racial identity. Is

Shawna  27:04

that a study that you've done or something that you're? That's

Jackie  27:07

something that we're Yeah, so not with? With young adults, we've looked at this dynamic of social feedback and how that shapes multiracial people's identities. We were, we went into that study thinking, you know, there are a lot of people who are multiracial, are mixed ancestry. But according to a recent Pew report, only about four or five out of every 10 mixed race people identifies as multiracial. And so I like to think about, you know, multiracial people, in some sense, have a lot of different options or choices about how they could identify. And so it's, you know, it's interesting to think, what are the factors that play a role in shaping their identification? And so in our research, we were particularly interested in understanding who would identify strongly as multiracial, and why they might identify that way. And we basically found that the strongest predictor was your feedback on how you looked. And that, you know, among multiracial people among mixed ancestry people, it was people who said, you know, people come up to me to ask me what I am, a lot of the time, they find me racially ambiguous. It was those people who were more likely to identify as multiracial. And then on top of that, it was it tended to be people so racially ambiguous looking people who perceived that they had experiences of discrimination from there. Like their minority side and their white side, and in particular, from discrimination from their white side was that was more strongly related to identifying as multiracial.

Shawna  29:07

Interesting, so I think I might fall into the other 50% percent because but I think my reasons are different. Well, first of all, I didn't have parents that were black, white, so I never felt like I was caught between these two worlds. I see. So I didn't really have white culture, let's say or I didn't relate with that in any way. Other the only way I could say that that was part of my life was just any social experiences I had like at school or something like that. However, I did face a lot of discrimination from black kids in school. Who well is discrimination the right word? Yeah, cuz I want to

Jackie  29:55

be part of their group. Yeah, like sir. Or

Shawna  29:59

yeah, like yeah, just They didn't want to be my friends, because I wasn't black enough. I also got accused of trying to be someone that I'm not like, they would say, Why are you always trying to be white or things like that. But I wasn't, I was just trying to be me. But that's just what I experienced. And then I think the other piece in terms of identification, self identification, is honestly like, I until until the advent of ancestry, DNA and 23andme. I took both of those tests, just because I had been curious my entire life, until I saw those results, like on pretty graphs and maps, I didn't really know other than, like, the narrative that I was given growing up, right. So in my head, I was just black. And on top of that, even though I would look at myself and see that I did not, like I never looked like the other black kids, let's say, in my neighborhood, or in class or something like that. I felt like I kind of looked mixed. And, but I knew that I wasn't. And I also didn't have some of those other features, like, you know, I don't have light eyes, I have dark brown eyes, my hair is very tight and curly. And I wear it in a variety of ways. So people probably don't even know which was my natural hair. Because they change it all the time. But my natural hair is pretty coarse and curly, and, and so on. I don't have the bouncy curls that I stereotypically imagine when I think of a mixed girl, you know, like growing up. So I didn't feel like that would be right to even claim that for myself. And on top of that, it almost would feel like some sort of betrayal to my family. I would I feel like if I were to claim some other racial identity, or ethnic identity, even if it meant adding one, not just like being mono racial, yeah, that it would be some sort of betrayal to them. Not to say that anyone ever told me that that would be the case?

Jackie  32:15

I think that makes sense. Because if you were to cultivate an identity that's separate or different, right? It's dissimilar from from others from your close others. And so in a way I could see feeling like that's creating a distance like specifically differentiating yourself from other people.

Shawna  32:37

Yeah, I don't know. And, of course, when you're in this kind of a situation, the last thing you want is to create distance. You know, hey, it's my premise of the show is just, I wanted to have some sort of platform where people could feel like what they're experiencing is valid, and others are experiencing it with them. And that there was some place where there could be a sense of belonging, because they're much of my life, I've never felt that I fit in anywhere, despite how I identify.

Jackie  33:09

I think that's, that's really interesting. And I think, you know, it's also interesting, because it can happen for people who are not multiracial, but who are mono racial, as well. So in my own experience, you know, I've been told I'm not Asian enough, or I'm, like, my cousin was like, oh, you know, pointing to me and my sister saying, those are my white cousins. And that was pretty painful. Because in my everyday life, you know, in school, and now and professionally, I don't think anyone sees me as white. And I think it's a way of, you know, it's sort of derogatory, it reminds me of those terms. For minorities who that are like, you know, Oreo, banana, coconut, you know, and lanky. There's a lot of them. Yeah. So I think that sense of pushing the person out of the group because they aren't living up to a stereotype or certain ideas of what you should be like, certainly happens, probably multiracial people are more at risk of those having those experiences and a lot of contexts, but definitely, it happens for other individuals as well.

Shawna  34:25

Could you come back? I'm really curious about your cousins. Why would your cousin say those are my white cousins?

Jackie  34:32

I think it was because of our interest. This was I think, either in college or high school. My sister and I had creative interests. Were interested in musical theater and things like peripheral you know, kind of performing arts and singing, and choir inquire. And so it kind of I felt like it was going based on what we chose to spend our hobby time dealing or what our extracurricular interest swore, and how they were, I suppose, like, stereotypically mainstream.

Shawna  35:05

I get you. Do you? What do you think about the idea of this lack of collective identity than if you can get away with being white than you should be white? Yes,

Jackie  35:17

yes. And this Yeah, this has a lot to do. So in this, that recent project, it was studying Asian American perceivers. And it was the idea that, you know, Asian Americans perceivers, if you, you ask them to think about an Asian white person, they will generally assume that person looks more white fits in more with white people, identifies as white and is not an Asian person. And so there is a, an exclusionary tendency that we documented from Asian Americans thinking about Asian white biracial roles. And I think it does come down to the sense of, Well, you can probably pass as white, I think you're gonna, you know, just side with white people on political issues, social issues, and things like that. So you're not one of us.

Shawna  36:11

Yeah, wow. And I just find that really interesting, because it is the opposite of the hypo descent when it comes to black Americans. Or they tend to say, group, everyone, except for I guess, some really exceptions would be like, when I described when I was in school, and I couldn't socially fit in with a group. I

Jackie  36:34

wonder if it's like, you know, either if you are in some way ambiguous, whether it's because you're multiracial, or you know, you have interests that are stereotypically white or something, you have to communicate and signal that you are really one of the group. Otherwise, you're just kicked out,

Shawna  36:53

maybe. So the problem comes when you don't have enough of the code to signal it. Right, like I told a story,

Shawna  37:04

some episodes ago about coming back to the US. So my husband's in the military, we've we've been overseas a lot, a lot, a lot, 15 years, let's say, Oh, wow, in many different places. So I've had lots of experiences and different countries with different cultures, and even third culture, people who are expats and just kind of like me, you don't really fit in in one particular place, you know, that kind of thing. And I think in a way that kind of continued to shape my identity where I began to feel, I mean, I still I densify the way that I do, but it's like, I realized coming back to the US that even though I always say, I'm black, or I talk about that, or I have certain stories, or there's certain things in my culture that are part of black culture, let's say that I have lost touch with that, or that it wasn't as deeply rooted as I thought. So there was a time that I went out with a friend and the place that we went, I mean, it was pretty diverse. But the atmosphere, let's say was, it felt like a place that would, that would embody more of black culture than not, while I was welcomed there, there was no one there that made me feel out of place, nothing like that. And I had a great time, I was very keenly aware, there was like this thing in the back of my mind, like, I don't really fit here. And it had to do with things like, I didn't know all the music, or the lyrics to some songs, or people would talk about shows that I wasn't familiar with, or just didn't have interest in or other kinds of activities, or things that just wasn't part of me. Or I would talk about things that I do like or that I do participate in that. They'd be like, what

Shawna  38:58

I was just like, yeah, it kind of made me get a flashback. So I'm from Alaska, but much of my family is in Pennsylvania and Ohio and there was like it would fly back from Alaska to Pennsylvania, sometimes in the summer to visit old friends. And I remembered one summer having gone back to Alaska and then receiving a letter from one of the friends that I hadn't visited. And in this letter, she basically ripped me apart. Like, I can't believe you came back here. And like why are you so white now? And she was really all over me for how would I sit being less black? I don't know. Like she you because this is when like, be 50 Choose was big and presidents of the United States like music. Oh, I don't know what your age ranges Jackie. So I'm not sure like what music when I'm

Jackie  39:53

a child of the 90s Okay, so

Shawna  39:57

Well, I would say yeah, like it was in the 90s, the presidents of the United States and like that kind of music, Alanis Morissette was like, oh, like those are the kind of music that I was listening to kind of mainstream pop America music, right. And so I didn't realize how important radio stations were. And when I went back to Pittsburgh, I kept changing to those kind of top 40 stations, and I was enjoying the music singing along, but it was totally not, I guess what I listened to when I was growing up anyway, it was just not really being in the in group no matter where you are, and not knowing which signals to throw up to indicate whether or not you belong.

Jackie  40:40

Right. Right. Like you're saying, if if people perceive you to be identifying differently than they are, it can be perceived as a slight or as a rejection, or that you're perceived as you do you think you're better than us? Or can be threatening?

Shawna  40:58

Yeah, I've gotten that too. Oh, you think you think you're this? You think you're that? Yeah. Well, all of these, I guess, are riddles to be worked out? I certainly appreciate the work that you're doing with these studies and kind of exploring this and giving us things to think about, you know,

Jackie  41:18

well, thank you. I appreciate it. And I think this podcast is just so important for creating space to have these types of discussions. Thank you for that.

Jason  41:32

All right. So what do you think of the whole thing where Asian people who look at people have, say, mixed ancestry who are say, you know, Asian and Caucasian, and, you know, they look at them in terms of, you know, their, their their, I don't want to say less Asian, but that they're going to lean more so towards their Caucasian side?

Shawna  41:58

I mean, the way Jackie described it, they kind of do see them as less Asian, I think. Yeah, I think it's a certainly an interesting concept. Because I think when I know of somebody that is multi ethnic, or multiracial is different Heritage's. I do sort of wonder if one thing is more prevalent than another, but I think I think of it more in terms of their actual culture, not like just because of who they are, what their makeup is. So it's pretty interesting that they just automatically, the study kind of show that they just automatically lean more towards assuming that the Asian and white person is going to be more white. Why not? Are not Asian at all? Yeah, that's interesting.

Jason  42:48

Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of truth to that. I mean, from our experiences, too, I think personally, I've experienced that as well. You know, I think people assume more so that, you know, I may be considering myself more Caucasian or embracing a Caucasian side more so than my African American one. Yeah. It's just very interesting.

Shawna  43:11

Do you think because this whole idea was about perceivers? Right. So do you think it matters? who the person is? So do you think a white person would think that you're embracing whiteness? More than not? Or do you think it's a black person?

Jason  43:27

I think it's more of a black person thinking to be honest, like a person of color. Same

Shawna  43:31

with Asian. Yeah, I wonder that too. Because, you know, if you have a non white person, do they think that you're leaning more towards that? I don't know. And my experience? Yeah, I would say, it's usually the person of color, not just a person of color, your black people, let's say, will think that I'm embracing whiteness or something like that. In fact, we've talked about it a few times, almost in an accusatory way, sometimes. Not always. Not everybody's like that. But when in this particular context, yeah, might say, but I don't think anybody that I know that's white looks at me and says, Oh, yeah, she's pretty much white. You know, not that way. And it was certainly a really interesting interview. Oh, yeah. Lots of stuff to think about. So. Well, that's it for the show. This week. We're so glad that you joined us and hope that these were some thought provoking ideas for you too. And if you have other things that you'd like to talk about, or questions you have, please reach out to me remember, you can find me at True Colors. cast.com or Facebook. Yeah, just reach out find me. And in the meantime, you guys, please be safe out there. Make sure that you share a smile and find an opportunity to make someone feel welcome. Love you. I'll talk to you soon.

Intro  44:59

Schelotto time lotto