Sticks and Stones: Discussing Micro (and Macro!) Aggressions with Daniel Quan-Watson

Daniel Quan-Watson, a high-ranking official in Canada's Public Service, has a unique blend of experiences. He's held the highest Canadian civil service position, is fluent in both English and French, has lived in 13 Canadian locations, traveled extensively across the country, authored long-lasting legislation, overseen a prominent National Parks system, and contributed to shaping Canada's responses to critical issues. Notably, he's the first Deputy Minister of Chinese-Canadian heritage in the federal government, akin to a US Undersecretary.

Mr. Quan-Watson, a diverse heritage, discusses his response to Rex Murphy's article on racism in Canada as our guest. See the links for more details.

REX MURPHY: Canada is not a racist country, despite what the Liberals say

DANIEL QUAN-WATSON: An Answer to Rex Murphy's Questions on Racism in Canada

Other interesting reads:

• What Racial Terms You Should Avoid
• Understanding the Stressors and Types of Discrimination That Can Affect Multiracial Individuals
• Biracial couple shares experience, advice on having conversations about race with children

Want to be a guest or know someone who should join us? Click this link to complete the guest interest form.

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If this is your first time with OTC, check out EPISODE 1: START HERE for more background on the show.

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Transcript

Sticks and Stones: Discussing Micro (and Macro!) Aggressions with Daniel Quan-Watson

Duration - 56:24
SPEAKERS
Shawna, Carmen, Daniel, Intro

Intro  00:06
Welcome to our True Colors hosted by Shawna Gann joined her as she explores the challenges of being a racial and ethnic Enigma, and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.

Carmen  00:21
Hey, Shawna, how's it going?

Shawna  00:24
Hey, pretty good. I am operating on caffeine. And caffeine.

Carmen  00:32
Yeah, same here. I actually, my aunt and uncle got me a gift card to Nespresso. So not only is my espresso machine fixed, I know I have more coffee. And I've got I've got a few varieties. So I feel like I'm living my best life.

Shawna  00:48
So listen, I have a little bit of news. 

Carmen  00:51 
Aww

Shawna  00:52
Because I was teasing you about your $120 tube issue or whatever that was. 

Carmen  00:58
Yes 

Shawna  01:00
With this machine, and then how about we got a gift? We got an espresso machine. 

Carmen  01:05
Oh, my goodness, welcome. 

Shawna  01:08
Oh, this was so nice. I'm going to be able to use all of these sample capsules and then after that, I can't afford to buy any more coffee. But I

Carmen  01:14
Yeah you can say that now but Welcome to the call.

Shawna  01:17
Yes, anyway, so there's that's my little my update. But seriously, I I've been so so busy. Not that that's a surprise. Every time I talk to you, I'm so so busy. 

Carmen  01:26
Yeah

Shawna  01:27
my new year's resolution is to start paring down projects. How about you, you didn't You're doing well what you got going on?

Carmen  01:34
It's like I feel like every new year I start off with like on January 1, I have like a list of 10 things I'm going to do and you know, the upcoming year, I don't really have that many I think maybe it's like part of the pandemic I think, like keeping up my workouts ah, I applied finally got my application into grad school. So it looks good. It'll take some time to go over. But I'm feeling a little, you know, good knock on wood about that. But I was joking earlier. I think one of my new year's resolutions will be to be more of a morning person. So maybe from like, 829 onwards because I start work at 830 from like 829 onwards, I'll be a little bit more of a morning person in 2021. 

Shawna  02:17
I don't know, I think you really need to stretch yourself. I would go with 827

Carmen  02:23
Ooh, okay. 

Shawna  02:25
Just, just

Carmen  02:26
Moving quickly

Shawna  02:29
Stretch a little bit there, Carmen. 

Carmen  02:31
Yeah, I need to, uh, you know what we'll see, like, maybe 828. That'll be an extra minute of sanity.

Shawna  02:41
I resolved to be a morning person.

Carmen  00:44
Yeah

Shawna  00:45
I don't know if I can go for that for myself. But I definitely try. I mean, I'm typically up and about. It's just the brain function like that level. You know, I can't make any promises. But I wish you well on your endeavor.

Carmen  02:58
Thank you all. We'll check in next week and see.

Shawna  03:02
Absolutely. All right. Well, I want to get a start because we have a very special guest this week. And I think actually you'd be most appropriate if you introduced our guest.

Carmen  03:14
Oh, okay. Well, today's guest this week's guest is his name is Daniel Kwan. Watson. He is actually my dad. He is part Chinese. He is part European. My dad is fluent in three languages. He's actually to our listeners, this is going to be weird for me. And for you. My dad has only ever spoken to me in French. So today's interview, he'll be speaking to me in English, so that'll be the job. 

Shawna  03:40
Wow

Carmen  03:41
So my dad has lived in five provinces in one territory. He's lived in the same city I'm living in right now. That's actually where he met my mom. He works for the federal government here in Canada. And he he's actually pretty outdoorsy, I would say he really likes hunting, fishing, camping, things like that. Uh, He loves a good book, too. I think that's probably where I got a large part of my love of reading. And he's pretty adventurous like my dad has definitely been the kind of person to be like, oh, there's a seat sale. Let's go to Hong Kong. So yeah, that's, that's my dad in a nutshell. That's Daniel Kwan. Watson in a nutshell, I should say.

Shawna  04:18
Your dad sounds pretty awesome. You know, being an Alaskan, I would love to say that. I'm outdoorsy and all of that. But no. I will just leave that to you all. But I love the adventure and super happy to have him on the show. 

Carmen  04:35
Me too.  

Shawna  04:36
Well, hello, Daniel. How are you?

Daniel  04:38
I'm very well. Thank you.

Shawna  04:40
Thank you so much for being on the show today. I'm really looking forward to this conversation because you've got so much experience and insight that can really speak to many of the issues that we address here on our true colors. So welcome, welcome. I want to thank you for your time today. If it's okay, I'd really like to focus On a letter that you wrote in response to an article that was published regarding events in the US and how they relate to events in Canada, specifically around race and racism.

Daniel 05:14 
Hmm.

Shawna  05:15
My first question to you is, with so many opinions out there, and people voicing themselves through articles on TV shows or even through blogs, social media, however, what was it about this particular article that made it the catalyst for your response?

Daniel  05:33
Two things. First of all, the person who wrote it is one who knows Canada, just beyond what most Canadians will ever know, this is a long standing known national commentator and media figure has been to every part of the country has talked to hundreds of 1000s of Canadians would be my guests and wrote at the period of time of the unrest this summer in the US that was mirrored by many similar protests and movements in Canada asked the question, is racism still really a part of Canadian life, essentially, positing the view that it has disappeared? And I think at first, when I started to write it was really just personal therapy. It was just about not being able to believe that this question could actually be asked, and so I just started writing really more out of frustration, and just for my own self, but I actually kept going and going and going, and then a construct came to me and I started following that. And as I was completing that, I started sharing it with a few folks Carmen among them, and just asked if they thought that that would add any value to the conversation. And in the end, I decided, I'll treat the question as it was asked in good faith. And I'll answer it to the best of my ability, and I won't claim to speak on anybody else's behalf. But just living and growing up, you know that there are many, many, many other people who have shared similar experiences, because you've talked about them. But I thought, I will just put mine down. And I will put it down on paper. And I will put it down as a block of things. Because one of the things that I found is if you relate a story, people spend in many instances all their time discounting that particular story and give you 58 different theories of how it wasn't what it was. And I thought, No, I'm gonna go with volume here. And I'm going to make it impossible for people to explain away all of it, you can explain away one of maybe a few you think you want to give it a try. But I don't think you can explain away nine pages of stuff. And that nine pages is a subset of, you know, probably 500 that I could have written.

Shawna  07:53
Yes. And one of the things that you included was just if you know somebody that might relate to some of these things, ask them and then if you don't know, somebody, ask yourself why you don't do it. I just thought, Wow, that's so powerful. Because you know, I just mentioned this, the power and diversity and the richness there. And if we don't have a diverse group of folks that are in our inner circles, though, I mean, that does kind of make a difference as to how we see things, as you said, you can come in and try to attack it with a million different theories. But what's out there is out there, and it's about perspective. And if you limit your perspective, it does make a difference in how you voice opinions on certain aspects as well. You know, I was thinking about what you said regarding writing this out as being somewhat therapeutic. I was curious about that, as I read this. First of all, I was floored. There are so many times that I would come across one of your anecdotes and go Yep, yep. I mean, my background is different than yours. 

Daniel  08:56
Hmm

Shawna  08:57
However, I have experienced so many of those things in a different version. 

Daniel  08:59
Yeah. 

Shawna  09:00
So there's no doubt that it's there. Did you feel different once it was published, like as you were writing it, and it was feeling therapeutic in a way? 

Carmen  09:09
Hmm

Shawna  09:10
How did you feel once it was actually imprinted out there for all to see?

Daniel  09:13
Well, first of all, it was a bit of a surprise. I had shared it inside our system. And I was getting remarkable response to it from inside the public service. And it was running to two types of commentaries, Uh, I would say roughly 80% of what I was getting, were people saying this is a version of my story, thanks for speaking up. And they were then relating their own experiences. And the other 20%, which I thought was also critically important were people who were saying, I had no idea I've known you for 20 years, and we've never talked about this. I have no idea that it was it was like this. And then it got published in a magazine and they hadn't talked to me about it. They haven't consulted me, Uh, it's fine that they did it, they attach it to some other commentary that was outside, what would I would normally have hoped for just because it got into a partisan angle. And in my world, I'm very much a non-partisan, Uh, neutral, independent public servant who isn't attached to any particular political perspective and cannot be. But he got published there, and it went wild. And then I put it on one of my social media platforms. And so far between the English and the French versions, it's had over 60,000 views, which I just, you know, if you told me that 600, people might find it interesting, I would have been surprised. But it's, and that's just off that one platform, it's had over 60,000. And I suspect that it's had a similar number on the others. And I think it was, it was validating in a way. But more what I felt really was, I'm glad that I seem to have made it easier for some people to talk about these issues, because the reactions just been overwhelming. And some of the most moving separate from the people who are in their 40s 50s and 60s who are saying, I'm now going to go talk to my partner for the very first time about this, or I'm now going to have conversations with my children that I've always suppressed having because it was just too painful. But other people who also said, I had no idea, and I'm going to actually look for these things now. And I think that just profoundly humbling. I'm, I marvel at the alchemy that is taking place, these acts that were committed out of ignorance or malice, that are transforming themselves into the catalysts for new conversations and change. And I take a certain amount of Glee out of watching that alchemy, perform itself.
 
Shawna  11:57
it is a good feeling, isn't it? It is my show, as it relates to the what you're experiencing, even though they're different platforms, different, you know, sort of situations, I have to say one of the most validating things or fulfilling things is to see conversations really begin.

Daniel  12:15
Hmm

Carmen  12:16
So I would consider myself a little bit, you know, social media savvy. What was interesting for me is I had a little bit of, I don't think that anxiety is the right word. But I definitely had some feelings when this was picked up online. Like, I remember seeing it on Twitter first. And my first instinct was what are they going to say about you? You know, like, because I think you you in parts of your letter, you break down the five possible responses, I think it is to your story. And for me, I had this fear that Oh, here we go. Like you being so vulnerable, you being so open you being so very just real with people about your experiences, one of my biggest fears was they're going to choose, you know, one of the options that you lay out in your letter and saying that this didn't happen, or why can't you just be grateful that you live in a country like Canada or bla bla bla, and I think out of the literally 1000s of responses that I have seen because I you know, have just been scrolling through and keeping an eye on it. Just I've seen mostly positive, I think I've only seen like less than 10 reactions, which I would describe as non-supportive or challenging of the letter that you write. And so for me that was like, I think because I'm also mixed being your kid. Haha, I'm also mixed, seeing those responses, like, it gave me a little bit of hope it felt affirming that, okay, there are a lot of people who are willing to have these conversations, even if they're uncomfortable, and their immediate gut reaction is not to deny or discredit or trying to erase the narrative that you're presenting.

Daniel  13:50
But there's something to that. And there was a deliberate reason that I put the five categories there, which is I'm not going to let people off the hook. Yeah, by, you know, doing one thing and then claiming another and so like, Listen, if you want to be in the denial category, or if you want to be in the category of saying, well, that's just the price that you have to pay, if you want to live in this country, then fine. But that answers that initial question is does racism exist in any significant stance today? And you can't own what people's reactions are, but you can have them accurately described, and you can make it difficult or impossible for people to hide from that. And to me,

Carmen  14:36
Yeah

Daniel 14:37
That was an important part of it. 

Carmen  14:38
Yeah. Well, I feel like it kind of it triggers like a question of accountability. 

Daniel  14:41
Yeah

Carmen  14:42
It's like you can, okay, like, it's not that okay, you can be racist, but if you're going to be standing there at least acknowledge that you're, you're standing in a spot of being a race

Daniel  14:50
Well, and for other people to see that. Right, like so. 

Carmen 14:54
Yeah.

Shawna  14:55
What I think is interesting is that many different definitions that people hold for racism.

Carmen  15:01
Hmm

Shawna   15:02
A lot of people consider racism to be only those overt acts, not the microaggressions. 

Daniel  15:07
Hmm

Shawna  15:08
Not the systemic things, you know, not these, what seems like little things to other people, which is included in your five responses. 

Daniel  15:22
Hmm

Shawna  15:23
In fact, if we could just take a moment I'd like to sit read with these five responses are. At the end of his letter, Daniel really spells out what he predicts people might think of this or how they might see this, and it says this, there are only five possible reactions to my story and others like it, if you just count the sometimes attractive option of simply ignoring it altogether. One of these must be true. One: I have invented it all, or deliberately exaggerated it meaning that no response is warranted two; it did happen to me. But it was just my bad luck, because it didn't happen to anyone else. Or it happened to so few people that only individual and exceptional responses are required. Three, these things did happen. But I have misinterpreted innocent or benign actions incorrectly and should not have understood them to be malicious or detrimental. As a result, I am the one who needs remediation four; these things did happen. But people like me need to understand that that is just the price you have to pay if you want to enjoy the benefits that this country has to offer. or five, my story is not only true, but it is representative of those of many other Canadians. And this scenario, my story and those of everyone else who has had a similar experience, deserve to be listened to believed and acted upon in accordance with what we claim as Canadian values. I think that it's important to really spell out those five possibilities. Because me being the person that I am, of course, I'm sitting there reading this, I bet I can find a sixth one, let me think about, you know, like I challenged myself, because I feel like we would find that there are others who share this experience. For me, I was trying to think of that sixth or seventh response only because I think I'm so used to being on guard and trying to already predict how people are going to react to things because I feel like I have to have this armor or this defense ready to go at all times. 

Carmen  17:12
Hmm

Shawna  17:13
You know?

Carmen  17:14
Hmm

Daniel  17:15
Yeah. But I think you know, one of the things is they say, I did a whole series of media interviews before Christmas, and a number of times I got asked the question, well, was it hard to write it down? And my answer was not nearly as hard as living it. And I think that one of the things that I've got in the commentary, and I've had 1000s of responses, and again, probably three quarters to 80% of them being people who have very similar experiences. And I've tried to respond to as many as I could. And I reminded people that you've already lived the hardest part of this, you've already experienced all of these things that you would describe. And well, we sometimes sort of suppress or ignore or move on from what those things are for a whole host of reasons. The cost and the pain of them is already there. And so you know, stepping forward, and actually saying something about it and doing something about it. That is maybe different than what people have done before is actually not as hard as having lived it in the first place.

Shawna  18:24
It's pretty good point to.

Carmen 18:26
Hmm

Shawna  18:27
Well, is it okay, if we talk about a few of these experiences?

Daniel  18:30
For sure. 

Shawna  18:31
Okay, because really, folks, there's so many, I'm going to include the link because I think everybody should read this. And, you know, for those of you who are going to read this and relate to it, you know, these are things that maybe will bring to light things you haven't considered about someone that is experiencing similar things, but not exactly like yours. And then for people who really haven't had these experiences, it gives you something to think about and, and help you to have those hard conversations with others because it gives that perspective. But just a couple of things that I wanted to ask you about in particular, the first one is about the name calling. 

Daniel  19:07
Hmm

Shawna  19:08
I'm no stranger to this, you know, been called Oreo and all kinds of, you know, half breed and mulatto and mulatto. And we'll talk about that I'm going to come back to that one in a second. But, you know, you mentioned having been called a chink, several 1000 times in your lifetime.

Daniel  19:28
Yeah.

Shawna  19:29
You know, and I grew up with this old adage, you know, sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt this whole word, let it roll off your back.

Daniel  19:37
Yeah

Shawna  19:38
That sort of thing. But the truth is, like words hurt. And I just wondered, as you said, the hardest part is living through this. But how did you manage when you were a child hearing this? And then what's that, like, as you've gotten older, and either thinking back on it or any of the slides that you hear as an adult? Can you talk about that a little bit?

Daniel  19:57
Yeah, I think stubbornness is a big part of it. And that's unfortunate because not everyone stubborn when you're sort of a child and and listen, there are lots of other children who went through this. So my story's in no way shape or form unique. And that's actually part of the essence of the story is that these things happen to a lot of different people. But if stubbornness, the willingness to, and the ability to at the age of seven, or eight or 15, or whatever age it is, to defy what is a powerful and repetitive narrative about you and your place and your meaning, and your value, in your classroom, on your hockey team, in your church, in your wherever it is, is, what's necessary to succeed. Just everything we understand about statistics shows that it has to degrade what people's outcomes are in far too many instances. And I think a big chunk of it was pure stubbornness, Uh, more than than anything else. But they also think, to just a willingness or an ability to see through what I thought my value was, what I thought I was worth, and where I was able to go. And I think that that was at the core of it, because you don't have a whole lot of tools, when you're eight years old, to understand what these things are. And, you know, my eight years old was back in the early 70s. And, you know, there were no podcasts like this, there were no movements or things in many places in Canada anyway, about dealing with racism, the concept of systemic racism would have been laughed off. And so there wasn't a whole lot of support at that point in time. So you really had to find it within yourself. And I don't say that in any way, shape, or form, saying that if everybody were just stronger, they, you know, be able to just get past it far from it. The sad thing is too many people had too many things diminished, because they were just normal people who succumb to what the environment said about them.

Carmen  22:27
You know, this kind of makes me think a little bit about representation, because we talk a little bit on the show quite a bit actually about representation. And not necessarily, you know, being ethnically ambiguous, being mixed. Like it's hard to look places and see representation. And I kind of hear that and what you're saying. But that also makes me want to ask you, do you think that you made a conscious choice to give me and my brother, access to more freedom, when we were trying to figure out what our identities were like, I remember when we were little, you use the word stereotypes a lot. 

Daniel  23:08
Hmm

Carmen  23:09
So like Cinderella, for instance. You know, for listeners, I wasn't allowed to watch Cinderella for a little while, because both my parents called it a stereotype about women and said that, you know, like a woman needing to find a man and things like that it's a stereotype. But also with movies like Peter Pan, for instance, and their depiction of indigenous peoples, we weren't allowed to watch that. But do you think that was there a conscious choice at some point to kind of be protective of how my brother and I could seek out our identities? Or like, was that even a conversation or?

Daniel  23:41
Uh. and I have to actually remind myself to answer in English. 

Shawna  23:49
Hahaha, you don’t want the French to come out and I think it would be so funny hahaha

Carmen  23:54
No because I think you do not need to double it hahaha

Daniel  24:55
Hahaha, yeah.  So I think I'll just back up a little bit. Uh, because I think this is relevant to the answer. One of the things that I was completely and totally on my own on was what it meant to be mixed race. And so, uh, when I had racist encounters, that was never once because I was as European by sort of genetic ancestry as I was Chinese, it was always the Chinese part. And it's interesting, because I find if people who are of Chinese ancestry asked if I'm Chinese, and then often people who, especially if I don't know them very well, who are ethnically European, or genetically European ancestry, asked me if I'm Chinese. What's interesting about it, one is about inclusion. And one is about exclusion. Same question, but invariably, where the conversations go, is directions of exclusion versus inclusion. And if I'm asked if I'm Chinese, by A person of European genetic ancestry, I can probably count on the fingers of one hand, the conversation that followed about how we related to each other on the basis of that half of my ancestry, it's always exclusively on the other part of the, of the ancestry. And I think, again, you know, when you're eight years old, or you're six years old, and you come home and you ask your parents, like, you know, what does it mean to be Chink or when you're supposed to put down your nationality on your form, and everybody's told you or your nationality is Chinese, and you're trying to figure these things out? I wasn't in an environment where I had people who were familiar with those things. And it was statistically infinitely less likely to to find people at that stage like it was, you know, we're just I was born in 1965. And, you know, interracial marriages were not a very common thing at that point in time. And so it wasn't like you had a whole host of, of peers. And so I think one of the conscious decisions I made when we were having children, is that I would provide a vocabulary and a space to have that conversation. I wasn't of the view that there was any particular view that had to be held by either Carmen or Dylan about how they would actually see these things. But they needed the space, they needed the vocabulary, they needed to be a conversation, they needed to know that they had questions, that it was an open door to have that conversation, and not just sort of, you know, if you have any questions, come talk to me, otherwise, I'm doing other things, but to actually create the space to have that conversation and to explore it. But always from the perspective, I didn't have the answer. I couldn't tell them, what it meant to be who they were, either in terms of race, or religious view, or career professions or anything else. But I could be there to offer what I knew what I had experienced, and I could make it a safe topic, and maybe even a desirable topic to explore. And I think that was the way that I handled that, and so did their mother. 

Shawna  27:33
Hmm. 

Carmen  27:34
Yeah, I think what's interesting too, is mom like mom is Caucasian. But like, Mom has never shied away from at least in my experience calling things out. Like, I remember mom being like, that's racist. I think mom was the one to see that teacher. So when I was like five, or six, one of my teachers showed up in a Halloween costume. I think I've talked about this before, on the show. So excuse me, listeners, if you've heard it already, but one of my teachers showed up in a bit of a caricature of a costume, like a fake Chinese dress. And I think there were chopsticks in her hair. And she had painted on almond shaped eyes onto herself. And I think my mom was the one to flat out be like, that is racist. There's no two ways about it. That's racist. And I think it's interesting because like, mom never shied away from these conversations, either. It wasn't like, Oh, this was a conversation I could have with one parent, instead of the other. This was a conversation in which I only felt safe and comfortable or that only one parent would get it. So I think you and mom must have had a lot of conversations before you're me and my brother came along, because I don't know. Like, it was interesting to be able to just constantly talk about it. I don't remember having one first conversation about race in our home. Like we could talk about it and just be open. And even if we didn't consciously think, Oh, this is a conversation about race, we could just kind of have any conversation and like it would dip into it. You know.
Daniel  28:59
Hmm

Shawna  29:00
I'm really glad you brought that up, Carmen, because actually, Daniel, that was going to be one of my questions to what I keep hearing come up, even in our, you know, discussion today, is this theme of the importance of having those conversations, I'm in an interracial marriage to my husband is white. I am not, we had so many conversations before marriage, but not necessarily in the context of how we would handle these things with our children. But every single time I see this depiction of, you know, an interracial couple, or a multiracial family. It just brings me so much joy, because it's like, thank you people for normalizing what is normal. 

Carmen  29:41 
Yeah

Daniel  29:42
Yeah

Shawna  29:43
And so, I got a sense of happiness, just to see that and we did talk about that, you know, we we actually had to talk through some hard times with family members who did not want us to marry 

Daniel  29:56
Hmm, yeah

Shawna  29:57
In fact, one of the reasons given from one family member in particular wasn't even because of us. Well, I mean, I think like it boiled down to that, but the reason given was, what about your kids? Think about your kids what's gonna happen to them? Meanwhile, my kids look as 

Daniel  30:12
Yeah 

Shawna  30:13
White is white. Like, they both feel like I'm like, Where's me in this I project? You know, but uh, that was that was the big concern about your kids. And I hadn't even planned to bring this up. But since we've gotten here, there was a part that you had written about someone asking why would you want your kids to be mongrels? 

Daniel  30:31
Yeah

Shawna  30:32
Uh

Daniel  30:33
Yo, yeah, like, and I couldn't even tell you how many times I've had that

Shawna  30:36
It blows my mom, but then

Daniel  30:39
Total strangers, right, like total strangers, like, you know, people that you'd be talking to, like, you know, number one, you kind of select your friends on a basis where you're you hope they're not gonna say bitterly hurtful things on a regular basis. And so, you know, you tend to not have friends say those things. So these are mostly people that I either don't know, at all or no, you know, not very well. So you just imagine, you know, just going up to somebody that you'd hardly ever met and say, you know, you don't seem very bright. I wonder, you know, if your children are gonna have x, y, z issues, like people would punch you in the mouth. Have you said that, but this has happened multiple, multiple times. And I'm talking about the use of the word mongrel, like, the other ones sort of are exponentially more than that. But you know, it is it is stunning. But I also think, too, it's convenient Dodge, because I've had the same conversations with people, but what will your children be prospectively? Right? Uhm

Shawna  31:42
I don't even know. 

Daniel  31:43
Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah. But if if you think about it, like, let's actually just get serious, you're talking about me? Right? You're You're purporting to be protective. Uhm, But really, what you're saying is, I am the problem, right? Because someone says children would be fine. If I weren't the parent. And it's. So let's forget about the conversation actually being about the children, let's actually have the conversation that's really happening here. And it goes back to why put the five categories out, like listen, you can put yourself in any one of those categories. But if you refuse to, I'm gonna put you in one of them based solely on the evidence and the facts. 

Carmen 32:29
Yeah. 
Daniel  32:30
And you might not like it, but I'm not gonna let you run away from that.

Shawna  32:33
You know, can we go back to one one thing, we were talking about terms earlier, and I and I just wanted to switch gears slightly, only because sometimes, in our talks, Carmen, and I compare our experiences in the US versus in Canada, because there are a lot of things that are similar, but there are these, you know, naturally, there are things that are a little bit different. One of the things that you described was a situation where your sister, First Nations person was called the mulatto. I just wondered how it is that those words were applied to your sister?

Daniel  33:07
Yeah, well, so first of all, I was going to get called mulatto, but the N word was applied to my sister that simply I think goes to the level of understanding about just about anything of the people that were calling her that word, it was a word that they knew that was hurtful, and that was related to color. And what was interesting about it is that all they knew about it, and they actually wouldn't have known these were children, I suspect that they wouldn't have known or understood anything of the history of that word, or even sort of racially, what that applied to, or that they would have understood anything of a binary world of what they would have understood as being white, and sort of everything else that would fall into the category of the N word with me be some exceptions around East Asian people, in particular, Chinese and Japanese, I think if you got to India, or whatever, they probably would have applied just the same word. And I think it was that level of ignorance and malice combined, that got that. But when I got called the mulatto was at the United Nations at an event in Geneva by a national representative of another government in open session, as I was the CO lead of the government of Canada's delegation. And what was the topic, racial discrimination. It's like if you just sort of want to bring all of the ironies together, and I turned to my first nation’s colleague and friend who was sitting beside me, and the delegate from the country involved, so they see you brought to mulattos with you is what he said. And I turned and he said to my friend, so and so I said, I think he means the two of us. This is in an open session at the United Did Nations in Geneva racial discrimination? I guess, in part, there's a couple of things to this. And it's partly why I wrote it down in the letter and partly why I wrote the letter in the first place. I'm sort of thinking about it with some humor. Now that I mean, the humor isn't real humor, the humor is like, you can't believe that somebody would actually do this in open in that setting, all the ironies of it, but also, right, like this horrifies other people, but it's also just part of daily life for so many other people, which doesn't make it right, which doesn't make it anything else. But what's interesting, is there were several 100 people in that room, and not a single person got up to say anything. Right, not a single one. And I think that that's one of the interesting parts of that story, too. 
Shawna  35:57
You know, I think it goes back again, Daniel, to we need to educate ourselves and be prepared for what is the appropriate way to handle these things, or to say these things. And if you're not sure to also have created a climate, where it's safe to ask questions, you know, like I think people are afraid to ask, so they just say or they don't say anything, because ignoring it is feels like a safe option. But it doesn't help anybody else

Daniel  36:24
Know. And it's an interesting question, too, as to why in those instances, I mean, where I was there, I was co-head of a national delegation. So I had some responses, the responsibilities and well beyond the personal, but in aspects of our personal life. And one of the questions is, why do we focus so much on wanting to find the polite, non-controversial, educated, happy way of telling people that you have just done something that's horrifically wrong, that would, in any number of other circumstances carry grave grave consequences? And this, I'm not saying that people should be sort of wildly abrasive and difficult at every single instance, they see that I think, would be counterproductive. But it's fascinating to me how so many of us, our starting point is how do we keep everything happy and safe, but change behaviors that are horrifically wrong? 

Shawna  37:27
So I really want to talk to this, that question comes up a lot, like why are we tiptoeing around this? Why are we being careful? These are things that hurt people, this should be addressed. Now, I have two schools of thought on this. And this is something that I wrestle with within, but I, I'm still apt to lean in one direction, or the other. The first is I agree, right? Like, if if I want to teach my kids something, I don't sit them down and explain the mechanics of a stove and why it's hot, and why they shouldn't place their hands on it. No, my kids reaching for the stove, what do I do, I smack the hand and say no. And then I might say, That's hot. And then one day, they'll do it, and then it will realize I was right, and they'll never do it again, okay, like something like that. We stop it in its tracks, because it's hurtful, it could cause harm, and we want to do whatever we have to do to protect them. And it doesn't mean always having a sweet, quiet conversation. On the flip side, in order to teach someone or coach someone, they have to be coachable. So if they aren't, if they are not culturally competent, or add a certain level of cultural competency to have such a direct conversation, psychologically, they shut down, so you end up in the same place. Whereas if you approach things a little bit more diplomatically, or through this a certain kind of tone or conversation, it may seem like coddling, but if you want this to be an effective conversation, in my opinion, to some extent, you do have to, you know, provide that psychological safety. I see it all the time on both perspectives where people are extremely frustrated, because what is happening, or what is being said or done, is hurtful. But on the other hand, on the other side, if we really want people to learn and change, you have to meet them where they are, and bring them along with you.

Carmen  39:14
Yeah, and I think for me, like it's a combination of empathy, energy and education. Like, there's a lot of Rachel Cargill, she does some interesting stuff on Instagram. But I think this is also an opportunity to look at the role of allies, especially if it's like person to person. So say one person's Person A says I mean, a, person B, Person B is offended, and rightfully so. I think that's an opportunity for, you know, we use the word allies for colleagues, peers, whatever to kind of step in, and maybe use their empathy, education and energy in that situation. So Person B doesn't have to do that full kind of equation on their own. So for instance, I work in a field that's very indigenous focused and part of my literal mandate is to work on public education, and so I do these things where I Mythbusters. So I do little like Instagram stories where, you know, here's a common myth, here's why it's not true. And I'll do that at trade shows, I'll do that kind of in, in public settings. And I think that's one space where like education and energy, and empathy kind of come together to maybe dispel myths and create a situation in which there's, people can talk, but no one person in the conversation is actually having to do the labor that's kind of harmful to their own identity, if that makes sense.

Daniel  40:31
You know, this is where my world is a little bit different. Again, I don't come to these conversations is an equal in the hierarchy, I come to it from sitting at the very, very, very top of that hierarchy. But there's a couple of other elements that and I suspect you're doing this sounds like you are, but like, I always like to think about explicitly. You know, we worry about the person shutting down who is doing the wrong thing? Well, what about the cost that the victim was absorbing? And how do we make it clear that our accounting isn't just Well, you're gonna have to keep absorbing this until this other person finally gets it. And so I think, you know, a critical step is the one that you describe, which is, you know, publicly, you handle it in a way that sort of doesn't make it longer and harder and less possible to get a solution, then you follow up, as you described, with the harder conversation behind the scenes. But I also think to that, there's a couple of other parts that I like to think about on that front, which is to be very aware of, what is the person who feels aggrieved here? Or is maybe the victim of what's happening? What messages are they taking about my accounting of this, because if this is the equivalent of they'll take out your credit card rack up whatever emotional reaction bill they want on it, and hand it back to you to pay. And then if they want to do it again, next week, it'll be the same thing. But I promise it'll only be $99 a lead to it next time instead of 100. This isn't a very good option. And I think it means sort of being honest about where we're having those accountings and how we're doing them and that we're paying attention to them. But I think the next part is that that person has to actually address it privately with and maybe they have to do it publicly, too. But at a minimum, if it's individual, I think if we're not going to be sending the messages that that accounting will always accrue more negatively to the aggrieved. There has to be that conversation with somebody who says, Listen, I get that this is a problem, I get that I'm having this impact. And this isn't just about race, this goes to gender issues, this goes to ablest issues, it goes to a whole bunch of others, it goes to how we deal with harassment, complaints in the workplace, and the way our systems are set up. And because you know, the complaint systems are often based on, you know, your judicial approaches to dealing with these things. The accounting is almost always very difficult for the person who is aggrieved, because they will continue to be aggrieved until the person creating that harm is found to whatever standard they are to have done so. And then something will happen, but usually not a reconciliation, or restitution, at best, a stopping of the individuals taking the credit card out every week to do whatever they want with it, and then returning with a bill to the legitimate holder. And I think when I look at these things, from where I sit in the system, I think it applies to anybody in the leadership position, that accounting and how we're treating it. And what we're seeing about it is critically important. Because I think the one of the worst things that happens and you know, many people have had this experience is not so much the attack or the incident that happens. It's the silence that surrounds it. And I've always sort of remember Martin Luther King Jr's words, you know, in the end, it's not the slings and arrows I think, was the, the specific quote that will remember the most of our enemies that will remember the most it was the silence of our friends. And, and to me, that is one of the pieces that I always tried to remember in those circumstances. And I do not claim to have figured it out perfectly. But that's where I like to concentrate an awful lot of my effort.

Shawna  44:56
Now, I think that you raised some very, very important points. And it's true. I think that's why I do wrestle with it right. Like, I know how important it is to shut those things down. But I think in terms of providing that psychological safety for the person who has given the offensive remark, or whatever it was, it's not, at least for me, and the way that I'm trying to help, it isn't to excuse the behavior, or to allow them to continue to racking up those debts. It's just to keep that needle moving right, with the understanding that everybody moves at a different pace. With just what we see happening specifically in the US these days, it makes you wonder, are we seeing the results of people not standing up people in positions that should have shut things down sooner? Are we seeing the final death throes of racism? Is there hope going forward? I mean, I think that we all agree that there is some hope, right, like there, there's things that we can do, we can continue talking, we can continue to help educate people. But I just wonder what you think about this?

Daniel  46:09
Well, I mean, I'll speak to the Canadian experience, particularly then maybe sort of offered some views on sort of a broader context across North America. I mean, if you look historically, where, well, Canada and the US are, compared to any number of other points in human history, these are remarkable experiments, to enormously successful, strong countries that have achieved amazing things that are built on the very basis that the rest of the world rejected. Well, other countries around the world, were saying that you had to have sort of as ethnically linguistically geographically, homogenous a entity as possible to succeed. Here were these countries that rejected that notion at the outset. And not perfectly, not fully did they reject those things. But the underlying logic was that they rejected that notion, and opened up their arms to people from all around the world. And again, not fully. There are many sort of awful instances and those histories of where that was incomplete. But compared to what the experience was, in so many other countries took a very different path, and have achieved remarkable things with that and continue to grow. And so my birth father was not able to enter this country, because the exclusion acts were still in place at the time of his birth, my biological grandfather paid the $500 head tax, which is an absolute fortune, in those timeframes, where other members of my family in the adopted side were given land, that was taken away from other members of my family who are indigenous. So there is a broad range of histories and experiences there. But today, those things are radically different. I can be a deputy minister in the Government of Canada today. And it is actually not even something that is particularly noteworthy people like me can own property anywhere can sort of be part of any profession that they want. And all of those things, there is still a lot of work to be done, that's for sure. But we have come enormous distances, and all the things I just said similar things could be pointed to in the US as well. So I think there's enormous hope there. But there is still work to do. And I think you know, when you talk about the issue of what are we when you start looking at 300, and whatever million people or 38 million people in Canada, you're going to have a full spectrum. And I think as in many different circumstances, you'll have a part of the spectrum that actually sees all of those things that the vast majority would see as progress as being threatening and maybe existentially threatening, and they will react to that in sometimes very powerful ways. I think there'll be other people that will find it hard to adapt to the change, but don't see it as existentially threatening, necessarily. But I do think that if we've learned anything in this country, Canada, in the last while and I'll leave it to those in the US to ask the same question and come to their conclusions on it. I think that we have learned in Canada, that there are at least some segments of the population where we're going to have to do an awful lot more work, to understand what they're prepared to do, where they're prepared to go and how It is that they need to be dealt with. We've had some very serious incidents in Canada, some attacks on some groups have increased by as much as eight or 900%, since the beginning of the COVID period, and some of those quite violent attacks. And I think that that's a very different situation to deal with, than the people who use outdated language or who may be engaged in stereotypes in ways that are inappropriate, but probably teachable, and probably not anathema to them in terms of learning to do something different and see things differently. But there is a component that is expressing itself through violence in many instances that we are going to have to deal with, I think in in ways that we hadn't thought about before, it's not just going to go away. It's not just something that he is, on the fringes, it's something that is found voice, and more importantly, found to action, in too many instances.


Shawna  51:08
Agreed. Thinking about where we are now and you know what was going on? During the time of Rex Murphy's article? It feels like we've kind of come full circle here to answer the questions. This question was still around, really? So I guess we can kind of answer it that way, too. 

Daniel  51:26
Yeah. 

Shawna  51:27
Have you heard from him directly? Since?

Daniel  51:33
No, and I don't know that I will. And I'm not expecting or even hoping for one. He asked the question, the answer is out there. I'm not sure that it was really him that needed to be persuaded. Or to have the space to tell these stories. I've had 1000s of responses. And again, people saying that this is this is my story, and 1000s, or hundreds, at least of others who have said, Listen, I had no idea that this was the experience for so many other people in this country. And I think that in and of itself, that's the desired outcome in the sense.

Carmen  52:13
And I think on a macro level, you have put the work in to contribute to other people's education here, like going back to the concept of energy, education and empathy, like the labor you put into putting this out there. I mean, I want to use the word trauma, I don't know how you feel about that word, but the instances that you have lived, recalling those, putting them on paper, numbering them recalling all of those things altogether, putting this together, so other people can read like that is a lot of labor to do, but I think it was validating it was assuring them that they are not alone in their experiences, that they're not a one off that what they experienced was racism, that it was traumatic. And for the people who hadn't experienced these things, who came at it with an open mind and were willing to learn, they learned a little bit more about the country that they live in, and the fabrics of our society, and that they can contribute to making sure this doesn't continue on now and 10 years from now. 50 years from now.
 
Daniel  53:09
Hmm, well, I hope so. I mean, it's still not easy. The math, I come up with a number of over 10,000 incidents, that number is probably very, very, very conservative. If you think about a school bus ride, there were these two kids on the school bus who would start the second that I would get on and they would just go nonstop till the time we got to school. So if it's a 25 minute ride, and just conservatively, you say they say two things a minute, and it wasn't two things, and then it was six things a minute, then that's 50 each. So that's 100 on the right to school, and then there's another 100 On the way back. So there's 200. So that's 1000 a week. Now, let's just for interest sake, say we cut that back by half, just in case, you know, they took a break or whatever else and he cut it in half again, just super-duper conservative. So well now you're 250 a week. Now we're not talking about at school, we're not talking about at lunch, we're not talking about recess, we're not talking about playing hockey, we're not talking about walking around the neighborhood. But there's 250 for the week, and you multiply that by 40 times your weeks of the school year. So you're at 10,000, right that just school bus rides. And when you actually do the math of it, it starts to hit and I think that was one of the more surprising moments. And you start realizing what the scale of these things and you just think about the line takes 10,000 hours to get good at anything. So you know, you talked earlier about the question of like, how do you get through things as a child and so on. Like, just just imagine the number of hours spent dealing with racism versus the number of hours it would take to become a concert violinist.

Shawna  54:56
I think you should do a TED talk. I'd have to nominate you for this. Wow. Well, this has been such an incredibly rich conversation, and I can't thank you enough for coming on. As we come to a close, I wanted to ask you, if there's anything else that you just want folks to know.

Daniel  55:16
No, I just, if people read the letter and find something useful in it from their perspective, then fantastic. It's about having conversations, as we talked about today. And if I'm able to add to that conversation, then Fantastic. 

Shawna  55:34
Well, Daniel, thank you so much. It's been an honor having you on the show, and I so appreciate your willingness to be open and share your story and your thoughts and insights as it pertains to identity and what we face every day when it comes to race and ethnicity. Whether folks understand it or not, that it is real, and it's a thing to consider. So thanks again.

Daniel  55:57
Thank you

Shawna  55:58
Be well and just keep on keeping on appreciate your contributions to these conversations.

Daniel  56:04
Well, I keep on doing the great work on the show. I love it.

Shawna 56:07
Thank you. All right. Okay, take care.

Daniel 56:10
Bye for now.

Intro 56:18
You've been listening to our true colors.