Unwrapping the Gift of Dialogue: Race Talk with Meredith and Cindy

How was the topic of race handled in your household? Something you've always discussed or an area that typically went untouched? 

Meredith and Cindy Palomo are a couple living in the Kansas City area. They recently paused a three-year endeavor as foster parents. They're lucky to have three amazing daughters, aged 20, 17, and 3. They have a passion for sharing what they know about trauma-informed care, and have a deep belief that every child deserves to grow up with a connection to their roots, biological and otherwise.

Meredith Palomo and Lauren Wiggins are sisters and grew up in the suburbs of Kansas City. Now mothers, each living in a city with a rich activist culture, they've started grappling again with what it means to be bi-racial, black, and women and what they hope to share with their children about their experiences.

On this episode of OTC, these wonderful women come together to discuss these experiences and their plans for bringing up their children after having reflected on their own childhoods.

If this is your first time with OTC, check out EPISODE 1: START HERE for more background on the show.

Our True Colors is sponsored by True Culture Coaching & Consulting. Head to our website to find out how True Culture Coaching and Consulting can support you and your organization, and subscribe to our LinkedIn Newsletter, The Culture Clinic, for more great content. You can find us at truecultureconsulting.com where you can also contact us to schedule a free consultation.

Transcript

Intro  00:04
Welcome to our True Colors hosted by Shawna Gann. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial and ethnic Enigma and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in. 

Shawna  00:20
Hello, hello, everyone and welcome to another episode of OTC on this episode Carmen is joining me for an interview with a lovely family to talk about identity journeys that start a little bit later. Actually, I guess the journey itself starts early, but the discussion is really what we're focusing on this time. Joining us will be Meredith Palomo.

Meredith  00:43
I'm Meredith Palumbo. I'm 33 years old. I'm pretty sure I live in Kansas City, Kansas. In the Kansas City area pretty much my whole life. I like it a lot. Here I am I married to a wonderful woman named Cindy. We have three daughters. Our oldest is 20. We have a middle daughter who's 17. And then our youngest is just recently turned three. I work for a FinTech company has an organizational development specialist. So that's fun, and like interested in this podcast and got drawn to it because I am biracial mixed, whatever you want to say black and white. And you know just recently been kind of seeking some community around that identity and diving in and learning more about others experiences.

Shawna  01:28
And Meredith's wife, Cindy.

Cindy  01:31
Hi, everyone. My name is Cindy Palumbo. I'm 48 years old. I'm pretty sure of that. I'm married to Meredith and like she said previously, we have three wonderful daughters. I grew up in a small town in Missouri called knob noster, population 2500 and lived in the Kansas City area for over 20 years. I'm really excited about doing this program with everyone and I hope to gain a lot more knowledge and also help anyone out there.

Shawna  02:06
And also Meredith's sister, Lauren.

Lauren  02:10
My name is Lauren, I live in St. Louis, Missouri. I'm a bridal consultant here, which I absolutely love. And I am married to a restaurant tour. We have three restaurants now here in St. Louis. And we also have a two year old son. 

Shawna  02:27
This was such a great conversation that I'm so excited to share it with you really because it focuses on conversation well, specifically communication within families as it pertains to your identity. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.
Welcome, everyone. I am so happy to have with me, Carmen this week. She's joining for this interview. Hi, Carmen.

Carmen  02:56
Hello Shawna, how are you doing?

Shawna  02:58
I'm doing great. I am really excited about our guests. I have gotten a chance to speak with Meredith before. So we'll meet her in just a little bit. And joining her is her sister Lauren, and also her wife Cindy. So hi, Meredith. 

Meredith  03:12
Hi?

Shawna  03:13
Hey, one of the things that we talked about when we met before was this new interest or maybe a renewed interest in your identity as you came into Parenthood. So could you describe your family what it is like for you being a parent and what that means for you with your identity?

Meredith  03:34
It's kind of interesting as I try to describe our family to people who do we don't know? Well, because it's started all sort of topsy turvy. My wife and I started our parenting journey as foster parents of teenage girls. So we kind of skipped all of the little stuff like, you know, younger age stuff, right into my first foster daughter was 16 when she came to us, so that was definitely a different way to start our parenting journey. And actually, I'm very glad we started that way. So we've got two older girls who came to us via foster care. And then we have our youngest daughter, who is ours biologically or I guess technically mine biologically, who's three so and our two oldest girls are black, our youngest daughter is half white, a quarter black and a quarter Hawaiian. So when we are all out and about together or any combination of us are out and about, it definitely feels. I don't know, it feels like a very renewed sense of what I felt like when I was younger, of like, what do people think is going on here? Are people noticing that we look different? You know, oddly, people don't ask a lot, which is definitely different. When I was younger people used to constantly ask me, what are you? What are your parents? Where are you from? And I don't know if it's because they're visibly like Kids with us or something that people don't want to approach the whole family, I don't know, we do see some sideways glances or whatever. So it's really, it's important to me knowing that we're raising this, you know, just kind of mixed up family that we're able to help our daughters develop a really strong sense of what their identity is, and feel confident in that whatever, you know, however, they decide to identify or, you know, even as that shifts as they get older, that they can kind of be comfortable with that and be out in the world and not feel uncomfortable the way I feel like I did sometimes.

Shawna  05:35
Thank you so much. I have some questions for you. But before I get to that, Lauren, I wanted to ask you to do the same because as I understand it, I think Lauren, when you became a parent, too, that's kind of when these discussions of what it was like for both of you growing up being biracial, and then what that means as parents and your families now, would you mind talking a little bit about your family?

Lauren  06:00
Yeah. Um, so Gosh, she got growing up, I like had to giggle a little bit, just because I think I had forgotten some of like, so much of what Meredith was referring to, of when we used to be out as a family when we were younger of people wondering like, what is going on here with a white dad and a black mom, and our oldest sister who is full black, and then the two of us mixed babies. Gosh, and even my friends when I was little, just asking me like, what's the deal with your family? Like, what about your older sister, she really your sister? Gosh, she got like, a lot of those memories came flooding back anyway, as now with my family being married to a white man, and my son looks just like his daddy. So blond hair, blue eyes and mercy, That boy is white god bless him. And yet something I think about, I think now as a mom is making sure that Anderson still feels connected to his black roots, and recognizes where he comes from and carries that with him, even though he very much presents to the world as a white boy. So I think more than anything, that's what I think about now is how, how do I guess incorporate blackness into his life in a way that feels meaningful and relatable, because it should feel relatable to him, which can like be a little bit of a challenge when I feel like so much of what was lacking in our upbringing, Meredith was like that connectedness to our black roots. So not only how do I relay those to Anderson, but how do I even like kind of unearth them within myself to then relay them to him.

Shawna  07:51
It sounds like both of you really are thinking about kind of incorporating your children making sure that they they have that peace, even like Lauren and your case, even if your your child doesn't look mixed or racially ambiguous in some way that would give someone the impression that he has black roots. That's the same with my children. I'm also married to a white man. And he's definitely, you know, fair with blond hair and blue eyes or blue eye. One blue eye. One brown. My favorite, that's why my children have you know, they, they've got blue eyes, green eyes. And then there's me. So I'm, you know, the odd one out in terms of the way they look. So no one ever gives them any glances. It was when they were much younger. And if they were with me, then it was different right than if they were with their father. So I can definitely appreciate that.

Carmen  08:51
I think listening to Lauren, and Meredith, it sounds like there's this element of additional layer hearing the both of you kind of begin talking about this as you became mothers, do you think that there was kind of a little bit more power related to your identity when it came to motherhood? And maybe that added a level of comfort and addressing your own identities and then, you know, to be able to pass on to your children? Do you think that? I mean, I guess a little counterfactual, but do you think that you would have had necessarily the same conversations or this same shift if it weren't for your journey into motherhood? 

Meredith  09:24
Hmm, that's a good question. Um, I don't know. I don't I don't know that I would feel that I necessarily feel more like a greater sense of power in relation to this as a mother, but I certainly feel more urgency, I think, to figure my shit out, I guess, so that I can have conversations that I'm proud of with my daughters. You know, I guess as Naomi gets older and as our older to kind of figure out who they are. I think that I spent a long time time just kind of thinking that Oh, like how I feel about my identity is just how I feel. And that's, that's all there is to it. And I felt very much alone. So it wasn't something that I didn't, or that I felt like, I should dive into. 

Carmen 10:16
Mm hmm. 

Meredith  10:17
And so, you know, now I'm, I feel like, oh, there are more people who have shared experiences with me. And I am trying to think about, okay, growing up, what would I have liked to be a little bit different.

Carmen 10:32
Right? 

Meredith  
And of course, you know, I'm super grateful for my upbringing, and, you know, all the strength from my parents and all the wonderful things they passed on to us. But you know, you always think about, okay, as a parent, what, what am I going to do, you know, that I wish I had, and I think that's really, what's driving it for me. And the more I think about that, in relation to my daughters, the more I think about it, just in relation to myself, and how I how can I find some? I don't want to say peace. That sounds very dramatic, but I don't know, a place of comfort. Where I feel confident, and I know who I am.

Carmen  11:09
Mm hmm. like more of a settled sense when it comes to your own identity. Maybe? 

Meredith  11:14
Yeah, yeah. And it's been funny, being married to Cindy, in a lot of ways, because she's hilarious. But also, because she's, she's Guamanian. Through and through, well, tomorrow. But people don't really identify Pacific Islanders very easily, where we live. So when we're out and about together, whether it's the two of us, or it's the two of us and Naomi, people speak Spanish to us a ton.

Carmen  11:43
Oh, really?

Meredith  11:44
Yeah. A whole lot.

Shawna  11:46
I so believe that. Coz that seems to be my story to like, whenever people can't figure it out, they default to Spanish.

Meredith  11:55
Yeah, like, it's like, there's like black and white, and then random, Latino people running around, like, the only options. So that's just, I don't know, it's given me kind of another extra layer to think about, like, how do I feel about my identity, in contrast to how other people perceive me, and that's, I feel like that's kind of the crux of it for me is a lot of it has been hinged on I want other people to perceive me as black, or for a while other people to perceive me as white. When really that's, I have no control over that. And it doesn't even matter anyways, it's what what I own and what I feel like I am.

Shawna  12:38
Right? I saw it coming back to this part. Really good. But first, I'm curious about you and Lauren growing up because something learn. There's something you said earlier that made me wonder about the differences maybe in the way you perceived your childhood? Would you say that you each had the same experiences growing up in terms of how you felt you were perceived? Meredith like what you said, there were times I wanted people to perceive me one way and then times I wanted people to perceive me another way, what were your experiences like growing up? And how did they compare?

Lauren  13:15
I think our experiences in a lot of ways were like very similar. And Meredith and I have really only recently started having conversations about that, which seems crazy. And but I mean, I think even that, in and of itself speaks to the way we talked about or didn't talk about race in our house even being a mixed race family that, yeah, Meredith, Meredith and I even Yeah, even having shared parents a shared upbringing, very similar experiences, never shared conversations about this until well into our adulthood. But I think, for the most part, both of us kind of feel like we were expected to like, suppress our blackness. I think some of that comes from a place of my mom, recognizing the like, potential hardships that we could face that she, if she could help us avoid it, of course, was trying to, so I certainly don't think it was coming from like a bad place. But I feel like a lot of the time our blackness and even like our, our mixed race identity was something that was like kind of swept under the rug a little bit. I at least certainly got the feeling that kind of like passing was the goal of like, proper English, listening to a certain type of music being, you know, put together in a certain way. That was, that was always kind of the expectation. I mean, what do you think Meredith?

Meredith 14:54
Yeah. I would agree with that. There's something in the phrasing of expectation that hung up on like, maybe not an expectation like genuinely thinking it was better, but maybe more of a hope. I'm just going along with you on

Lauren  15:09
I think that was only once.

Meredith  15:11
Yeah, just going along with that it would probably be easier, especially, you know, given the area we grew up in, you know, is very, very, very white. I think that it just was easier that way. I remember almost the only conversations that were had about being mixed was about how like, oh, like, mix kids are so beautiful. Like that was an okay conversation, which now I am deeply bothered by that. As if we're like, dolls or something like that. I feel it's a little dehumanizing. But that was almost the only conversation we had about being mixed was that there's nothing but positive things about it. You're so beautiful. You got great things from both of us. And then let's kind of move on. So I think in that respect, it was really, really similar for Lauren and I. But there are some, as we've, as we've talked just a little bit and, you know, like Lauren says, we haven't spent years talking about this. So there's a lot that I think we probably don't both know, but I think Lauren, just because she is darker than I am got more of the kind of blatant, let me call you the N word sort of stuff. Wow. And not to say that I didn't get any at all. But I don't think it was the frequency that Lauren did. I got a lot of I don't even really think of you as black. Which isn't that nice?

Shawna  16:44
Like you don't how do you respond to that?

Cindy  16:47
Yeah, it's like, awkward  

Carmen  16:50
Thank you? I'm not being objectified? Or I mean, committing violence against me today.

Meredith  16:56
Yeah, it was. It was almost so many kids said it to me in a way that sounded like,

Shawna 17:03
Like, that was the compliment. 

Meredith  17:05
Yeah Yeah. And almost relief from them. Like, oh, I don't have to worry about any of that horrible stuff. I might have said, 

Shawna 17:10
Mmmh

Meredith 17:11
Because you're just white, so it's fine.

Carmen  17:13
Like discounts them from any kind of accountability? 

Meredith  17:17
Yeah Yeah. And it's so funny, because when I when I think about the term white passing, I was I was thinking about this a couple days ago, because I read something that was really like triggering and upsetting to me on Twitter, which I should stop doing. But um, I have no self-control when it comes

Carmen 17:31
Me either.

Meredith  17:34
But I was just saying, I was like, you know, I think I spent a long time trying to pass as white. But when I go back and think about it, I never had anybody say to me, like, never expressed surprise that I was not white. People would say oh, I just think of you as white. But that's not the same as actually thinking that I'm white. 

Shawna 17:56
Mm hmm. 

Meredith 17:57
That's, you know, really, I wish you were white so that I could feel safe acting a certain way. Yeah. And so I think a lot about the term white passing, when it comes to racially ambiguous people, and I don't, there's something I'm still trying to figure out what it is about it. That bothers me. I feel like it's almost like it's another vestige of like, being excluded from anything at all. Like, I'm very obviously not white. Nobody's ever thought I was white. I think I would laugh in their face if they thought it was but but it's almost like, well, you're white passing. So you're not really part of the club? Or, you know, I don't know, 

Shawna  18:37
No, I hear you. And actually, some folks use the term white presenting, I think there can be a negative connotation to both phrases, both saying white passing, or white presenting, or even if not negative, just like you said, something triggering there. So back in the day to pass was really not just to say you could look like this, or you could be this or whatever it really was as a form of survival, pulling something over on someone. And assuming that identity and living that identity and totally denouncing any of your blackness or color, whatever your background is. And then to say that your white presenting can be misleading to say someone's white presenting just means like, they look like a white person, like my kids or like Lauren son, like they're, they're not just white, but they look that way. But to say that you're white presenting gives the impression that you are putting yourself forward that way, like this is how I'm trying to be perceived. So therefore, I'm presenting myself this way. And it's it's that's not really the way it's meant to be. But I have found in having conversations with people that both of those terms, both saying white passing or white presenting can lend themselves to this sort of trickery, which there are studies actually out there that show that people aren't as trusting of racially ambiguous people because they feel like they're being tricked.

Meredith 19:59
They're like, I don't know, what do we do? Just kidding. 

Shawna  20:03
Like, yo, I'm  just here like, I'm sorry, if I'm confusing to you. I'm not trying to be all tricky or anything. But,

Meredith 20:09
Yeah

Shawna 20:10
It's called social cognitive theory. And basically, social cognitive theory suggests that people use categorization to simplify things. And it helps people cope with all the information. Our brains are wired to put everything, everybody every concept in a category. And if you don't fit naturally into that category, then it kind of messes people, and they're like, what are you doing to me? Why are you tricking me? Even if it doesn't come out that way? You know, so, in looking at you, it's a lot of information to take in, and they try to cope when they say what I am. So there you go.

Meredith  20:44
I think that's funny. I just in my mind kind of connected that to the comments of like, What are you? I feel like that's such a blatant representation of our brains trying to do that. Classify people like people's brains just really literally going What is going on? Like, what are you? And not that I don't I think people are intentionally phrasing it rudely. You know, I but I really hearing you talk about that. And kind of thinking about that, that question. It just almost makes me giggle. Coz it's just like, ooh, your brain really is just trying hard. It's really

Cindy  21:22
You can like see the loading sign modal Apple like loadings.

Shawna  21:26
And so Lauren, earlier, you mentioned that your mom wanted you to kind of sweep your blackness under the rug, your mom, the black parent. And she never talked to you about that, or it was just kind of a, like you said a nuanced sort of thing.

Lauren  21:44
Yeah, so Exactly. Like there's Meredith is exactly right. That like expectation is certainly not the best word. I think hope is much better. And I think manifested even in the fact that we did not have conversations about race in our house. I mean, we never we never even had a conversation about, like the fact that we were biracial. And my oldest sister was black, because she is technically our half sister. So even that until Gosh, I think I was maybe 10 years old when a friend had been teasing me. Gosh, friendship when you're 10. So delightful. When a friend, we've been teasing me about the fact that my older sisters all black, I remember going home and asking my mom about it, you know of being like, well, this girl, she said that autumn can't be my sister, because she doesn't look like me. But like we're sisters, right mom, and at 10 years old, even being like, there's some different races happening here. But you've never talked to me about this never been something that has been mentioned to me. So even I mean, even in that, like memory of just feeling like even in the simplest ways, even when it came down to you know, the the racial breakdown of our family, if you want to call it that. We weren't even having that conversation. So I certainly didn't think that we were going to be having any other conversations about race if we couldn't even talk about our family. And and the TV shows we watched, like lots of Leave it to Beaver and I Love Lucy. Now we did start watching The Cosby Show. And it's not like there wasn't there was no, there were no like, whatever black representations or black music in our house, but it had to be of a certain time.

Shawna  23:52
Yeah, I was gonna ask you because you did mention music before. There were some limits there. Can you talk just a little I'm just curious about that. Like for music, for example, because, you know, people will say, I listened to black music or I wasn't, you know, like, what is black music? What is white music? So what are some examples of what would have been, quote black music or maybe a black artist but acceptable or not really breaking that rule? I'd say

Lauren  24:19
Yes. So and, of course anything like Motown so Jackson, five Diana Ross and the Supremes. There was Stevie Wonder there was Michael Jackson. There was no like, gosh, there was no like Bobby Brown though. There was no like funk, hip hop or rap or,

Shawna 24:42
So sad. 

Lauren 24:43
Very, like very, you know, the black music that the white people can get. 

Shawna 24:50
Gotcha.

Lauren 24:51
And a lot of ways, I guess. 

Shawna 24:55
Yeah. 

Lauren 24:56
Yeah. So just felt, I guess they are a little sterile. Maybe I don't know.

Shawna  25:01
Yeah, like your Billboard Top hits anything clean cut. And yeah, that would be expected in any way. 
Lauren 25:08
Yeah

Shawna 25:09
Basically, you weren't breaking it down to our Kelly. 

Lauren 25:12
No, no, no

Shawna 25:15
Cindy, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about your family growing up, were really looking at how our own lives like growing up have influenced parenting. Now, I'd love to know a bit about your family, and what it was like.

Cindy  25:35
Yeah, so I'm the youngest of 11. Both of my parents are from the island of Guam. And the last three kiddos were born here in the States. And then like I said, earlier, I was raised in a small little town next to an Air Force Base. So growing up with my family, we kind of stuck her own because there wasn't that many brown people in the town. And I was lucky enough to have grown up near an Air Force Base, where some of those kiddos would have to start coming to the town school, like in fourth grade. And thankfully, I was integrated with lots of different kids from the Air Force Base. And combined with the Air Force Base in my small town, we were probably like a population of 5000. So we're, we're still pretty small, comparative to other towns around us. But my parents were still pretty, they're old fashioned. They're my parents were a lot older than most of my friends. And generational the way that they were raised, they stuck to their family, they stuck to their culture, it's more of a cultural thing, where, you know, we didn't hang out with other people outside of our family that much. And being raised by my family, they they kind of wanted us to stick to our own and not really date outside of our race. However, dating white people was okay. 

Shawna 27:03
Aah

Cindy 27:04
Yeah, 

Shawna 27:05
So that's the exception. 

Cindy 27:06
Yeah, there was the exception. And I never could quite understand that, you know, they were such gung ho, American GI Joes sort of people that I'd never understood, and maybe because of the fact that my parents were actually, you know, grew up during World War Two, when they were, you know, when the US actually intervened with the Japanese there, because the Japanese had occupied the island. So I'm not sure if there was like, some sort of connection with Americans with being dating white people, or what the situation was there exactly. I would talk to my mom about it, given our scenarios, you know, and growing up in that small town, I didn't actually come out until I was out of the house, and about to turn 18. So, you know, I dated white boys when I was allowed to date white boys. And that was pretty, you know, like, when I was probably 16, or 17. But they didn't know that I also dated black boys, too. 

Shawna 27:59
Oh, 

Cindy 28:00
Yeah. Never never told them about that because it was going to be a situation. And I always brought those scenarios up to my mom, and she'd never really answered me directly, what that meant to her.

Shawna  28:15
So your understanding of what was okay, in terms of whom to date was just implied.

Cindy  28:21
Exactly. Exactly. And there wasn't any reasoning for it, you know, my brothers and sisters had black friends growing up, my dad had black friends from from the Air Force Base, and after he retired, and he worked in the nearby factory. We had black people over at the house, you know, so it wasn't that they were did not, you know, accept anyone in their home of different you know, of being black. But, you know, they kind of had a hard time with dating with Mexicans, too. So am I, one of my sisters actually married a Mexican, and that was a big situation for them. So it was it was mainly them. And like I said, I think it was a an island or generational thing for them. And, you know, growing up and finally coming out and dealing with all that mess. You know, I I know that with our daughters and our kiddos and how we're being raised, you know, my parents weren't, you know, they didn't communicate with us that we were kind of the household of you do what you're told, you know, you don't question your elders, you take care of the elders, you don't question your elders. So there wasn't a lot of communication growing up, you know, and kind of having an open dialogue with what's going on in the world. We were just kind of expected to do what we were and you know, it was weird because, you know, you're talking about music earlier. And growing up, I had Prince and Michael Jackson smeared all over my walls from, you know, floor to ceiling and you know, we listened to all kinds of music, so none of that was ever an issue for them. So, you know, just thinking about my girls and any future kiddos that come into our house. I think that it's just very important to have that kind of opened dialog. And you know, our two older girls are black and being able to connect with them and trying to understand where they're coming from in this day and age, as a young black teenage girl and young young lady, it's, you know, it's been eye opening for for me.

Shawna  30:16
Would you say that you've already begun to start having those open dialogue, even with your younger ones?

Cindy  30:24
Oh, yeah, I mean, you know, with our little three year old telling her that she's a quarter black and that she's Islander, and that she's white, explaining that to her, making sure that she's having diversity and the books we read, to her is important. where we live, you know, we live in a in a very mixed area. And it was important before we even had her, that was important when we bought our house, you know, we there's several different communities and counties around us that are primarily white, and I didn't, I didn't feel comfortable living there. And it's not like anything happened to me, I wanted a diverse, you know, city to live in. And that was something that's been important for Meredith and I. And I think that's what we try to instill upon our kids too.

Shawna  31:12
Right? It has always been an aim for us to be in a very diverse area. And even if I didn't have children, like I would want that for myself to just because I feel uncomfortable, when it's like, oh, I'm not trying to offend anybody out there listening, but it's just there's like a weird, it's a weird tingle on the back of your neck.

Shawna  31:33
It really is.

Cindy  31:35
There's a feeling like you know, when you're in certain areas, and I worked and lived in primarily White County, and shopping, there was always uncomfortable for me. And even like when I would go out with my white co workers to after hours for happy hour, knowing we're what Barbara we're going into it, I make the head count of how many people of color were in this bar. And you know, and kind of position myself a certain way. And like I said, Nothing, nobody, you know, has done anything to me to make me so alarm. But I was always aware about and growing up where I did. Like I said, I was very lucky to be around the Air Force kids, because there were so many different kiddos that came there. And if if that wasn't there, I would have been going to school with, you know, farmers and, and rednecks. And I'm thankful that I had that opportunity to be around other other kids of color and, and backgrounds. And that just kind of helped me open my eyes on things. And when I go back home, my family still lives back there. And it's kind of hard for me. And especially in this climate right now, Missouri is a very red state. And there's lots of there, they have lots of billboards there that like to yell at you about things. So it's hard for me to go back home sometimes to to see my family, the comfort level is definitely not there. Like it used to be.

Carmen  32:58
I say, thinking a little bit about one of our previous guests, who is a counselor, she was discussing the ways in which experiences as a person of color, particularly black people, or people who visibly are a person of color. There's kind of this post-traumatic stress, but it's not really post-traumatic because the existence itself is a continued one. It's not, there's no end date kind of thing to the racial trauma that we face. And it kind of made me think a little bit about the comment that you made about you know, when you're going into the particular bar with your white coworkers, Cindy, and the comment about well, you know, nothing's ever really happened to me to make me it sounds like maybe be in that state of vigilance or maybe closer to hyper vigilance. But it just kind of had me thinking a little bit about the the discussion that we had with a past guest about, it's kind of the state that we we live in, or that particular people have to live in because of what they're exposed to on the daily. So even if it's not one act in a bar, it's kind of like there's this overarching experience as a person of color, where your brain and your body is living in anticipating some of the challenges that you're going to be facing.

Cindy  34:12
Mm hmm. That makes sense. That makes total sense. And, you know, I think also the fact that I'm, I'm a lesbian probably is, you know, that awareness I hadn't awareness is always there, because even holding my wife's hand in public in certain areas, I don't feel comfortable, you know, so I guess that's always just been like fine-tuned, in my head, you know, just to kind of be aware of what's where my surroundings are, and not putting myself in a situation. Yeah, that I shouldn't have to,

Shawna  34:39
You know, having talked to Meredith and Lauren, and it seems the one thing that is in common with all three of you, is that there was this lack of communication growing up. So to know that that is something that is really important to all three of you as parents and wanting your children to feel very strong in their identity. 80s and to talk about those things, I think it's awesome. 

Carmen  35:03
Yeah, in a very serious way, I just I want to say thank you and listening to all three of you speak about your experiences being women of color, but also the way that you approach motherhood. I think as women of color. It's interesting. I'm not a mother, you know, I'm in my 20s. But I obviously, I do think I want to be a mother one day. And it's, it's a privilege to listen to women speak about these experiences, because it does shape the way I think I want to have these conversations with my kids down the line. And I think it's pretty interesting to get to hear, especially Lauren, and Meredith, how, you know, your conversations around race and identity didn't necessarily start until you became mothers. And I think it's an interesting way to challenge myself to undo some of my own biases, and make sure that if I'm having conversations with hypothetical children down the line, you know that I'm mindful of what I'm going to be bringing into their lives. So thank you

Shawna 35:50
do it while you're young.

Cindy  35:53
Yes, 

Shawna 35:54
Before you are tired.

Cindy 35:55
Yeah

Meredith  35:58
One of the biggest things I kind of challenged myself on as a mom is like, why am I making this rule or parenting in the way that I am? Is it coming from some place of fear or bias? Or is it because there's an actual reason? And there's like, that's helpful to me in a lot of ways, but particularly when it comes to topics like this, because I feel like that was the biggest thing that was missing for me was, why are we avoiding these things? If there is a good reason to avoid doing these things as a family, like, that's fine, let's at least talk about it and say, This is why here's like, what the risk is to you out in the world, or here's the thing that you're not prepared to understand yet, or whatever it is. But if it's just parenting from a knee jerk, like, I'm scared for my child, with no additional follow up, it's confusing and disorienting. And it doesn't provide any tool for how to like, handle that situation. So that's the biggest thing for me is I'm like, why am I making this decision that I'm making? Is this the decision that needs to be made? Or can I do it another way that's more transparent or gives my child more tools or more understanding or communicates with them better? That's one of the things I'm most intentional about is why am I doing this? How is this giving my child a tool for later? I don't know if it's working. We'll see.

Shawna 37:28
That was commendable. Listen, I just enjoyed this conversation so much. Thank you for joining us and again, for sharing your stories. I really, really appreciate it. Thank you.

Meredith  37:41
So it's been great.

Shawna  37:44
Until next time, please take care of yourself. And I'm looking forward to catching up with you again. And Carmen, thank you for joining me for this episode. Yeah,

Carmen  37:53
Thank you. I love that I got to do this.

Shawna 37:57
Alright, thanks again. You guys take care.

Intro  38:04
You've been listening to our true colors.