Identity Beyond Chapter Titles with Katrina Strohl

Katrina Strohl (they/them) served as an Aviation Structural Mechanic in the US Navy. In 2018, Katrina decided to take their own life after internalizing the behavior of an unsafe workplace. They now serve others through their work in psychological safety, mental health and boundary strategy for people who share their identities or their lived experiences.

This work includes Absolutely Not!, the weekly live podcast dedicated to providing examples of setting personal boundaries at work and the vocabulary needed to name harm in those spaces. Katrina is Black, Sāmoan and Queer and lives with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), Major Depressive Disorder (MDD), Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) and a Substance Use Disorder.

Heads up: This episode contains strong language.

In this episode, Katrina talks with Yolandie and me about the ambiguity...of racial ambiguity (did you catch that?). We also discuss how we can watch out for the characters of white supremacy culture - no matter how you racially identify. We also talk about how the media can influence how we see ourselves and how others see us.

Here are some other resources to check about topics mentioned in this episode:

• The term "Latinx" is used by just 3% ofUS Hispanics
• POC, WOC, BIPOC and other terms labeling people of color
• The Costs of Code-Switching

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Transcript

Intro  

Welcome to our True Colors hosted by Shawna Gann. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial riddle, an ethnic enigma, and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.

Shawna  

Hi, everyone. Welcome to a new episode of Our True Colors. I am so pleased that Yolandie and I had the opportunity to meet and speak with Katrina Strohl. Katrina uses the pronouns they/she/he, and you can learn more about this in the show notes.  

Katrina served as an aviation structural mechanic in the US Navy. In 2018. She decided to take her own life after internalizing the behavior of an unsafe workplace. They now serve others through their work and psychological safety, mental health and boundary strategy for people who share their identities or their lived experiences. This work also includes “Absolutely Not!” the weekly live podcast dedicated to providing examples of setting personal boundaries at work, and the vocabulary needed to name harm in those spaces. Stay tuned for an amazing discussion about identity. Yolandie a joining us today we have Katrina Strohl. Hi, Katrina! 

Katrina

Hi!

Shawna

Thank you so much for joining us! This is really exciting, because it's been so long since I've been in this space, getting to hang out with folks and talk about the things that we experienced. When we first met one another, I saw your link in your signature. And I went there, I was like, oh my god, this is an amazing human like, has done all the things. If you ever want to see a cape flying go find Katrina Strohl, I'm just saying…Lots of really cool stuff. 

Katrina

None, of that is true. 

Shawna

Well…[jokingly scoffs]

 I’m so glad to have you. Could you just tell us a bit about yourself?

Katrina

Yeah, so I'm Katrina Strohl. My pronouns are they/she/he. I'm a psychological safety consultant, mental health advocate, boundary strategist and podcast hosts, I work this work, because it needs to be done. And I'm excited to kind of talk about my work through the lens of your show today. And I'm actually terrified to talk about it through the lens of your show today, but we'll see where we go. 

Shawna  

Yeah, so how do you see the lens since this would be a little bit of a different take for you?

Katrina

Um, so I talk a lot about psychological safety. I talk a lot about mental health, I talk a lot about boundaries, I talk a lot about identities and intersectionality. And what I have been fearing talking about is the ambiguity that has occurred and kind of the forced solidarity that I see often throughout social media throughout, like art through the media, because of the ambiguity that keeps like white supremacy in place. And so I'm, yeah, I'm really scared to talk about this. But I mean, somebody has to.

Shawna  

I hear that, it is, it is a very interesting time that we are in. You know, I was trying to actually find vocabulary to capture what this is this strange sort of… Okay, for a minute, when Obama was elected, there was all this “Oh, post racial America”. And then for a minute after that people were like, “hold up, is actually not post like, we're still in the space, but isn't it better?” And then for like, five minutes, people were like, “Oh, my God, it's not better. We need help! Let's, you know, we got to do all the things, check all the boxes!” whatever. And that's the part. That is a struggle right now, because I feel like summer of 2020, we don't need to rehash it right now. I'm pretty sure that that phrase right there summer 2020, will just strike all the feelings and people specifically in the US, we were trying to deal with what the world was dealing with, with COVID. But then on top of that, coming face to face with some real, like racial reality stuff that people were not ready. But then when you are a person who doesn't fit into a specific box, it's like, what do you do with it, then? That's the ambiguity where it's like, not only folks trying to label you, or put you in a box or perceive who you are just by looking at you. But then also like inside like, who am I? Where do I fit into all of this? 

Speaking of that, you know, boxes and people fitting us in them, just for folks who may be joining Our True Colors for the first time. I always say I don't do really good with boxes, the whole questions of where What are you? What's your what's your background? Where are you from? Like, all those things can be tricky for folks. Have you experienced those kinds of questions?

Katrina

Yes. And one of the one of the weird things that's happening I love that you're talking about how it's still happening. Weird things are still happening. And I kind of touched on that for solidarity that's happening, like BIPOC is the new the new thing right now and POC and WRC. And that ambiguity, though, like, like, it does not compute with me, I'm not understanding how that's moving us forward as a people, and how that's moving us forward, or how that's creating solidarity. What are we being solid? About? What are we coming together about? Who are we centering in the conversation or with those acronyms? And so to constantly have, and it's always white, white women who they will call me BIPOC? Or be like, Oh, because you're a BIPOC? Like, what the fuck did you get that from? Like, where? At what point? Did I give you permission? To put me in that box? Ma'am, sir, whoever you are. And, um, there are so many people that share my identities, who continued to give them that permission for themselves. And then it gives them the assumption that, Oh, I haven't given permission for everybody I can do, I can call everybody that. And it's just not true.

Yolandie

I remember the first time I heard that abbreviation, or maybe I read it in an email, and they were offering scholarships. I don't remember what it was, it was some program I had had interest in at one point in time. And they were offering scholarships to BIPOC people. And I was like, to who? And so I had to open it and read it. And I was like, Oh, I guess I qualify for that. But why is this a thing? And why are we using this term? Like, is this really necessary that we have to, you know, create another box and create another label? Like, do we need this?

Shawna  

Well, it's so interesting, because I think a lot of that is done in the name of inclusivity. It kind of makes me think of the “Latinx” thing. I am not Latina at all. But what I have read is that the “x” at the end, was really something that a scholar used in some academic writing, in the name of, you know, inclusion, but like, forgot to, I guess, asked the greater community if they wanted to be referred to as Latinx. I feel like that's the same with BIPOC. It is the same thing like POC. Right, right. There are so many terms that used to be disempowering. And people sort of took back their power, right? Like you think about colored people being a negro. And like, only when those things we can begin to become sort of disempowering or diminishing, you know, did they go out and then people reclaim them? Same with queer? It used to be an insult? Now it's, it's embraced by the queer community, but it's like, who gets to decide what to label or call people? I don’t know…that's a good point.

Katrina

And it all goes back to who's in power? Those people in power, they be making decisions without asking anybody to your point? Um, who are the people that are gathering everyone up and saying, like, “Okay, this is the new terms that we are using”, if they do not look like the people in those communities? Why the fuck are you at the pulpit? Like, why are you having this discussion? Why are you having a whole sermon on what Black people want to be called? And for people who are multiracial and multicultural, “BIPOC”, that wants things needed to like the core, because it's supposed to be Black, indigenous, and people of color. I'm Black and Sāmoan… where the fu…so I’m supposed to cut myself up? So some of me is indigenous and who gets to be indigenous, Sāmoan people have never heard the people talk about you may have never, so all of these decisions are being made with my answers. Just I have never been in that room. So it's just I can go on and on about these decisions that are being made. But to the people that are out there thinking “yeah, this is inclusive as hell”. Becky, is it? Is it please ask yourself if it truly is? 

Yolandie

And I love that you say that. Just a little background on me. I'm a personal style and confidence coach and I talk about this like background all the time, like asking yourself questions about why you think what you think and how you think about that. And the fact that you were like “Becky, ask yourself, like, is this real? Is this something that I should be using is like the perfect way to explain it?” Because really, it's about being aware, not only aware of what you're using outside yourself, but how internally are you processing that and how does that affect the way that you interact with your external environment,

Katrina

“affect the way you interact with your external environment”… because if you are saying that all peoples who are melanated in any facet of the of their mela nation can all fall underneath the umbrella of BIPOC then you treat everybody the same then anybody who's not like getting the same type of… what type of treatment. 

Yolandie

Really, if you want to be A scientific about it, white people have melanin as well as just not as much as the rest of us. So technically, they are also people of a color, it's just not the darker colors that they tend to reference with these terms. And I don't know that anybody's ever really thought about that. Because they're not transparent, we can't see through them, they still have some color.

Shawna  

Wow, that goes into the whole whiteness-as-a-race. And the way the Western society has decided that whiteness is a default, and so everybody else is “other.”

Yolandie

I think this is a good segue, though, to talk about, like, the division and like the feeling of needing to pick aside with percentages, and like you're, you know, 15% this and like 20% this, and I was sharing a story before we met up about when I was a kid, and how I felt like, I needed to pick a side as far as what my body looked like and how I (1) dressed it like, (2) the kind of exercise to maintain a healthy figure. And whereas one side like the white side was very like supermodel Cindy Crawford tall, thin. And the other side is very like voluptuous, give me a big butt. Give me big boobs. And I was like in the middle. So wondering, do I which one fits my body? And like, how do I handle this? And so I just wondered like, how do you how did you feel about those types of situations and feeling like you had to like to join one side or the other?

Katrina

So yeah, I'm Blacking Sāmoan, and I was raised in Hawaii and I moved to the mainland, when I was 13. That's like a prominent time in your life. And was immediately told, like, you need to act more Black or you need to dress like we bought Baby Phat coats, we bought like, Dereon jeans, we but it was it was the time, but so that the representation and media of what Black women look like, of what Black people look like, of what America looks like, in general, it doesn't represent other cultures. And if there are multiracial people being represented in media, they have to choose a lane, they choose a lane, like Zendaya, who's the other one? ZZ Beats. That's not her real name. Her name is like Zazie Beetz. They're all multiracial. They're Black and white, but they're constantly I'm a Black woman, I'm about this. 

And it's just creating a picture in our brain of what like Black women look like and like what we're allowed to be and what we're allowed to be proud of, is so very strange. And it caused a lot of even in my teen years, it caused a lot of like, body dysmorphia, for me, it caused a lot of like, okay, I'm Black in someone like, where's my representation? Or you only get to be Black? So Black women do this. So do this. I wasn't allowed to see by anymore. I wasn't allowed to wear stays in my hair I wasn't allowed to do because I am Black. It goes back to like that one drop rule and all that shit, that you only get to be one thing.

Shawna  

Good ole hypodescent – one-drop rule. Yeah, that's true. I'm kind of curious a little bit more about the whole media, situation and, and representation. As you know, we keep seeing people talk about the, quote, browning of America, and things changing. Do you think that? I mean, I don't know, I know, we can't predict the future. But do you think that some of this stuff will begin to shift that there will always be sort of this you got to pick aside or straddle lanes or whatever? Or do you think people will just start to accept folks for who they are?

Katrina

I think…no. I think I'm it's slowly getting there in the sense that they are hiring more people who are not white to fill roles, but they are definitely still people who either are white passing or like, you can barely tell that they have a tan and like you can barely be like, Oh yeah, they're Black. Um, but or they're all the way like the fetishization of like super dark skin has been apparent in like, what was that? There was that cover of Essence that just happened and it was like all really dark models from South Sudan and it was like a weird light on them to make them look super dark. And they were all wearing all Black. So right now it's like, yeah, that might have not been the cover of Essence. Let me not say the cover Essence, but it was a cover of a magazine. And so people are like, oh, let's Blacking it up in here, but they're still not doing it correctly. It's either… but it's still very binary. It's like, we need either a very ambiguous person that we can say, yeah, look what we got, or a super Black person. So ain’t nobody up there that looks like or gets to be their culture. And you have to be like just Black. Don't say that, “Oh, I'm Black from this part” or there's no diaspora, which is the word diaspora being represented in the media. It's just like, Asian, or Black or white. And that's all y'all get. Don't try to ask for specifics, because we just try to represent some type of way.

Yolandie

And it all feels very performative to me, too. It's not out of genuine desire to include all different types of people. It's like you said, like, hey, look what we got, you know, and I do community theater also, like on the side, and I have 100% been that person of like, “Hey, look who we got.” And, like, nobody comes out, right? And says, like, “that's why you're here”. But you know, like, you know, that you're that person. Or they'll just message you and ask, like, “Hey, can you come audition for this”? And then you open it, and you read the requirements, and they need like, Black people, and they don't have any. “So they're like, you'll fit right?” And, it's like, but do I like, can't you just put out an honest call and or just cancel the show and say, we didn't get the people? And so like, when media does that, it's like, are you really serving and including the people that you intend to? Or are you just doing it to make yourself look good? Because it's probably the first one, honestly, which is still sad.

Shawna  

Yeah, I'm not sure there's a shortage of tokenism. But nobody's gonna, you know how it goes, like, that's scary to start calling things out like that. And we, “oh, no, no, no, I can't I can't be you know, it's not it's not about that. It's not about that.” But reality is reality. And even for people like me, like, I am not multiracial, but I do have mixed heritage, because part of my family's Creole, which in itself is mixed heritage, you know, but I have found… this is just, this is nothing empirical. I haven't done any, like actual experimentation and graphing of things. But I'm just gonna say it's part of my lived experience, or what I assumed to be true based on my lived experience. There's this feeling, when I find myself in a predominantly white setting, either workplace or wherever I am, that it's, it's okay, if I'm a Black person, because I'm… like, it's like… I call it like, so I'm light skinned Black, but I call this phenomenon, again, not empirical, just my own “Black Lite”. Because it's like, they can take me a little bit easier, because I'm not, I'm not the Black person, that they when they think of that in their minds. And it's pretty insulting in a way to think about like, oh, okay, so I can be accepted into his face, or I can serve as a representative, so to speak, or be in this role, because I'm Black, and you need representation, but it's easier or more palatable, or something like that, because I'm light skinned, or I talk a certain way, or I dress a certain way. And it's, it's like, it's completely diminishing, again, no one's ever said those things. People don't say those things. 

But it is the feeling you get, especially or, excuse me, it's a feeling I get, especially when I look around me and I have colleagues who are, you know, darker skinned, or they're more like they would be more easily placed into a box. And those experiences and colorism is real. And to me like that is also a struggle. I don't know what that's looking like, in places like Hollywood or, or things. I mean, we can we have seen some articles and discussion come out in that vein. But when you're living this your day to day, it's also a very, like, strange and painful place to be in your workplace or in your school or wherever you are, because it's again, pitting you almost against other people just because of your identity just because of how you look. I don't know if that's my take. 

Katrina

And I don't think he's pitting me against anybody. I'm also of the lighter by already and me acknowledging that privilege that it gets me into different spaces. I also am a veteran. So that gets me into different spaces or rooms that I would not easily be in. But accepting that and acknowledging that it creates less ambiguity in the spaces that I'm in like acknowledging that in all the spaces that I'm in, which is another reason why I don't just say Black anymore, I make sure in any space that I'm in I say Black and Sāmoan person because I cannot speak to a monoracial Black person's experiences because I had different-ass experiences than y'all have had. I cannot speak to a darker skin person's experiences because I have had different-ass experiences there. So again, when ambiguity incur occurs when we have had not had clear communication in the rooms that we have been in, or assumptions have been made about us, and I'm tired of assumptions being made about me. So I'm as clear crystal-ass clear as possible in any room I go into. 

Yolandie

I think that’s a really good practice with being crystal clear about where you're coming from that you're Black and Sāmoan. And I might adopt that I might start walking into rooms. And when they, you know, ask, or they don't need, they don't even need to ask, I'm just going to tell them, “I'm Jamaican-Polish. And that's all you need to know.” Because they just assume you're right. They just make assumptions. And I shared this on my episode, I talked about when I was in the grocery store, and this man just turned around and was like, “What are you?” And I was like, “Excuse me? What do you mean, what am I'm human. Thank you. What are you?” Yeah, I think that's a really amazing way to dispel the assumptions that people make.

Shawna  

Yeah, I do talk about my creole identity. But because I didn't grow up in the culture, I think I shy away from it a little bit, because I can't speak to all of the aspects. I mean, not that anyone can speak to all of the aspects of any given identity, but I just have a very limited view, because I'm learning about it. It's not something I grew up with, but I recognize that it's part of who I am. And it's part of why I look like I look. And so it's just become part of my…Maybe it's because I'm tired too, Katrina, so I just kind of just say the things that you know, they'll say like, have your elevator speech ready. It's become like part of the elevator speech. “Hey, I'm Shawna. I'm from Anchorage, Alaska, and my family's from here. Yes, my partner, my family's Creole. And that's what I look like I look ,I know I confuse people.” Like I say the things, I say the things that I didn't realize that it's become sort of this elevator speech, but I think it's sort of like had them off at the past. So I don't have to answer all the questions or go through all the stuff because it is exhausting, actually.

Katrina

And I think my elevator speech to your point has changed over time to center me instead of whiteness, because I don't give a shit if that old white man is discomforted by my appearance, or what he thinks he's entitled to know about me. As soon as he fucking looks at me. My elevator speech is tuned to me and what I have allowed you to know about me. So it is very fine-tuned. And these aren't even like, it's not telling you shit about me in the first place. Anyway, to tell you that I am Black and Sāmoan tells you very little about me, I'm still going to have to pick up my book and read all of the chapters. Those are just the chapter titles, Homie, you still have to read the book. 

And I've tried to emphasize that and most of the conversations I have around identities surrounding any of my identities, because so many people when they hear my identities or anybody's identities that okay, cool. I know exactly what's in that book. You do not. And in America, especially, we've been given messages about my identities that are just incorrect to begin with. So even if you think you know about my chapters, they couldn't be wrong. Anyway, I've worked, who tell ‘em, Shawna, didn’t you have to write a dissertation? Like, you have to read the whole dissertation.

I think that's a great point, though. But that they just, we just assume we know when we hear like you said, the titles of the chapters. It's like looking at a recipe and assuming you know exactly what it tastes like. Like, just because this recipe has chili cumin and pepper in it doesn't mean it tastes like your taco seasoning. It can be totally different. Like, you can't just assume,

Shawna  

Like, “Excuse me, that is the chapter title.” Don't forget to check the footnotes as well. And there will be a sequel and the recipe analogy, right? That's like, I love that analogy, Yolandie Because it's like, you can have 25 recipes for the same dish, and everyone's going to be different. To make that assumption. I think that's actually a beautiful analogy. I like that you could put the same ingredients, but they're going to be in different proportions that those ingredients come from different places, different amounts of whatever, whatever. So I think that's actually a great analogy. 

Oh, man, this has been really such a great discussion. And I've got a lot to think about. That was so powerful, actually, Katrina, the elevator speech center, you're like, “oh, that's, that's been revised.” And I think some of us, myself included, you know, need to continue thinking about this as we go on our journeys, what our elevator speech is, you know, if we choose to have one and we maybe we don't choose to have one. I do find that I do sort of have the things that I say and I wonder how much of it is centered in the car. have heard of others versus myself? Trying to explain it all? You know, because it's just always such a big, huge question mark floating over people's heads, they just want to know, they can't even help it. “I just want to know, I just want to know!!” you know, and it's like, well, we can choose to satisfy curiosity, or we can go on about our business. I don't ask you all your business. So maybe, maybe that's something to think about.

Katrina

One of the biggest things that's helped me revise my elevator speech and just consistently revising, who I'm centering and conversations on who I'm centering, and just the way I move about in the world, is just reviewing the 11 characteristics of white supremacy on a weekly basis, just like okay, how have I upheld these characteristics this week? Oh, look at that, I definitely put quantity over quality this week, are you a white supremacist? No, that we stopped doing that, or I definitely praised the written word this week…don't do that. So I'm constantly just making sure that I'm taking white supremacy out of my work out of my worth, because it's something we've been injected with, since we opened our eyes since we came out the womb, they've been anti-Black students, since… since time. So we need to ensure that on a weekly basis, or on a daily basis, or at least sometimes look at that list and say, hey, when was the last time I really invoke these characteristics? And am I still doing it in everything that I do?

Shawna  

Yeah, that's tricky. And for those of you listening, I'll post that in the in the show notes. So you could check it out. And then you'd be looking at yourself like, Oh, my God! Yeah. 

Well, I know we're about to wrap up any final thoughts, any anything come to mind, before we close,

Katrina

I just really wanted to touch on how harmful it is to be ambiguous, not only for yourself, but for the people around you. If you are claiming some shit that you are not, and then somebody around you sees it, or if you're not claiming the shit that you are…I used to code-switch like a motherfucker. And just to get into rooms, you know, then I would get into a room and slip up and be like, “Girl, yes!” or like, and then they'd look “Oh, so you're Black? I had no idea you were Black this whole time.” 

And not only is that harmful to me, it's harmful to the community, it's harmful, like you causing hell harm by not being yourself, this self-harm. And I need you to know that to be able to swim in the ambiguity. It's like a privilege, but it's not really a privilege, it's, it's just self-harm. So don't swim in the ambiguity, get out of it be as specific as possible and be as in people's faces as possible with who you are and what you are.

Shawna  

Okay, I never closed, but just the one thing, the code switching. I just had such an interesting conversation in the recent weeks about this, and the argument that… and it wasn't like there was this huge debate, let me let me not say “the argument” that sounds… The ideas were presented in a way that Code switching is not necessarily a bad thing, good thing, whatever, because of the means to survive. In some places, you kind of have to do what you got to do. Or like you said, if you're trying to get into the room, sometimes you do that. But it's like what happens, then, you know, when you are having to put yourself constantly in this state of okay, now I'm doing this, now I'm doing this, and I do this, and then I'm not even slipping up. I mean, that happens. And actually, when that happens, that's when I choose to not care because it feels so good to be able to be authentic. So you know, it might shock people but also come on, I know, you go home and you do whatever you do that you don't show in the office, everybody does, everybody has their “home self”. But I don't know, I don't know if it's a harmful thing all the time. Or if it is I just I think it just contributes to that exhaustion. I mean, I guess it's wear and tear on your body, your mind your soul, if you have to keep, or feel the need to keep, doing that for somebody else's benefit.

Katrina

So if you prioritize your safety in the beginning of a relationship, then that relationship is built off of trust and respect and safety. If you prioritize the accommodations or the vision of what the other person wants you to be, then that relationship is built off of that. You are going to constantly be chasing the acceptance of that person. And that person probably didn't prioritize you in the beginning of the relationship because they whether they're in power over you or just in relationship with you at that workplace, they have prioritized themselves and what they want you to be. So that's where the self-harm comes from, because you ain't being prioritized by you or that person.

Shawna

Ouch.

Yolandie

And I think it also ties in with trauma and traumatized, like traumatizing relationships, because I have a friend who specializes in this with entrepreneurs and neurodivergent people. And she was explaining the concept of masking to me and how they will adopt these traits to please their partner so that they can feel safe. And I think that the code switching is a version of that, that in the long run really is harming your sense of self and your self-identity. And who you think you are as a person. It can kind of make you crazy, I think, because you forget, wait, is this me? Or is this not me?

Shawna

Is my mask on are not?

Yolandie

Exactly

Katrina

The summer of 2020. Do you know how many Black people who weren't Black before the summer 2020 became became vocalized Black, and became aware of what they could do with that Blackness in places. So for years before that, they were just riding the wave code switch and doing all the things but 2020 was a breaking point for a lot of people where they just decided I will cause myself no more harm in the spaces if you're going to shoot me in the street. Regardless, I will not be causing myself harm in these spaces just for a paycheck. So yeah, that a lot of people became aware of that. And for anybody who has not become aware and may become aware because of this episode. I mean, I'm rooting for you. 100%.

Shawna  

I just like experienced in like a three second period, just this flush. “I won't be harmed anymore.” The power in that! It can be so hard to find your power. But when you do…

Yeah. Whew! This was good. This was good. Now I gotta go on with the rest of my day and I’m gonna be walking around like, what?

Shawna  

Got Katrina? Where can we find you and all of your great stuff?

Katrina

If you Google “Katrina Strohl”, I should be the only one up there who is not white. So that that that will be me. But I'm mostly in the LinkedIn spaces. LinkedIn has been really finicky during the past months for me. So I am moving to new workspaces. But make sure you subscribe to my newsletter on my website, www.Katrina Strohl.com. 

Shawna  

This has been fantastic. Thank you so much for being a guest and sharing with us. And yeah, go check out Katrina y'all. 

Shawna

Hey, y'all, I really hope that you enjoyed this discussion show fascinating. Don't forget to check out Katrina. Please look in the show notes to find more of their information so that you can find them online and check out his other things. As always, I welcome you to send me your great ideas for topics, people that you think that I should speak with. Or if you want to be a guest reach out to me you can find me at true colors cast.com The website for our true colors, or even hop on over to true colors dei.com for True Colors consulting if you want to learn more about diversity, equity and inclusion in the workplace. Until next time, be safe out there y'all share a smile somebody and please if you can find an opportunity to make someone feel welcome. Love y’all. I'll talk to you soon. 

Outro

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