Reshaping an Identity with Guest Carmen Watson

In this episode I chat with my guest, Carmen Watson, about her journey of self-identity.  Carmen is Chinese and white and grew up just about all over Canada, in places like British Columbia (BC), Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario, Quebec, and the Northwest Territories. She moved back to British Columbia in 2014, to start university in Vancouver. She holds a BA in History (Honors) and International Relations from the University of British Columbia, with a focus on decolonization (see her recommended reading list below).

It wasn't until she was attending university that she actually accepted that she was a person of color. It really struck her in the second or third year of "uni" that she actually fit in with the themes she was looking at in her classes about decolonization; she could finally put words/themes/social concepts to the feelings she'd had her whole life. She found it to be a benefit that she was living in a city with one of the largest Chinese-Canadian populations, and a part of that includes a large number of people who are mixed, just like her.

She always knew that she didn't quite fit in with the 'white' kids, but I never really saw herself as someone whose experiences were in fact shaped/impacted/driven by the intersections of gender, race and class. You can't miss this episode as Carmen and I discuss this journey!

Check out some of Carmen's reading recommendations if you are interested in decolonization. Both are scholars/writers/artists and really detail the lived experiences of Indigenous women :

Leanne Simpson's Dancing On Our Turtle's Back
Lee Maracle's I am Woman 

If this is your first time with OTC, check out EPISODE 1: START HERE for more background on the show. Continue the conversation on Instagram and find Season 5 episodes on YouTube.

Our True Colors is powered by True Culture Coaching & Consulting. Head to our website to find out how True Culture Coaching and Consulting can support you and your organization, and subscribe to our LinkedIn Newsletter, The Culture Clinic, for more great content. You can find us at truecultureconsulting.com where you can also contact us to schedule a free consultation.

Transcript

Announcer  0:06  
 Welcome to Our True Colors, hosted by Shawna Gann. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial riddle, an ethnic enigma and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.

Shawna  0:23  
Hey, friends, welcome to another episode of OTC. So glad to have you, as always. My guest this week on our True Colors is Carmen Watson. Carmen grew up just about all over Canada in places like British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario, Quebec and the Northwest Territories. She moved back to British Columbia in 2014 to go to university in Vancouver. She holds her bachelor's degree in history and International Relations from UBC, with a focus on decolonization. This focus on decolonization is interesting because it played a part in the forming of her self identity or the reforming is that maybe that's a better way to say that, because it wasn't until university that she actually accepted herself as a person of color. This is interesting, because she chose a major that kind of forced her to look at race in a very different way, and what that meant for her. So hang out with us as we talk about her journey and what that meant for her self identity. Enjoy. 

Shawna  1:21  
Well, hi, Carmen, how are you doing?

Carmen  1:23  
Good. How are you?

Shawna  1:24  
I'm doing pretty good. Well, thank you for coming on the show. I'm so excited for you to share your story. 

Carmen  1:30  
Thank you. I'm so excited to get to talk with you and get to talk about this and stuff like that. So it's exciting for me.

Shawna  1:37  
Yeah, well, for our listeners, could you describe yourself a little bit?

Carmen  1:41  
Yeah, for sure. So I'm Carmen Watson. I'm 24 I live in Vancouver, BC, Canada. Was born and raised in Canada, but I am part Chinese, and so it's kind of interesting to get to be on the show, because one of my parents is white and one of my parents is mixed too. So it's kind of interesting to get to hear about other people and then get to be on a show like this, where the whole kind of premise is just, what's my life like? Like? What is it like being the way that I am in a world that maybe isn't set to be defaulted to people who look like me. So it's, it's pretty cool.

Shawna  2:19  
Yeah, you and I got to speak a little bit before our time today with this interview. One of the things that you mentioned is that you have grown up all over the place in Canada. What was that like for you? Were there any experiences or any specific locations that stood out to you for any reason?

Carmen  2:40  
Yeah, so I Canada is a really big country, so I've lived way up north in what they call the Northwest Territories. I've lived as far west as British Columbia, which is where I live now. I've lived as far east as Quebec, which is for a lot of people who maybe aren't so familiar with Canada, it's the really French speaking part of Canada. And then I've lived in the middle too. I've lived on the prairies, but I think living in the city I live in now, I live in Vancouver, this has probably been the most interesting in terms of my identity. I think I'm one of those people who gets a lot of sometimes insensitive, sometimes just genuinely curious questions about, you know, like, Oh, can't really make out who you are. Or I really don't like it when people say what you are, but it's Vancouver has been a city where I really haven't actually had that question come up at all. I think in part, because of how different the demographics are here, whereas in other cities, especially in smaller cities, it that was a question that that came up a lot, and it was, it was interesting to finally move here as an 18 year old, because before this, I kind of lived all over and then I came here for uni, for college, I Guess, as people say the States.

Shawna  4:02  
I happent to know "uni" because I lived in Europe for so long, and they all say that, too.

Carmen  4:05  
Oh! yeah, there you go. I always have to figure out who's listening and if they'll recognize college or uni. But yeah, no, it's I moved here for school, and it was, it was an interesting time. So it was like, my first time on my first time on my own was my first time not really having my parents helped me navigate some commentary that, you know, I'd been able to run to them with when I was younger, but I it was a pretty liberating experience moving here and being in this, this city specifically. Yeah,

Shawna  4:39  
Would you say that Vancouver is more diverse than the other cities, or is it just the particular makeup of the demographics there that makes it different for you?

Carmen  4:49  
I think it's a combination of both. I think, like, I'm, I was a history major, so I love history, but there's, I think there's different. Demographics depending on which big city you're in. Like, most people who, even if they're not from Canada, but are somewhat familiar with Canada, they'll know Toronto, they'll know Vancouver, and they'll usually know Montreal, and, like, those are our biggest cities. But even then, like, there's very different demographics. And I think a part goes back to, like, different periods of immigration to Canada. But in Vancouver, there's a really large Chinese population, Chinese Canadian population, and that kind of goes back to when Canada was settled. There was a really big push for laborers from China to kind of finish off the railroad here. And then people stayed, and people continued to immigrate specifically to Vancouver, in a place on Vancouver Island called Victoria, because of the communities that already been set up. And so I think because of that, like this is a city in which I feel like there's a lot of people who look like me, and then there's a lot of people who don't look like me too. So there is a lot of diversity, I think, in that I can identify with a large group of people who live here, and there's also people who don't look like me, but this is a place for them as well.

Shawna  6:10  
I see, well, that's really interesting. So I grew up in Anchorage, Alaska. Oh, wow, that's so cool. It was a wonderful place to grow up, you know? And it was very diverse. It still is a lot of that, I think, has to do with, of course, the native population is there. But then there's a big military presence. People, I think, have had their tours up there and liked it and stayed or returned. Then there's, of course, the oil industry that draws a lot of people, well, different reasons, but it is. It is very diverse. In fact, my husband, he's military, and we met there. And after we got married, and it was time for him to move on to his next tour, we drove from Anchorage down to not to St Louis, but that would be the it took us nine days, and we passed to British Columbia. We just kind of moseyed our way. And we, of course, spent two days at Edmonton Mall. 

Carmen  7:05  
Oh yeah.

Shawna  7:06  
That was the thing to do, at least. Then I don't even think we went out of doors. It was just that mall is so huge and amazing. And then, yeah, British Columbia is gorgeous too. Like, it makes me think so much of Alaska, but not Anchorage like before the city grew, you know? It's gorgeous. 

Carmen  7:27  
It's interesting, because there's lots of, like, there's a good number of cities in BC where, like, it's, it's so far outside of what you'd expect to be in BC, because I think people are really familiar with Vancouver, like, it's not that different from Seattle, I guess, for a lot of Americans. But then you get here and there's places like Vancouver Island, you know, there's Victoria Tofino. Tofino a big, big spot people go to surf. But it's like, there's all these different pockets of British Columbia that there's so many amazing things about the province itself, that's really cool. Yeah, well,

Shawna  8:04  
I'm glad that you got to have your uni experience there. Me too.

Shawna  8:09  
Let's go back a little bit to when you were younger, though, since you mentioned that your experience in Vancouver has been probably the most I don't know if rewarding is the right word. But in terms of talking about diversity or your sense of belonging, you said it's the place for you. And for a lot of people, what was it like growing up when you were younger in other places? What were your social experiences like?

Carmen  8:35  
It's it's interesting, like there, I think, depending on where we've lived, and this is where being kind of sometimes racially ambiguous is an interesting thing. When I lived on the prairies, I think a lot of people thought that I was Cree so that I was indigenous. So some of the experience I had, experiences that I had that were tinged with racism. You know, it would be like racism directed towards a group that I wasn't a part of, but that people assumed I was a part of. And not all my experiences, obviously, are kind of tinged with racism, but it was always kind of a little bit different, because in most places that I went or that I lived, I didn't have anyone that looked like me like I have a brother who's a year younger than me, and he's, you know, we we look like our parents, but there's different features I think that kind of stand out and that now I'm grateful for looking the way that I am, but as a kid like I looked a lot more Chinese than my brother did, and it was upsetting at times for me, because I would, you know, be on the receiving end of some what I would now Call racist back then, that I called, you know, mean. And it was, it was different, because I don't think that people knew to be racist towards my brother, and I would never, you know I'm his older sister, like, I would never, ever have wanted anyone to hurt him like that. But it was so weird to me, like I was like, he's also, you know, like, if we're going to talk. Talk about being a quarter whatever, like he's just as much that as I am. But it doesn't, you know, people just don't pick up on it.

Shawna  10:08  
Your phenotypical features were stronger, yeah, Chinese heritage and so that kind of stood out when people come Yeah, two of you. Wow. So what were some of those experiences? What were what did you What did people say or do?

Carmen  10:24  
Well, I think it's interesting, like, I think first I want to say I had countless experiences in life that were amazing. And there's a, you know, this, this collection of experiences that weren't and the typical, I think racist behavior that I got as a kid was people kind of singing songs in fake Chinese at me, or kind of like yelling at me in fake Chinese, you know, like, I've been called the Chinese C word, and I it's funny. I didn't go to school in English until university. I went to school only in French, and so it was like the French language version of that slur. And so I got that, you know, I got a lot of like, why don't you just go home and it was funny, because it's like, I not funny comedic, but it's like, well, it's strange. And a part of me would always kind of be like, Well, I'm from Victoria BC, because that's where I was born, you know, I would kind of like try and let it slide off with a little bit of humor when I was younger. But there were experiences where, like, I didn't know that I was part of the group that they were making fun of. And I would go back to my mom, who's white, and say, these kids were doing this, I don't understand. And she was like, well, that's racist. They were making fun of you. And I think, like, what a difficult experience for a parent to have to explain to their child that their child's been on the receiving end of racism, because there were times where I remember, I was in kindergarten, and my one of our student aides, she wasn't my teacher, but she worked with our class. She showed up for Halloween in this like, really cheap, fake Chinese dress, like it was a costume. And, you know, she had drawn slanted eyes on herself and put chopsticks in her hair, and then, you know, like, said she was a geisha, but, like, it was just so many levels of offenses, but I was so young that I didn't understand, like, it's funny, I knew something was off, like, there was that internal feeling of like, I don't like this. This seems wrong, but I didn't know. I didn't have the language, I didn't have the kind of tools to identify what she was doing. And my mom was like, That's racist. What you're doing is racist. And they were really kind of, oh, like, it's just a joke. But I think that's probably one of my first memories of my experience with racism, and it was it was interesting, because I didn't know that it was racist. I knew that it wasn't okay, but I didn't know that I was directly part of the group that she was kind of making fun of, until my mom told me,

Shawna  13:01  
so did you not see yourself as a being a person with Chinese heritage?

Carmen  13:06  
I knew that I was part Chinese, but I didn't know that. Like, that still meant I was Chinese, if that makes any sense. Like, objectively, I knew, Okay, you know, we're part Chinese, like, even though we have a Scottish last name, you know, my dad was adopted and one of his parents was Chinese. Like, I knew that, but I didn't know. Like, I couldn't make the connection, for some reason between that and then I'm actually Chinese. Got it, you know? I think because it was, like, this feeling of, well, I don't know, like, I It's interesting now and like thinking about this as I'm answering, but I don't think I ever really, like, stepped fully into accepting that I was mixed until late in my teen years. I think before that, I would just be like, but I'm mostly white. You know, when someone would ask me what I was, I never really fully was like, Yeah, I'm Chinese. I don't really have any ownership of it. I think it was just something I felt like, like, landed in my lap, and it was just this game of hot potato with my identity. Well, it sounds like

Shawna  14:13  
you did have some understanding of it in terms of being multiracial, because you said I'm mostly white, so that would indicate that you, yeah, right, but you're, it sounds like you were kind of leaning more heavily on that mostly white part. So any of those comments or things directed at you would be odd. And plus, I mean, if you're a child, it's, it's kind of difficult, I think, to reconcile what's happening,

Carmen  14:41  
yeah, what, yeah, what, yeah. I was like, I don't I what, wow, you know, but it's interesting my mom, too. My mom, her first language is English. My first language is French. And so when I started kindergarten, which is when this like incident happened. We lived in a province, and I went to a school that was French only, like we lived in Quebec, and my mom, she speaks French, but it's, it's like, it's very different level, um, than me or my daughter, my brother and she was, like, going in, you know, guns blazing, in her broken French, to be like, you're not doing this to my kid. I don't care if this embarrasses me, if this embarrasses you, as in the teacher, like we're having this conversation, and I'm like, that's that's a strong mom. She's like, I'm not just gonna pretend this is okay, but

Shawna  15:34  
yeah, and it's not. I mean, it's not always easy to to confront people, especially if you know when it's really direct, and you can, if you can clearly point out what the offense is. That's one thing, but when they are microaggressions and it's just these little slights, or if people truly don't understand, like I was listening to you talk about the costume, and it made me think about, I heard a story about, well, there's more, like, there's a lot of stories about this, but I heard on a show this discussion about Native American dress as Halloween costume. Oh, yeah, right, that's much the same. And I think about it, like, how could you dress up as an American? We don't really have, and I don't know if this is true for Canada, but I feel like we don't really have a national dress. We don't have any kind of national garb. So my daughter, when we we lived overseas a lot, and most recently, we were in the Czech Republic, and she went to an international school there, and they would have, like, international days, where people would bring in their national dishes, or a dish that was representative of where, you know, their country or people would wear the clothes. And I was like, in America, I guess the closest you can get to national dress is like, jeans and a T shirt and a cowboy hat, right? Because that's what people think meddling the Wild West and, yeah, and this, but we don't have any national dress. There's no, you know kimono like in Japan, or, you know, anything that. And so when I think about this person at your school dressing in a poor version of Chinese, and then not a kimono, but saying she's a geisha, with all, you know, all of that, like, Okay, first of all, let's get your culture straight. Yeah, right, right. If you're gonna do this, let's have a lesson. Let's talk about this. Yeah,

Carmen  17:26  
exactly, you're gonna insult me. At least be accurate,

Shawna  17:31  
right, right, exactly, at least know what you're talking about. But like, yeah, to me, when you said, she drew her eyes to be slated. To me that sounds as offensive as blackface,

Carmen  17:43  
like it's so offensive. And I think one of the most dehumanizing experiences, and I'm like, speaking for myself here, is trying to explain to someone how that's offensive. I remember in, I think it was grade four, this girl was singing, if you know, in fake Chinese, and doing this, I can't remember the rhyme, or some rhymes that she made up to go in English. And doing these, she would pull her eyes back, pull them up, pull them down, like slanting them, and she would sing this fake song. And I was like, That's so mean. And I was crying. I was like, You can't do this to me. She's like, I don't understand what's offensive, you know? And it's like, are you joking? And I, if I think there's different levels of that with every age group, I think it's, I think, you know, people say, Oh, kids are mean, but like, she's she's seen some kind of othering somewhere, like she's picked up on the ability to make what she thinks is like a form of entertainment. And as a child, I don't fault her like I think that was a learning experience for her, but she's picked up on the ability to other from somewhere and to kind of rally people around the power of othering. So

Shawna  18:52  
I've begun to think about this a little bit because part of my studies include categorization, self categorization, and categorization by others, and it's a very natural thing for people to to want to sort out things and people, because that's what our brains do. That's how we make sense of the world and develop our schemas. You know, this is a vegetable, because this is what I know about vegetables, you know, or whatever, yeah, but we do that with people too, and we think about babies being born with a clean slate. And so we say prejudice is taught, racism is taught, if a baby never was exposed to hate talk or things that are discriminatory, things like that, like would they still feel that way? But then I wonder if, just because our brains are wired to recognize differences and similarities in order to do that categorization, if there would still be this sense of othering. But I think the difference would be. That it wouldn't be offensive, it would just be a recognition that people are different, and that's why I have beef with the idea or the concept of colorblindness. People will say, I'm color blind, yeah, like, Nah, you're not. I mean, you do see the differences. It's not about whether or not you notice how people are different or how they're the same. It's about what you do with that knowledge, or what you do with those observations. So I

Carmen  20:26  
think colorblindness, like, it's such a, you know, like, there's a lot of rhetoric that I would use in writing when I was in school, and it just seems like it's such an oppressive thing to say. Like, it's such it's like a tool of the oppressor. It's like, I don't, see color, therefore there are no problems. It's like, it's such a way to take any level ground away. You know, for someone to say, like, I people with my ethnic background are under hired or under accepted at universities, or we are policed more severely than other groups. You know, we face racist arts. For someone to say, I don't see color, it's like, well, you're kind of refusing to acknowledge that people are telling you that there are experiences that come with that, like, that's not, it's not a, I just think it's such a it's such a naive and oppressive way to kind of slap people in the face.

Shawna  21:15  
100% I super agree. I read in this book recently, this one sentence has just stuck with me so much. You know, we would say that it's you could chalk it up to ignorance. You know, some people are just ignorant, and do we blame them? But in this book, they said, you know, the root of ignorance is ignore. So is it about naivete, or is it truly ignoring this? Yeah, like closing your eyes to it, that was like, Whoa. That's really an interesting concept. So with all of these experiences, do you think that that played a part in how you identified as a child versus now, like you said you kind of leaned more towards being mostly white. Were there any feelings associated with that?

Carmen  22:07  
I think I definitely felt shame at times. Like it was such a horrid feeling in the pit of my stomach when someone would start to say something racist, and I think like there's such a spectrum of racist words and racist acts. And I don't think people need to be hurling a slur at you for it to be a really grotesque form of racism. You know, like, the whole like, go home kind of rhetoric, or, like, I remember people being like, my family, like they've worked harder, blah, blah, blah, and it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, I'm not even gonna get into this. I think it's like, what are you trying to say? Like, are you trying to say that I don't deserve a spot in this country? Like, what does it mean to you, but I'm here? Is it upsetting? Is it, you know, but I don't know. Like, I think I felt a lot of shame, and I think I felt a lot of discomfort. It was, I remember I was always really, really good in math. I was always really good in physics. I did like advanced physics in high school. Thank you. And I loved it. And I remember someone saying, you know, and I was like, I had to study so hard. I remember, like, it wasn't just easy. It was like, I really, like, I would do my work, do my homework. And I remember saying, oh, like, I'm on the honor roll for math or physics, and someone's like, oh, well, it's because you're Chinese. And that's when I would, like, default into that, well, I'm mostly white, you know, I think, like, as a self protective thing to try and emphasize my worth. But it's like, this dangerous game of kind of going by the category someone else's trying to associate stereotypes with like, as in, like, oh, like, you're so good at math because you're Chinese. And I'm like, No, I'm good at math because I worked hard. And I think I would use that as a bit of a shield. Like, I could default into whiteness. And I think maybe this is like a little bit of white privilege, but I could default into whiteness to try and protect myself when I felt like someone was coming after my, my Chineseness, you know, if that's a term, yeah, but like, it's or if someone would, you know, make a I remember people just being like, Well, do you eat dog? And I was like, no, like, I'm white. Like, I don't That's weird. Like, why would you ask me that? And just like these kind of things, where I think it was, I could try and escape the full impact of the racism by using my whiteness.

Shawna  24:35  
But yeah, did it impact kind of how you saw your future at all, or, yeah, a way to sort of shield yourself further from this

Carmen  24:47  
100% like I remember just being so I look back on it with such, like sadness, and I just wish I could give myself a hug. And I remember, like, thinking to myself, I'm never gonna marry a. Chinese man, because I don't want my children to be called, you know, the Chinese C word. I remember one boy pinned me against a fence, and then the other threw my stuff over the fence while yelling slurs at me. And I was just, I never wanted my children, you know, my future babies, to go through anything racist and like a self protective thing and like a protective thing for the kids that I didn't even have was I, I don't want you to be too much like me, that people do this to you. Wow. What a sad thing you know, for a kid to feel but I think that that tells you something of like how racism and ignorance makes humans feel like it's, it's so deep that we're willing to think it's generation ahead of like, how is this going to impact my kids? To

Shawna  25:46  
me, it strikes me like same thing when I think about beauty standards, that Western ideal of beauty, you know, so is it better for me to try to change myself, to be more like that, just to escape oppression, you know, and rather than embracing the attributes that you have, even if they are, quote, ethnic to others, it makes me think of like, what's the default image in a person's head when they think of an American or, you know, a Canadian or something like that, is what's that person look like? You know, what's their skin tone? It's

Carmen  26:25  
interesting, like you see it in so much like you see it in book covers. I remember people losing their minds when the actress who was cast as Hermione Granger in that Harry Potter and the Cursed Child play in London, she's black, and people like, lost it, and they're like, she's never referred to as black in the books. And it's like, she's never referred to as white either. We just assume that this is, you know, that, like, the ideal is gonna be, she's gonna be white. It's like, what on earth is this crap? Like, yeah, it's, it's ridiculous. Like, I remember where was. I used to work in beauty, and one of the training seminars was like, know your clientele, and it just became this wildly racist moment. And I'm I this is where it's like, it's so bizarre being mixed like people will be like, you're white, you're white, you're white, and then, you know, in the moment where it suits them. They're like, you're not white. The the trainer, it was for this really expensive kincare brand. She like points at me. She's like, your people, your people love skin lightening cream. And I was like, My people, like, My people are Canadian, like, I have so many different flags that go with my family tree. Who are you talking about? Like, are you talking about, you know, the Scottish are you talking about the the Irish the poles? Like, are you talking about people from Palestine? Are you talking about the Metis National Council? Like, nope. We mean, we mean Chinese. And I just, I remember being like, well, uh, thanks, but I won't be doing that. And I think that's a little awkward. And she was really set. But, like, just like, why are you what are you doing? What a weird standard to think we're all going to adhere to. You know,

Shawna  28:10  
well, in situations like those, do you ever educate is it hard to do that now that you're older? And I mean, we'll talk about it a little more in a bit. But what's it like for you now? Are you able to sort of defend yourself, your heritage, and also say, like, let's, let's have a little school.

Carmen  28:33  
Yeah, like, I think it there's now that I'm older and I think I'm a little bit more, well, I'm a much more confident person my identity, I have a lot more confidence when it comes to educating people, but I think there's like, this psychological rundown of how the other person is feeling like, if they're actually feeling like listening, then I'm okay spending my energy and the emotional labor being like what you just said is hurtful for these reasons, you know, but I think it really depends on the setting, because I think if the person is the intent is to minimize, or it's to be aggressive, or these different things, and I'm not going to because I just feel like it's like the emotional labor I'm going to spend on This act is not going to actually change anyone's life. You know, they're not going to be 10 times Kinder the next person they see if I get in on this debate with them. Now, it really depends on my mood. Like, sometimes I'll be like, real feisty. Sometimes I'll say, you know, that's actually that's not true, and then people are shocked, and then you can, like, kind of have an actual conversation with them. And I have time for people who genuinely want to hear about why what they just said or did is offensive. I don't have time for people who are going to do it again just as a show of, well, you can't censor me. Yeah, you know. But yeah, I think now that I'm a little bit older, I have a lot more confidence. And I think just like I feel like I actually deserve to be offended, you know, like, I think it's like righteous anger, like I'm not like, oh well, you're mostly white, so don't be mad. It's like, what you just said is directed at me, whether you intended it to be directed at me or not, yeah.

Shawna  30:23  
I think the next level too is to be able to speak to it, even if it isn't something directed at oneself, you know, like sort of Oh yeah, as the bystander is not the right word, but just in being an advocate or an ally for someone else, you know, yeah, even so, because I've heard stories from people who people will say offensive things, not even knowing that the person that they're with, you know, is, oh yeah, you know, oh yeah, like, because we didn't mean you Right, right, that sort of you're special, not your special. But you know, you know, the other people that are like that, or whatever just or even if they just will, I don't know, just say something without thinking anyway, and it kind of puts you in this position. But I think it makes sense what you said to sort of gage the energy at the moment, gage the receptiveness of the person.

Carmen  31:20  
And I think there's a piece to it too, where it's it's, I don't know why. I don't know if it's like this for other people, but for me, it's a lot easier to be like angry or engage in a conversation with someone else if the comments been made about another group like I think sometimes my fear is that I'm going to be met with an extra level of racism or anger or othering, if it's if I'm the group that the issue, the word or the action or whatever, is being directed towards. But I think, you know, I I have no problem being really like, Okay, what you just said is really offensive right off the bat, if the group isn't my group, you know, but I think there's just, like, you just don't want to make yourself even more of a victim, right? You want that level of protection a

Shawna  32:12  
little bit. Yeah? No, that makes sense, and it's natural, I think so. I wanted to take us back to your uni experience. You know you had a very interesting major. Yeah,

Carmen  32:26  
I double majored. I did honors history, and then international relations, and I did the common thread throughout the two was decolonization, and so I looked at decolonization on an international level, and then how that affected civil security, like state security, and then I looked at how decolonization is happening in the Canadian context, and somewhat in the American context, but mostly in the Canadian context. And so in the Canadian context, I really focused on specifically First Nations, but also just indigenous as well, so like Inuit and Metis as well, but really I wrote my thesis on, it's called unsettling kin. It was how indigenous women, specifically First Nations women led the fight for recognition of child welfare as a really serious issue within indigenous communities. So yeah.

Shawna  33:31  
Title again,

Carmen  33:33  
I called it unsettling kin.

Shawna  33:36  
Like, like, k i n, yeah, like,

Carmen  33:39  
family. So the bonds that exist within family and how that can kind of be transferred over to the concept of nationhood. So it was like, I'm still really proud of it, even though, two years ago, it's a lot

Shawna  33:56  
of work, and it looks like you. You know, finding those connections is is really fascinating. How, how would you say that your experience with your studies affected you in terms of your identity, specifically your ethnic identity?

Carmen  34:13  
It was really interesting, like I started reading, it was probably in about second or third year, because that's when they make you start putting together, like a body of literature for what you want to study and stuff for your thesis. And like, I kind of fell into these works on indigenous feminism, and so it's like all these past and present authors who are also like poets and artists, and it's these indigenous women who are talking about their experiences at the intersections of race, gender and class, too. And I started to kind of look at the work differently, because I had always known that there. Was like a racialized and gendered experience for Indigenous women in Canada. But it was interesting to read some of this rhetoric and start to identify what I had been feeling and what I had experienced within some of these concepts, like the whole concept of othering. I had no idea what that was until second year, I think, and it's just, it's one word, but it there's such an umbrella of experiences that are kept within that word, you know. And so I started reading things like, you know, like racialized violence, implicit and explicit racism, like things where it's now, it's just, it's easy to understand for me. But I was reading and reading about these experiences, and I was like, Oh my God. Like, there's so much here. There's a lot that I can not at all to compare my experience to those Indigenous women in Canada, but reading the terminology like it just started to click. Like, I was like, oh, you know, like someone showing up at Halloween in a costume that is based on my ancestors, like, that's offensive, that's, you know, institutional violence, things like that. Like, there's, there was all these things that started clicking. And it was, it was a turning point. Like, it was a really, really big turning point for me, and that's when I started, I think, to realize that I fit the category of a woman of color. I was like, Oh my God. Like, I'm like, It's okay for me to be like, I don't owe you an explanation for who I am, but this is how I identify. I was thinking about it this morning. I think actually, the first time anyone ever referred to me as a woman of color was, like, in grade nine. It was my social studies teacher, and I had totally forgotten about this, and he said, because we were writing up this, like, who I am, kind of blurb. And he was like, oh, maybe you'll put like, I'm a woman of color. And I was like, color. And I was like, woman of color, I'm not a woman of color. You're wrong. Mr Armando, that's not correct. But I was thinking about that today, and I just I rejected it so hard when it was put in front of me at a time where I didn't really feel confident in who I was. And then, you know, here I am in university, being like, well, this is, this is who I am. Like, this is, this is me.

Shawna  37:28  
So what does that mean to you now? What does that mean to you now, being a woman of color,

Carmen  37:34  
I think, like, the biggest thing is that I really do not feel it's such a little thing. But I do not feel like I have to click Caucasian on all these forms or select it if it's like a handwritten form. I think a big part of it is realizing that I'm not going to look or feel like or necessarily be represented in the things I see around me every day. And I think like when I accepted that there was a lot less tension inside, like I wasn't, like, trying so bad to make myself look like, you know, the cover of Mary Claire that we have in Canada, or, you know, Vogue, or all these things, because it's like, I'm just, I am mixed. It's awesome to be a woman of color, and know that I'm confident in that now, but I think I shed like, this layer of of awkwardness and discomfort, and being like, This is who I am. I'm unapologetic about it, and it's, it's kind of like coming into your own, like you, you gain this power and being like, I don't need to fit the models that people who aren't me have created. It's just not gonna it's not gonna work for me. And I'm I feel good about it. I

Shawna  38:49  
mean, that's awesome. It feels to me like there was this inner battle for you, like you knew that you were multiracial, of course, but you kind of leaned on the whiteness, you know, you said a little earlier, maybe some privilege there, kind of exercising that in a way, to sort of cope with the microaggressions, or the not so micro aggressions that you experienced, I don't know, was the hardest part for you trying to reconcile who you are with what you thought was expected of you in society, or was there something else that you've discovered that was really the hardest part to overcome?

Carmen  39:37  
I think like that, first bit is interesting, and I really think about that a lot, but like, not fitting what was expected of me. But I think one thing I've always felt is, like this resentment of stereotypes. And there's so many stereotypes out there about Asian women, like it's It's wild. And I, I struggle sometimes in like, I'm a very, I'm a feisty person, you know, like, I'm, I swear, a lot more than I should. Like, I'm loud. If I feel like someone is being rude to someone else in a store, I'll say something I don't know. Like, I'm a little bit more confrontational, I think, than most people, but not in an aggressive way. Like I just, I'm definitely going to give you my opinion. And I think there's a lot of stereotypes out there about Chinese women especially, and like, I always felt like I was pushing up against that. Like I'm I always felt like it's like, I don't care what you expect me to be. Like, I sure as heck I'm not gonna be quiet, I'm not gonna be whatever. And it I hate that I even have to say this, but it's like those stereotypes aren't true. Like, Chinese women are not, you know, we're not quiet, we're not docile, we're not like, hyper sexualized, like all these things, like, I will speak for myself, but like, I'm a loud person, you know? Like, I don't need other people to tell me what I should be in order to be, like, authentically Chinese or an authentic Chinese woman. But I like, I'm a very stubborn person, like, I always want to push back against that. So there's a number of experiences. Like, I remember and I wrote about this for a paper, like, one partner making a comment about, like, oh, like, that's, you know, that's not what Asian women do in porn. And I remember just being like, but that's so offensive. Like, you can't, you can't do that. And I, I wrote that in an essay, and the TA was like, I don't watch porn, so I don't understand your reference to, you know, Asian women being hyper sexualized. And I was like, okay, but like, this is, like, a don't

Shawna  41:45  
drop too much porn to know that that's, yeah, yeah.

Carmen  41:49  
It was just like, that kind of thing where I'm like, I'm not even getting into it with you. Like, this is just so offensive. But like, Yeah, I think now I'm a lot more confident in knowing that your stereotype about me or about like my ancestors or about whatever, like, I'm not even getting into it, like, it's just, I remember always fighting them as kids, like, as a kid, I would say, like, people would be like, do we dog? And I remember just crying. I was like, I don't eat dog. Like, I have a dog, you know. Or like, Do you only eat with chopsticks at home? My mom is white. Like, do you think she served me my like, steak and potatoes with chopsticks? Like, we're not. We don't fit the fake idea that you have of us. But now I'm just like, Aha, yeah, that's a weird thing to think, and it's not true, you know, but I don't, I don't feel like I have to fight it as much, like I'm just like, hashtag wrong, you know, like, not like crying to myself because it's so offensive. But, you know, I

Shawna  42:54  
have to tell you something. Carmen, I am so impressed because you're, you're young, and there's a lot of people my age, older, who are still wrestling with their identities and accepting who they are and embracing who they are. I mean, so I say props, thanks. I think, I mean, that's, it's a big deal honestly. You know, that's one of the reasons I have the show. It's tough when you don't fit into one place, and then if you do, but it's not what is the social ideal? You know, unfortunately, it makes it tough, and then you have some wrestling within like, do I lean more into who I am, or do I try to run away from that to escape the persecution, yeah? And, you know, I just say, like, wow, I'm just, I just think it's awesome that you know who you are and you've embraced it, and you're like, Man, I got time for you, yeah, figure it out. Like, it's ridiculous. So tweet me later. I don't have time, right? Honestly, I've gotten some times where I'm like, you just need you some research. I don't have time look it up. Like, yeah, you know, but then a person has to be willing to actually take that step and figure it out. But wow. I mean, your story is just amazing. I love that you really took the time to look inwardly and kind of reflect on who you were as you were growing up, and really examine your turning point, your experiences you began to redefine your identity. So thanks. So really awesome. Well, to my listeners, this is not the end of Carmen's story. Hang in there, because next time we are going to speak with Carmen and a former guest on the show who happens to be her cousin, about their really exciting discovery and what it's meant for their family. So come back and listen. The rest of the story. Thank you, Carmen, so much. So appreciate it. Thank you. I think it was really great talking with Carmen, and I really loved her story, especially the idea that she completely learned about herself, and changed her views of herself and how she identified, not going, you know, not seeing herself as a person of color at all, and then totally embracing her Chinese heritage. It's pretty amazing, yeah. I

Announcer  45:33  
mean, I think that's hopeful for a lot of people, just in general, just, you know, not even directly relating to this, just in general, of seeing the truth and or not even seeing the truth, just being able to change your perspective, you know?

Shawna  45:46  
Yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, I think self identity development is no easy thing, so when you're when you're faced with it, and you're like, trying to figure out who you are and what that means for you, so it's a pretty big deal. What's really cool about Carmen and her story is this next episode. So everybody stay tuned, because the next episode that comes out is really going to be continuation. There was a story a few episodes before from a guest, Rebecca Goddard, and she talked about her experience being Chinese and white, and what that meant for her, and her discovery of another part of her family, another family member, that there is this really amazing reunion. This next episode coming out is the story of these two cousins and them coming together. So

Announcer  46:44  
sounds a wee bit familiar,

Shawna  46:46  
yeah, little bit,

Announcer  46:49  
little bit. I remember a time when, you know, I didn't know I had siblings, other siblings, you know. And,

Shawna  46:58  
yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly that could be why their story touched me so much too. Actually. I mean, I just really became invested in this family, and I'm like, I love their story,

Announcer  47:10  
so let's get the feels together. Yes,

Shawna  47:13  
guys, come back. You got to come back next week to get the rest of the story with Carmen Watson and her cousin Rebecca Goddard. In the meantime, you know what to do. Be safe out there. Please share a smile with someone. I don't think people really realize how far a smile goes. So share a smile with someone and find an opportunity to make someone feel welcome love. You all talk to you soon. You

Transcribed by https://otter.ai