Unpacking Racial Trauma with Guest Therese Kempf

This week my guest is Therese Kempf, who is a therapist in NYC. She specializes in working with trauma and couples, and has a unique focus in working with Racism as Trauma. Therese is also a body based therapist (Sensorimotor Psychotherapy) and helps her clients see the body as a main source of information as well as a primary channel for healing. She has also been featured in a short film called The Devolution of Love, where she is a couples therapist discussing the nuances of dating in the Tinder culture today. She was also in the Netflix film She Did That!, a film about black entrepreneurial women.

In this episode she and I discuss the different ways that racism can impact us and cause trauma - even when not directly. I invite you to this conversation as well as the discussion that follows with my co-host, Carmen. Below you can find more information on some of the topics discussed in the follow up discussion.

Want to know more about Therese and what she does? Check out her IG accounts here and here for more.

Racial Disparities in Health Care

• Centers for Disease Control
• Association for American Medical Colleges
• American Bar Association
• New York Times

Joyce Echaquan 

• BBC
• Time

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Transcript

Hey, Carmen

how's October treating you thus far?

00:25

so far? It's so good. I'm back on that loop train. As you may know, two days ago, I made this turkey noodle gluten free noodles, turkey with a little bit of lemon and like herbs for loss. It was just really good soup. I mean, my mom, and she froze them. So she can have it throughout the year. Yeah. Yeah, sounds

S:  00:42

really good. I always think like anything poultry, and lemon is just fantastic. It's so good. I

00:48

added a bunch of garlic to because I just think garlic is so good in terms of I think it's anti microbial or something. And it's also anti inflammatory. So I think during fall, you know, when we're all kind of fighting off the flu and the cold and all that, like, I think, a little a boost of vitamin C and a little anti inflammatory. casegoods. So why not?

S:  01:08

I'm down with that. Yeah, why not? I'm a big garlic fan. And I have to admit, it's not usually because I'm thinking about it being an anti inflammatory. tasted, but maybe that's why you know, I do okay, through the winter.

01:23

Yeah. credit where credit is due. Right.

S:  01:26

Right. We have zero vampires. So I'm like, that's a plus

01:30

the correlation or causation. We'll never know. You

S:  01:33

know, ed. I think things are going pretty okay for us to weather is definitely changing. There's leaves on the ground now and it's getting that sort of fall overcast, although some of the days have been just really beautiful. Still haven't super jumped on the soups.

01:51

Oh, that's just my thing. That's the Canadian thing. Maybe it's our cool. No, I

S:  01:57

love soup and it will come it will come. It was also a very Czech thing. But super in the Czech Republic. It's always at lunchtime.

02:06

Really? Huh. Whoo. kolev curry. Yeah,

S:  02:09

it was like weird if you had it at dinner, because I don't know you're supposed to eat soup at lunch. So now, we'll be getting on our soups here. Pretty soon, the weather's changing. I'm trying to decide how I'm going to decorate for Halloween this year. Usually, I know my little spider things, but I'm kind of over the spiders.

02:26

I've seen so many pumpkin themed things. I feel like this you're seeing more pumpkin themed things. And in past years, I was I don't know where it was the other day it was out like a Walmart or something. And they had like just an entire section of pumpkin themed like there was something with a cat popping up pumpkin with a giant spider crawling up pumpkin with a little bowl on top. Like it's just I love pumpkin. But I feel like this year for some reason. It's like pumpkin focus.

S:  02:52

I you know, I haven't actually been out to the shops to see what's out. I still am trying very hard not to go out that often. Yeah, but I might like swing on by our party city and see what they've got. Maybe. So I don't know what the major themes are. If there's anything like prevailing or anything this year, but maybe they're trying to get away from some of the gruesome stuff. I never liked that part of Halloween.

03:15

I think it's like no one wants to do the creepy like sad stuff this year. I think we want to do like the wholesome. You know, it's like the one holiday that we're you can enjoy regardless of age. I feel like like there's less responsibility associated with it and then other holidays. But I don't know I think this year maybe we're going for wholesome and entertaining, you know, no spookiness.

S:  03:37

Maybe so although I do have my little ghosts, so I have these like, I have a projector and do the thing through the windows or like the special cloth that you can do outside, which typically is only for like, Halloween night, although I don't know what the trick or treat situations going to be this year. But it's like they're cute little ghosts. It's nothing scary. I don't like oh, like the scary little Casper. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, I guess we probably should shift gears and talk a little bit about our episode.

04:07

Yeah. Let's do it.

S:  04:09

Yeah. So our guest is Torres Kemp. She is a therapist in New York City. And she specializes in working with her clients as they navigate trauma that they've experienced in their lives, specifically racial trauma. But she also works with couples. And in our interview, I asked her about interracial couples, particularly when one partner is white, and the other is non white and how they handle or she helps them work through some of those situations when maybe the white partner doesn't quite understand fully what that trauma can be or the experiences of that person. So, man, she brings a lot of knowledge. And

04:48

clearly he is good at what she does. So yeah, it'll be interesting to see how trauma in terms of our lived experiences in race and America and things like that gets talked about, I think, especially when we talk about relationships, And you know, the notion of a safe space, I think a relationship in any kind of partnership, that should be a safe space. So it'll be interesting to see how people can talk about trauma and race and lived experience in that idea of a safe space.

S:  05:14

Yes, agreed. And while she's a therapist, she also has some film credit. So she is featured in a short film called The evolution of love, where she is a couples therapist, and she discusses the nuances of dating with Tinder, the tender culture. Yeah, yes. And she also is featured on a Netflix film called she did that about black entrepreneurial women. And so she has a spot on that too. Again, very well versed and so interesting with tons of insights. So yeah, let's let's get to it, shall we?

05:50

Let's dive in.

S:  05:51

Alright, here we go. Hi, Torres. How are you?

06:01

Hi, I'm great. How are you? Thank you for having me.

S:  06:05

Oh, I'm doing pretty good. And I'm so glad that you're here. I know that we've chatted a little bit before. So yeah, I'm excited that the day has come and we get to have this conversation together.

06:15

No, me too. Me too.

S:  06:17

Well, before we get started, could you introduce yourself and maybe tell listeners a little bit about your background.

06:24

My name is Torres camp, I'm a licensed clinical social worker based in New York City, I have a full time job at a crime victims agency where I supervise therapist and I also have a private practice where I see primarily couples, I see interracial couples, that's interracial couples where one or both have experienced trauma. And that's kind of my focus. I also see trauma survivors in my private practice, and a lot of women of color kind of got my start working in trauma, working with torture survivors. And then I moved on to work and interpersonal violence. And throughout that time, I got trained as a couples therapist, and also a body based treatment, which is called sensory motor. So kind of like how all that came to be the practice that I do today, I'm primarily using the body as the main source of information, as well as the main source of healing and helping folks build a relationship with their trauma, and just build a language for their experience. And because racism is a form of trauma, I definitely incorporate that into the work I do with my individual clients as well as my couples. Your work sounds so fascinating. And I know I don't need to say this, but it's so necessary,

S:  07:35

I think about the different ways that people can experience trauma, right. And one thought that comes to my mind is how do you even know if what you've experienced? Is trauma, right? Like, how do you know if something has been truly traumatic? Right? That's such a great question.

07:51

I think that a couple things. One is, you know, when we're thinking of trauma, right, most people think of, you know, the capital T traumas. So sexual abuse, physical abuse, childhood abuse, neglect, etc. But there's also other kinds of trauma, right? racism is a form of trauma. Sexism is a form of trauma, you know, there's and then there's intergenerational trauma, which I'm sure we'll get into, which sometimes we're carrying the trauma of our ancestors and might not actually be our trauma that we're carrying. So how I help folks understand what is a trauma reaction versus a normal stress reaction is really how our body experiences it. So usually, when folks are having a trauma reaction, which means that they're having something in the environment that's triggering a reaction that's similar to their trauma, right, their stress response gets activated. Usually, it's a very visceral reaction. Usually, it's a feeling like a like punch in the stomach or tightness in your throat or you can't breathe something that feels like very visceral, that's usually something to do with your trauma versus normal stress reaction where you might feel nervous, or you might feel a little anxious, but you can kind of name it. Usually trauma reactions have a bit of a, you kind of can't find words for it, because it is so visceral.

S:  09:10

Okay. When I hear you describe this, yeah, it takes me back to the week that George Floyd was murdered. And then the video was put out and yeah, the discussions started. that week. There was like three days I literally could not work right. Good.

09:29

Yeah. not working. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.

S:  09:34

I just had to take pause because listening to your description, I was like, Okay, yeah, sure. No, that's that's true.

09:39

That sounds like what I experienced. Yeah. And, and absolutely, that is 100% trauma, black and brown folks in this country. And allies, we're going through a collective experience of trauma, especially those who have had a lived experience of racism, right, which is every black person in this country. So you know, all the things that The symptomology that you're talking about difficulty concentrating, difficulty sleeping, you know, numbing out, you know, hyper arousal, hyper vigilance, all of those symptoms are really under the cluster of post traumatic stress. And I think collectively we're experiencing that. But something that, you know, I did a panel, really soon after the murder of George Floyd. And it was me and the other therapists were talking, it was kind of difficult to define this. Because in the world of trauma and healing in the wellness world, we the assumption is that, okay, you do all this healing work, and it's done. But the trauma of racism is not done. It's continual, even calling it post traumatic. It's like, no, let's just call it continual active trauma. Right. And even with the DSM five, which is the diagnosis manual that creates these disorders, PTSD being one of them, as soon as the trauma is over. Right, and when it comes to racism, it's not. So I just think that we have to note that, you know, even though Okay, that that happens, and then a couple months later, people are still obviously very impacted by this, it doesn't mean that it just ends

S:  11:10

that is so true. Oh, my gosh, that's so true. I mean, yeah. How can it be post traumatic when it's something that's lived every day? That's a good, very good point.

11:21

Yeah. And, and that kind of carries into him. This is like a whole, like a whole other topic. But that kind of carries into like the physical, the somatic symptoms, and like how that impacts physical health, then you look at COVID-19, and how it's disproportionately affecting black and brown folks. And then I look at the sensitized nervous system, you know, and how that how for folks that experience racism, you know, and that persistent chronic, insidious, sometimes subtle experience of trauma, like their nervous system is more sensitized. Right? So that means you might have more inflammation in your body, you know, which might lead to more chronic illnesses,

S:  11:59

right. And I have heard about being under the constant state of stress. Mm hmm. And how that affects your cortisol levels?

12:09

of inflammation.

S:  12:10

Yeah, exactly. One conversation that we've been having is about ally ship, and what it means to be an ally even, there's even been discussion about what's the difference between being an ally and being someone who's shows solidarity, as you know, is there a difference? But the underlying thing is, there are some people who feel like, Well, yes, I can be an ally. But what if, like, part of me is black, but I don't feel black enough? or How can I talk about my own racial issues? If I'm not, like, if I don't look like this or like that? Or if my ancestry isn't actually from Africa, but from somewhere else? And I'm a brown person?

12:51

Yeah, people are still feeling pain, or feeling the effects of this. But sometimes it's like, Am I enough of this? Or do I even have a right to participate in this? And I wondered if you could talk to that a little bit. Yeah. I mean, first off, like, absolutely, you have a right to be outraged and enraged, because of what's happening because of racism, you know, so 100%. And I understand that I understand the nuance of that of like, Okay, I'm not 100%, black, whatever that means, though, therefore, and maybe I haven't had as much of a lived experience of racism as some of my other friends and colleagues and family members. So there's that point, right. And that's the kind of the kind of thing about like, how does racism go from being an intellectual conversation to a lived experience? And how does that impact how we take action? First off, if you are black and brown was country you have been impacted by racism, I think that happens on a spectrum racism, colorism, etc. But it can also be that maybe you have an ancestral connection to racism. Maybe there's an intergenerational trauma component of racism that you are still experiencing. Maybe you have a lineage of that that you're still experiencing. Okay. Can

S:  14:06

you break that down for us? What does that mean? Yeah, generational trauma.

14:10

Yeah, when I so my conceptualization of intergenerational trauma, I break it down into like four components. So I break the first part is the epigenetic component of trauma. And this is a really interesting budding field. And it pretty much talks about how like, our genes are impacted by by our environment and by stressors, including trauma. The second component is like the explicit passing down of intergenerational trauma. And that's kind of what we think about when we think of patterns of trauma repeating over and over and over again, you know, grandfather was abusive to grandmother then father's abusive to mother and then you find yourself in an abusive relationship like those types of like, patterns of trauma that get past them. We also see this often with sexual abuse, where you know, there's a lot of secrecy with sexual abuse, but usually kind of goes through generations, and then there was like the implicit aspect of intergenerational trauma. And this is a part that I do a lot of work with, with my clients. And I find the most fascinating because it's really about how our parents raise us as a result of their own trauma. Right. So how some of the influence of their of how they raise us because of what they've gone through, right, so, and that can play out in terms of where the parents move their family, right, some parents move their children to certain communities, to keep them safe. That is a result of racial trauma, and might not be explicit, but it's, that's an implicit, right, as far as like, also how we teach children to behave in public, how we teach children to engage with strangers, how we talk about family business, how we talk about trauma, right? In our family, and especially among you know, in black families, it's like you don't know your business, you keep it within the family. That's all implicit threads have intergenerational trauma that gets passed down. Also, like when we think about how we handle emotions, a lot of times that's learned within the family, also. And you know, there can be a trauma component of that, too. And then also, the fourth piece is racism as trauma, right? every black and brown person in America has experienced some kind of racial trauma. And I think that when we kind of talk about colorism and the spectrum of racism, even, you know, the legacy of slavery where, you know, light skinned folks had it, you know, might have been the house slaves, the dark skin might have been the field slaves like that type of like separation based on skin tone, right? We also see that still playing out in families where maybe the light skinned brothers shade a little bit better. You know, maybe the dark skinned sisters treated a little bit worse. Right? That's a direct, I would say a direct, descended from slavery, that's still somewhat plays out. And again, this might not be capital T trauma when you think about it, right. But it's still it's still trauma. It's still pervasive, it's so insidious, it's still harmful.

S:  17:02

Right. Wow. So I wanted to talk to you a little bit about the implicit trauma first. Yeah. This is the one where you make decisions, right, based on how you were Yeah, how you may have experienced anything, right. So do you ever watch or have you ever watched the show mixed ish?

17:22

You know, I haven't. I have not seen that show? I've not heard so much. I

S:  17:26

haven't. Okay, well, it's actually, it's interesting, because there's some controversy, some people really like it and relate. And some people don't like the way things are portrayed. So if you've ever watched blackish, or if you know, tracee, Ellis Ross, character, Bo, or her name is rainbow. Mixed ish is sort of based on her childhood growing up with one black parent and one white parent, her mother is black. And in the show, her aunt, who's her mother sister, is loud and boisterous. And the opposite of both mother who is quiet and reserved. And one would say, you know, she gets teased a lot from by her sister, her sister says, Okay, well, like you're trying to be white, all those kind of things that people may have heard over their lifetime, if they don't behave in a stereotypical way that people expect them to when they imagine a black woman. And so there is one particular episode where rainbows grandfather are so her father's father, who is white, and well to do invites their family to go to the country club, like they've never gone to the country club. It's just kind of not been open to them. It's not been something that was offered to them, particularly when this show takes place. Right. And I think it's in the 80s, early 80s, I think. So they go to this country club. And the whole time. Rainbow or Beau's mother is super, super hyper aware of everyone looking at them. They have some slushies. And one of the flavors is watermelon. So she doesn't want them to order watermelon because of the stereotype of black people and watermelon. She won't let them play, like all of that style, right? Really? That's what that's the first thing I thought I was like, Yes, like that is such an illustration of that.

19:14

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I kind of

S:  19:17

run as far away from blackness as you can, if it means that you would be judged maybe the way that you were judged,

19:24

or the way that you experienced it right or, or not even like yeah, I mean, I sit not even as like running away from blackness, but it's like, it's like always being aware that like white folks are looking at you and like, you know, having to defy the stereotypes as like part of your day to day daily job. That is that is from racism, that is a burden from racism. That is a lived experience and a unique experience that people of color have that white folks do not have to worry about. Yeah, so I think that's a beautiful example. Mm hmm.

S:  19:54

That's what came to mind. And I mean, I think probably so many of us could actually find our own Example. I mean, I can I absolutely like Yeah, absolutely. From like a very basic level, I can think about how I used to wear my hair just so that I would not be teased or seen as other all of those things about all that. Yeah, I

20:16

mean, I think Yeah, same, you know, I was raised in a very white suburban town in Indiana, by a black mother and a German dad. And you know, my mother grew up in Jim Crow and Mobile, Alabama and in the 50s. Right. So, you know, I mean, inevitably, of course, that influenced how she raised us and the parenting and the things that she is she was looking out for, you know, that other folks didn't have to, you know, my neighbors didn't have to reach out, you know, her and she'll say, like, you know, one of the biggest tasks I've ever had in life is having to defy stereotypes. I mean, that's something that she says regularly. So, you know, this is what this is what I mean, when we talk about the implicit stuff, right? It's not as like, it's not necessarily as obvious, but it's really that nuance experience of being sometimes the one and only, right, and again, like, whether that's a you know, a black experience or a mixed experience, it's just an experience where you're not, you know, you are, you might be the one and only,

S:  21:17

right, Mm hmm. Right, it actually weighs pretty heavy on you to note like, you never can fully relax.

21:23

You know,

S:  21:24

it's like this bull, like, always on guard. Yeah, yeah. Earlier in our conversation, you mentioned that you talk to couples who are interracial? Yeah. So kind of you just described, briefly your experience. And then I was talking about the show mixed ish. And this dynamic between the two sides of the family, I wondered in your experience as what that's like, when you talk to couples where one is experiencing any, any version of these types of trauma, when related to race?

21:55

Absolutely, yeah. How

S:  21:57

does the spouse or the other partner handle that?

22:00

Right? I mean, I think a couple of things. I think that it's really important to me, I think language is really important. And naming experiences are really important. I think, in general, there's a lot of gaslighting that happens for black people, and, you know, people of color and women. So I really think it's important to like help people find language and be like, no, this is actually happening, this is not in your head, this is real, and your reaction is actually appropriate. I think that, um, you know, when I'm, when I'm doing couples work, especially now with everything that's going on, I mean, it's like, you have to bring in race, right, you have to bring in, you have to bring in race. And like for me, you know, it's not the for the person who color in the relationship, it's a lot of emotional labor to teach the white partner about their lived experience, it's really not fair. And really, that's why like, white folks needs to be doing this anti racist work. And there's a lot of resources out there and a lot of groups out there. So I kind of, you know, hold space for that I help, I help the name of the experience of both parties. But I also do provide some of that education, if necessary, to kind of take some of that burden off of the person of color in the relationship. And also like challenged the, you know, the white partner about, you know, to do that work, and to really understand how their privilege does impact them and the relationship and kind of allow them to be curious about that.

S:  23:35

I think that's so awesome. Because now I'm able to attach personal meaning to every single little thing or say, Yeah, my husband is white. And I'm not. And so my husband and I, we've been married for a long time, going on 23 years. And during that time, like, we're still having these conversations are things that I'm still teaching him about my culture, and about how I feel about things. And one thing that has been like, wow, is, even though we've had these conversations, and it is a bit of a burden, and sometimes it's not a burden, because it's not like I don't feel like telling him of course, I do. Write sometimes it's more about like, more about my own insecurities. When we first were married, in fact, I was convinced that he was going to run away with a white woman because like, I wasn't going to be attractive enough for he wouldn't like this about me or that about me, or what if my food was like this, or my family, whatever. And so finally, you know, we got through that, but then it was less about sort of those types of insecurities and more about, like, really, we've been together this long and I'm still but it's true. There are things that are going to come up and what has blown me away and I have to just give him a shout out through this experience that we're all going through no matter what your perspective as we all are working our way through processing what happened to George Floyd and what that has meant for the many before him. And sadly, the many that will come? Is this what now? Why now kind of thing, and he has begun to do his own, investigating his own reading, and has been so excited to be like, Oh, my gosh, I just read this. Have you seen this? Let me share this with you. I've been watching that going.

25:23

Wow.

S:  25:23

Yeah. Because before that, it was always me going, you should read this. Let me tell you about this. It's my joy that he is taking ownership of his own learning his own figuring it out. Yes. And then becoming that advocate, like he told me he was in a situation where it was all white men having a conversation about this. And only one of them, I think knew about me knew that we were that he was married to a woman of color, a black woman specifically. And so he was kind of feeling discomfort, like,

26:01

I don't know, if I bring this up, I don't know. And then he did. And then he told me how empowering it was for him to have accumulated that knowledge to have read the stuff that he read and been really not just passively taking it in, but actively seeking it out. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. And I think, again, like that makes such a difference, like the white partner being proactive, like you shouldn't have to be giving all the resources and all the books like that's part of anti racist work. It's uncomfortable. It's doing the work. It's being proactive. It's understanding your own power and your own privilege. And absolutely, there's so many thoughts, I had to what you're saying the one thing that you mentioned about the insecurity. So I talk to white people about this point a lot, because I think when it comes to racism, especially with black women, and the gaslighting that happens, a lot of times racism, like in the workplace, for example, is somewhat subtle, right? It's not always like the overt, it might be the passing up for a promotion, or expecting you to do all these things are totally out of scope of what you normally do, or, you know, trying to manage your behavior or your attitude, or, you know, making comments about your books or your hair or just, you know, those types of like, microaggressions. Right. And I think it is not uncommon for folks to question themselves and be like, isn't me, what am I doing right and not, and sometimes not being able to name it. I mean, I definitely have clients that come to me that have PTSD, from racism at the workplace. And you know, when never have recognized that if we didn't have the language, they would be like, I just have heart palpitations, and I just can't sleep at night. And it's like, actually, like, what's actually going on for you What's happening, you know, and then to hear about some of the stuff that's happening in the workplace that's so abusive, and so toxic. So I feel that to say that, you know, the continual questioning of like the

27:56

person really racism,

27:58

do you really think that happened, that kind of adds to the gaslighting. And as part of the reason why it's important for like, white allies to have some of this language, you understand that it's much more nuanced. There's almost this idea of like, you have to prove that someone was racist for it to be racist,

S:  28:15

right? That's true.

28:17

And that's also very problematic, because again, it's subtle. And then there's the whole thing about but he's a good person. He didn't mean it, you know, he just, he's just ignorant. Like, these types of justifications are really harmful. Even this idea, sometimes I hear people say, Well, if that person was being like that, too, why don't you just speak up for yourself? Why don't you just fight back? And I think that the idea of, okay, what's going to be more emotional labor for me, I can speak up and be gaslighted and a cause more issues, or I can just kind of keep my head down and just do my job. And that dilemma is very common, and it's, it's really unfair and fun. Okay. So again, like all these nuances of like, what happens when someone experiences a microaggression, we can like educate our white allies about this, right. But there's also like a lot of resources out there to help people understand this. So they can kind of meet you halfway, instead of you having to do all the labor of being like, Okay, this is what this is. Because again, like, this is a lived experience. And every time you're talking about something that's traumatic, it's going to be activating for you. Right? So it's so helpful when someone just kind of gets it, they might not get it, because they don't have that experience, that lived experience. But they can get it much more if they've started to like, familiarize and educate themselves about this.

S:  29:36

Right? Yeah, wow. Well, there's a term that both of us have used a couple of times. Yeah. And that's the difference between being a person of color and being a black person.

29:47

Mm hm.

S:  29:48

Have you ever explored that? Absolutely.

29:49

I mean, I think especially for like mixed folks like identity is so complicated and and for some folks, That's not right. And I think a lot of it I you know, I think we had spoke about this earlier. has to do with one of how I identify myself, and then how you and the world identify me. Right, and especially if you're ethnically ambiguous, you know, typically speaking, it can be, depending on where you are in the world, you know, someone might think you're this and you might think you're that. So again, I think this goes back to like lived experience and sexual experience. You know, essentially, when I think of like, as a person of color, it's anyone who's not white, I want to say exclusively white, even though these are such social constructs, right, but has, you know, has like a has a, has an ancestral history and has a lived experience of being non white. So to me, a personal color is really an umbrella. And I actually think the word has been really helpful for mixed folks, folks that are multi ethnic, when they're like, I don't know where I fit in. And I, when I say this, can I not? It's just interesting, because how that shifts, right? And you know, how often we identify ourselves based on our experience, and based on how people see us and how people treat us. But yeah, I mean, again, you can be Japanese, you can be, you know, Mexican, and still experienced racism, you know, 100% mean, we know that, right? So to me, people of color is really the umbrella. But I also understand when, you know, some folks are like, No, I'm black, like, I'm black. And I'm saying that, so yeah,

S:  31:20

I just was curious what you thought about that in terms. I mean, it's still I consider myself a person of color. But I still also think of myself as a black woman, very similarly to how people apply hypo descent to like Halle Berry. Right?

31:33

Or, you know, and then like Obama, I mean, to it's, you know, it's like, it's interesting how, you know, black and white, mixed race folks are, you know, are primarily seen as black in this country, right, and, like, identify myself as a mixed race, black woman, and as a woman of color, my mother's Creole, but you know, I mean, there's also like, how people see me maybe how even some folks in my family see me, you know, and again, like, I always trace this back to racial trauma. I mean, even the idea of, you know, you're this enough, or you're that enough or whatever, it always has that racial trauma piece. And then kind of just culturally speaking, you know, Koreans have a really rich history, and also have had a lot of privilege. You know, I mean, even historically, they've had a lot of privilege. So then the other aspects of colorism even under the guise of racism, right, again, like you might not have had as much of the lived experience as some folks but like, you come from a history and ancestral history variational trauma, you know,

S:  32:35

yes. Well, I, I think about what you said also about being enough. And I think of it as this caught in the middle kind of thing I have experienced, and I know some others out there have to this feeling of not fitting in in any buddy's world. And there's a lot of argument about the term reverse racism, since racism in itself has to do with the exercising of power over someone, right, like this supremacy. But one time, I was in a conversation with someone and I asked or I mentioned something about having experienced colorism. And she was very adamant that it was impossible that I had experienced that because I'm light skinned, and that it can't be reversed. It's only dark skinned people experiencing this when compared to someone with lighter skin. And I argued that fact. And I said no. Because I do think that it depends on your setting, too. And actually, who is wielding the power if you want to think of it as a power thing. And I think back to when I was in fifth grade, and I went to the school that was predominantly black. And I remember very well these girls who were so mean to me, and they just kept teasing me they would pull my hair and they would say all these horrible things like just horrible things and always accuse me of wanting to be white and all of this stuff and one day coming home from school and it had started from something that a girl had offered me one of those like Little Debbie apple pie thing. Mm hmm. offered me this Little Debbie apple pie. And this other girl wanted it but she had the other one had already given it to me. And it started this huge thing throughout the day I you know people knocking my stuff over putting notes in my locker all these horrible things and then at the end of the day, they got off the bus with me at my bus stop except usual is only like three or four people but the whole bus accident. All of the kids know what I did not know as throughout the course of the day. They had spread this thing about how they were going to jump me so everybody wanted to see this happen. Oh, horrible. I remember getting off the bus and then realizing like all the people were getting off the bus and then chasing me and I had across the street and I lived kind of down this little walkway thing and screaming for my mother. And she heard me just as they were grabbing me and she He was like throwing things to make them leave me alone. And to me, in my mind that was colorism. Whether or not I was the person with the lighter skin. Mm hmm. They were ready to beat me up because of how I looked. And they didn't think that I deserved to have an apple pie. I mean, is that colorism? Or do you see it only as going one directionally? I mean,

35:27

I mean, yeah, I mean, I think that I think that is an example of colorism. And I think that again, like when we're talking about this stuff, I'm all like, I think we have to also just put it under the guise of white supremacy, right? Like, why is this even Why are we even having these divisions like this? Where does this come from? Where does this legacy have light skin privilege, or just, you know, which, you know, might have been part of the reason why they're being like that, or, you know, this type of thing, like this division comes from that comes from that divide and conquer comes from my legacy of slavery. So I think it's, it's To me, it's not a matter of like, does it exist or not? It's like, kind of going up a level and being like, why is this even a thing in the first place? And the whole thing about like, do I fit in? Or do I belong? I mean, a lot of mix folks feel like that, you know, it's depending on like, how they were raised, and like, where they were raised? And you know, how they love to be honest. And I think it's that feeling. Yeah, I mean, I understand that feeling of like, do I fit in? Am I going to be accepted? I don't fit in here. I don't fit in there. And where do I fit in like this? This whole thing? It's complicated, right? And I think it's always important, especially like in a therapeutic process, to kind of watch my only Miss might be the only space that folks can actually unpack that identity. Right? And it shouldn't be the only space, it really shouldn't, you know, but sometimes it is, and it's like, really kind of going deep into where does this come from? Why do you feel like, you know, you can't say that you're black? Because you are. So? Yeah, that's kind of like a work in progress. Yeah, it's,

S:  37:01

I think that's such a good point, I guess the most important thing to do is to really look at the source, I suppose. I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me, to come at it from that angle.

37:12

Because I also know, like, I know, you know, I know, women that their mother was black, and their dad was white, and they're like, Oh, no, you're black. And they fully identifies that, and they are very comfortable identifying that. And then I know some folks that like, maybe they had a, you know, black mother or father and you know, and that we're pretty much like, no, you're not black, you're you're mixed, or you're passing or let's kind of hide your hide your ethnicity a little bit, you know, and that obviously impacts impacts how people identify. But again, I always go back to like, what's the functionality of that? All of these things are serving a function, right. And it's all coming from the same base of trying to trying to fit in and in a white world, so to speak.

S:  37:58

Right? Wow. Well, this has been so fascinating. And I want to really, thank you so much for sharing your insights. And I learned so much.

38:10

Such a rich conversation.

S:  38:12

Yes, I really appreciate it. Did you have anything else that you'd like to add? Or that would be good for us to know,

38:21

I just think that it's so great that we're like having this conversation. I mean, naming racism is trauma. I think that that, you know, even talking to my elders about this, like, they weren't doing that back in the day, they weren't being like, I'm traumatized, because of racism, you know, it's like, where they're just trying to survive. So the fact that now we're naming racism as trauma and actually, like, seeking out there's so many folks that, like, so many folks that are seeking out therapy right now, because of racism, and I think even for the ethnically ambiguous for the multi ethnic, mixed race folks who don't feel like they belong, you know, I guess I would always encourage them to to kind of trace where that comes from, you know, and maybe challenge maybe that maybe they actually do belong within the field. And I think that sometimes we can think that we're, you know, we're not welcome or we can be on the outside, but actually, like, we are more accepted than we think, as people of color and, you know, almost each other. So, no, I

S:  39:16

think you're right. I mean, you talked about the gaslighting but I think in this particular instance, it wasn't gaslighting. I was just so hypersensitive to some it was it had a lot to do with where I was living at the time. And it seemed like every single thing that came up, I was like, feeling judged or feeling like it was a racial thing. And then my one friend was like Shawna, it really isn't. And I just was convinced it wasn't until later when I left that setting. And I was like, dude, she was right. But you know, no ingredient,

39:47

and even for the folks that are like, Oh, I don't know if I can like really say that I've experienced racism because I have so much privilege like everyone has power and I mean, black women are still the most marginalized, you know, in this country, but Like most folks have, there is a spectrum of privilege for everyone power and privilege for everyone. Right? And even the fact that we're having this conversation, even the fact that like, Where do I fit into it, and in this way fit in that, like, this person accepts me, this person doesn't like that's still a byproduct of racism. Right? Regardless, if you're a dark skinned, you know, it's still part of your lived experience. And that's the thing that like, you know, I talk to, you know, the white allies about about that about that lived experience by having to always think about that. It's just, it's all it's like, just a part of your of your daily life. And in different way, you know, in any unique way.

S:  40:39

Thank you so much today. This was awesome.

40:42

Thank you so much.

S:  40:43

I have so much to offer. Oh, my pleasure. Really, I wish you the best. And I want to thank you also for the work that you do with others. And I look forward to having another conversation with you.

40:57

Thank you so much. This was so great. You take care of yourself. All right, you too.

41:10

Okay, so listening to Tourette that was really empowering, like to listen to discussions about racism as something that is like sustained trauma. It isn't, there's no end date to it. And I think that distinction that she makes between when we're dealing with trauma, we can kind of end data and be like, this was the trauma and then the rest is processing or sorting through that trauma. There's no end date to it, it pops up when we're not expecting it, it pops up, I think in all avenues, like you know, she mentioned, the workforce, like people having Post Traumatic Stress Disorder when it comes to race directly related to the workforce.

S:  41:48

Agreed. It can't be post traumatic if it's ongoing, right. That was something that was really salient to me, like, we have to acknowledge that these are things that people continue to work through.

42:00

Mm hmm. You know, she points out the physical impact and the physical health side of dealing with racism. And one thing that came to mind for me immediately was I recently saw this post on Instagram from the The Washington Post, about 75% of children who died from COVID. Were panic black or American Indian, according to CDC statistics. This is in September, so it's been about a month since. But she's getting out I think, like the physical impact of what sometimes doesn't seem tangible to outsiders. And that's racism. And I think healthcare is one aspect where racism is really pervasive.

S:  42:37

Absolutely. And I mean, this stat right here is pretty crazy to even think about, but then, I mean, just even outside of COVID, every day sort of treatments, specifically, black women in the US, their mortality rates are so much higher when it comes to the health care system, because they aren't believed most of the time. They aren't treated as they should be treated for their conditions, and the rate of death among black women when it comes to childbirth. Yeah,

43:13

it's crazy, outrageous compared to other stats in the US.

S:  43:17

Yes. And not just the health care system when we're talking about the trauma related to race, but also these comorbidities that we hear about just walking around on a day to day basis with a heightened sense of awareness of always having to deal with racism, or being on guard in case you should have to deal with it. All those things take a toll on one's body, not just your emotional state, your physical body, you know, the cortisone levels are so high. It's a state of constant stress. So of course, that is going to contribute to heart conditions or other conditions. Then you introduce something like COVID. And it's just compounding. But even with the children, definitely we can see the links between racism and trauma.

44:10

So I just wanted to take a moment to acknowledge the life of a woman named Joyce educon. To the mother of seven, the loving wife. Joyce was an indigenous woman who lived in Quebec in Canada. She went to the hospital looking for help. One of her last acts was to stream the treatment she was receiving at the hospital. She recorded staff berating her, humiliating her, completely, robbing her of any dignity. That's something that happens in my country quite frequently, but this time, there was a camera. Joyce died without receiving the care she deserves. If you want to read more about it, I would just look up Joyce ethercon. And I think if you have anything that you want to learn about in Canada, I think this is one thing to look into. But yeah, yeah That's,

S:  45:00

that is really tragic, Carmen and what we'll do let's, let's put a link in the show notes for folks to Sorokin

45:08

read the story. I don't want to do any kind of personal attacks. But I think when you're faced with that information, and you see that this is not a one off, that women do not trust the system digitus people do not trust the system. At some point, you have to make a decision of whose voices are you going to listen to?

S:  45:25

Oh, my gosh, that idea of trust, like where we are right now in the US and sounds like also in Canada, we have a crisis of trust. Pete Buda judge, who is one of our presidential candidates for the Democratic Party just published a book about trust, and the scary reality that we have right now that people can't trust our systems around the world, these scientists and professionals are working so hard to develop a vaccine that people might not even take, because they are scared. Yeah, that's a really big problem.

46:01

Yeah, we got better, we got to do better, actually. And we can do better. Like the notion that we can't is just not true, we can absolutely do better. This is what happens when we deny the existence of systemic racism, and we don't listen to the voices of people who are living it.

S:  46:16

Exactly. You cannot fix what you do not face.

46:18

Yeah, exactly. And I think the circle back a little bit, one thing that, you know, dress mentioned was sometimes not having the language to identify with the feelings are like she mentioned, you know, heart palpitations and inability to sleep at night in some of her clients or people that she'd worked with. And that actually being a symptom of post traumatic stress disorder, it got me thinking, you know, medicine is a discipline, I don't think that it's a discipline, which creates a lot of space for the lived experiences of bipoc as truth. So, you know, to me, it's like, as a consequence of that, I don't think it's that surprising that bypass and I can only speak from my own experience as a woman of color, you know, is the system going to pump out words and charts and toolkits for me to be able to work with those symptoms? Like I don't necessarily think so.

S:  47:08

Right. And to add to that, not just not having the space or those toolkits, as you mentioned, but also she talks about gaslighting where it's pushed aside or even if you did have those words, would you be believed? Or would you be questioned as to whether the experience that you had really was a situation of racism, or something like that? So then, even if you do have those tools, if you're always treated where things you know, there's doubt as to what you're experiencing, then you question yourself, and maybe you stop speaking up?

47:43

Yeah. Carmen, I

S:  47:44

wanted to ask your thoughts also about this idea of racism being passed down generationally, the idea that you can experience trauma, not even from your own experience, but from the experiences of your family members that have come before you. I was like, That is so true. This idea of implicit racism, and how our parents raised us like, what their experiences were, and that impact on us as children.

48:16

Yeah, the way that I think sometimes we're as children told to speak, you know, be polite, be whatever, be good at this, you know, always be quiet or whatever, like these different things, and parents may not know, and I think parents, because I think that's my closest example. I don't think parents necessarily know that that's why they're doing it. But I think that goes to the fact that you're saying they're not conscious of what they're doing. They just know that they're trying to kind of prevent some of these racist bubbles popping up into their child's life. And so they condition themselves in a way I think, to kind of protect their kids from that. And then that gets passed down.

S:  48:55

Oh, yes. So I'm reading this book called What if by Steve Robbins, and it's actually a book about diversity, inclusion in the workplace, or inclusion and diversity in the workplace because he thinks it's important to put inclusion first. I won't go into that piece, even though I think it's super interesting and relevant, really, the part that is striking me as we have this conversation is his personal life. And he talks about growing up with his mother who was from Vietnam. He was born in Vietnam, too, and they immigrated to the US when I think he was about five years old. Unfortunately, his mother took her life really because of the racial trauma that she experienced being an immigrant in the US. And he talks about having to work through that, but also how his mother prepared him or tried to protect him as he grew up in the US. So you know, at one point he says like, why do I have a perm? Why is my name Steve

50:00

Yeah, like you, you want to you want your child to be safe like you want them to not go through the same kind of vicious, like, physical acts of racism, you know that you that I'm assuming she was probably subjected to.

S:  50:13

Oh, yes, yeah, it's crazy. Well, thank you, Carmen.

50:16

Wow, what

S:  50:17

a great episode with Torres and I appreciate the discussion with you what you bring to this as well. Thank you.

50:24

Thank you.

S:  50:26

All right. Next week, I'll be waiting to hear a new soup recipe.

50:31

I'm running out of often,

S:  50:32

oh, well, listeners you can write in to us, tell us what you know, give us some recipes to as usual. They can always reach out at True Colors cast calm or you can find my contact information or write to me directly at true colors at Shawna gann.com Check out our True Colors podcasts on Instagram. And stay tuned because those of you who are following the Facebook page, you'll know that that is shifting to the Facebook group or we can have more interaction. So stay tuned for that. In the meantime, be safe out there, y'all. Please share a smile with someone and always find an opportunity to make someone feel welcome. Take care y'all Take care. All right, love y'all. Talk to you soon.

51:22

You've been listening to our true colors.