Our True Colors

Convos with Sandra Hunter: Stealth Aunties and Metaphorical Changing Rooms

• Season 4 • Episode 408

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In this intriguing episode of Our True Colors, Sandra Hunter joins us to talk about her work with Wild Women Leaders of Colour and shares her own experiences of identity and "herstory". Together we talk about leaning on each other...and our ancestors...for support as we as women of color navigate space historically dominated by white men.

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Transcript by Otter.ai

Intro  00:06
Welcome to our True Colors hosted by Sean again. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial, racial, and ethnic Enigma, and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.

Shawna  00:21
Hey, friends, how you doing? I hope you're doing all right out there. Summer is definitely underway. So much going on no shortage of things to keep us worried and talking. But let's consider this, like a lunch break. I don't know, put the bad news somewhere else set it aside. And instead, let's just spend some time together. learn from one another, be inspired by one another. This episode, I am happy to introduce to you Sondra Hunter.

Sandra  00:49
I'm a 65 year old woman who has moved twice in the past six months, divorced my husband of 22 years and launched a new business.

Shawna  01:00
So you can see now we're going to be hanging out with someone who's got tons of perspective so much to offer, especially when it comes to things like mentorship women, supporting women, and taking control of our identities rather than passively letting someone else tell us who we are. So sit back, relax. Maybe even prepare a beverage of your choice. And let's enjoy this conversation. Here we go. Hey, Yolandie How are you?

Yolandie  01:30
I'm good. I'm good. Enjoying the weather finally breaking recently, it's been so hot and cold here. And I more cold than hot. We had like a stretch of four days that it was like 7080. And then it dipped back down into like the 60s and 50s. And no, it looks like it's gonna go back up I think. I don't know I I prepared a whole maternity like summer wardrobe based on the fact that it should be worn by now. And I'm still wearing like the same three pairs of jeans. So I'm just like, Please whether please change?

Shawna  02:05
Well, I haven't gotten a maternity wardrobe. But I did go to Ross Dress For Less. Almost all of which I think I have to return because first of all style person. Look, give us a hint on how to deal with fitting rooms because that is like the worst experience for me. I hate going into fitting rooms. I'm like, does this look okay? Oh my god, I just want to get out of here. I don't care. And then I go home and try on everything again anyway, and then decide to bring it back? Because I just feel like is there such thing as fitting room anxiety? I think I have that. I don't know.

Yolandie  02:39
I would say yes, that there probably is and might have with fitting rooms is don't use them. They're mainly designed to make things look as good as possible. And they don't succeed honestly, with their mirror placement and the lighting is so bright all the time. It's just the worst. So no, I always tell people that I work with take a tape measure with your measurements and measure the items so that you get in the ballpark of the right size. And then take it home and try it on where you're comfortable. And make sure that you get like a 360 view even if that means setting the timer on your phone and taking a picture of your behind side so you can see what it looks like.

Shawna  03:19
That's a good idea. So until recently, we couldn't even use fitting rooms around here because it COVID So I think part of me was like, Oh, I could try on this stuff. Because also I hate returning things like going back to soar returning things. So it's just the whole experience is never fun for me. But I did get a couple of things. I did learn one thing and I tried it it works. Did you know that? I feel like I'm about to tell this but yes. Okay, you guys can't see her. You can't see her but she did the thing that I was gonna say. So we're you basically take I have to describe this for listeners, since y'all can't see. You take the waste of a pair of pants and then wrap it around your neck, like folded like don't unbutton the pants if they have buttons. So you leave it like squeezed close. And if it if it fits around your neck that way, like then it fits your waist and I was like standing in a store pre fitting room. I was like, I'm gonna try this. Yes, people were like, What is this what we're doing? I'm like, It's okay. I will never see them again. I probably will. But that's alright, I'm gonna do this anyway. And it worked. It was cool.

Yolandie  04:23
It's one of those weird biological anomalies like the fact that your arms are as long as your height. Just one of those weird things.

Shawna  04:32
So I don't know if it's worse to try on clothes in a fitting room and hate the way you look in the mirror or if it's worse to stand in the middle of the store and wrap a pair of jeans around your neck. But

04:45
the moral of the story is,

Shawna  04:47
I succeeded in getting a few more summer ish type items. That was that's where I was going. I should probably wrap up this...Anyway, listen, we have an amazing guest today, I am so excited to share her with all of you, because I got the chance to talk with her a bit. And I think we did like our little 30 minute, let's get to know each other. And I'm sure it turned into about 45 minutes or something. It was a good talk, Sandra. Hi, how are you?

Sandra  05:21
Hi. So good to see both of you how you landed, as well, it's just been, I've just been laughing like a dream listening to you talk about more fitting room thing. Because I feel like you need to be hypnotized, or you need to have serious drugs or something. Before you go into a fitting room, you have to do the whole spa and yoga thing. So you're completely distressed before you go in. And you should have a coach just outside telling you breathe in. Two, three, when you're sort of pulling on the past and seeing they don't fit, and I hate that thing where you have to stand there and the attendant comes around and says very sweetly, how are you doing? And then you say, I need three slides is like such a, you know, for for to have sit stand there and be you know, shamed sides shamed? Like it does? Can I get you anything else? Let me see, you want me to switch up sizes?

Shawna  06:21
No, I'm just gonna go home and return it in three days, don't even worry. My coach was like, and I need a coach that doesn't mind like pouring glasses of wine either like in between because I might need I don't know if that's gonna help the fitting situation.

06:41
They come they come equipped with a little trolley, oh, you know, with a little you know, I sparks and everything. So, you know, little shots of stuff, if you need the bourbon, you know, if it's a really tough fitting, that was all, they have these little extendable arms that they push through, it's like an ultimate arm that comes through and here's your shot, you take your shot, and then a little bit of caviar and toast to make you feel fancy. And of course, by the time you do that, you think the store is beneath me. I don't even know. And you leave anyway, you're like, I'm perfect.

Sandra  07:16
Mine failed, they failed to reach you're

Yolandie  07:24
not gonna lie, I might swipe this idea. And it's gonna show up in a real or something. Instagram.

Shawna  07:30
I was just about to say, here's a little aside, after this episode, we're gonna have a business meeting to go over this new coaching model, kind of feels though that the coaches will need their own therapy group after a while, they'll need to sort of get together and sort of distress themselves. While coaches need coaches. That's a fact. I

Sandra  07:53
certainly

Shawna  07:55
think so. I mean, I did that. Lower. Let's not even talk about just jeans shopping. That's like a whole just jeans in itself. I cannot. Anyway, we're here to talk about us. But I am so glad that you totally get what was going on there. Because getting rid of anxiety. Yeah, isn't that? Yeah. So tell us a bit about yourself. So,

Sandra  08:19
I recently pivoted from being in academia for about 19 plus years, where I was teaching creative writing, world literature, which is a kind of a very huge misnomer, because it wasn't world, right, it was just send parts of the world critical thinking, just you know, composition. And I decided that I was really, really tired of watching young women graduating from my classes. So full of brightness and hope and knowing they were going to change the world. And they were going to get out there and they were certified. And they were, they were ready to get the interview and they get the interview and they get into the workplace. And then the same old racism was right there to meet with open arms. And that's when I decided, okay, something has to change here. This is just not doing it. So it feels like there's a big gap between nurturing these amazing people through college, you know, just giving them all those opportunities. And then when they leave, that's it, we're hands off, nothing happens. And then you've got it from here, you know what you're doing? And of course they do but they're not given an opportunity and then it's isolation or white tears or you know, people passing them over for opportunities to present or get professional development or not really be considered for promotion. And so my idea was to find professional women match them with these young people. So you have a stealth Auntie network now love her professional women who are guiding these young women and saying, Okay, you can call on me, I'm here to tell you, you know, went home Bend to draw, when to see HR, when to step away from a situation, learn how to release stress, manage your body through stress. Take a deep breath, you know what you want go back into the fire.

Shawna  10:12
Oh my god. So I love that so much. Not just because just being a stealth Auntie sounds amazing. Like I want to wear like a leather jacket. Yeah, you have some amazing glasses, first of all, but beyond that, we have seen like research tells us studies have told us people of color. But specifically women of color are the professionals who get left out of the mentorship game, right? They don't get the mentors, they don't get the sponsors. And most of the time, it's because there aren't representatives in leadership positions. When I say representatives, I mean, people representative of their community, whatever that is, because we know that we're so much more than just who we are racially or ethnically, right? We have all the lovely things that come with intersectionality. But just trying to burst through barriers as a woman and then as a woman of color and not having somebody to look to who has come before you who can offer guidance as a mentor and then champion you. Yeah. So you know, the fact that you are pairing women so they have that support, I just think is amazing. That's what's needed.

Sandra  11:21
Thank you. Thank you. I'm there are other mentorship programs out there. But I think this is the only self Auntie network that's out there right now. And the reason is, is because we're starting from grassroots. And it's not just for young women who are graduating from college and university. But I want to bring in the trade schools, I want to bring in underserved high schools, because you look at the C suite. Right now, how many women of color are in there? Since 2019? Not a lot of change. And across the board, there was a study in 2015 that UCLA did long term study. And the response from women in middle management or upper management or anywhere in companies was there is no mentorship and without mentorship, we are doomed. And if you look back at Malcolm Gladwell, outliers, which I have problems with, but one of the things that he mentions, is, for example, there are no women mentioned in outliers. But he mentions that opportunity and mentorship are two of the most crucial components components of success. And neither of those are without mentorship, it's unlikely you'll have opportunity, and it's not live it's make the difference is not sponsorship, that's mentorship, it's encouragement is saying you can do this so that your young person isn't continually second guessing themselves, feeling that they're being gaslighted, gaslit. I don't know what the past tense is all the time. Or, you know, what is it that's going on, and trying to work out what's going on in the situation, you know, our emotional antenna up anytime we go in, we walk in large part of the time into 90%, white rooms, you know, unless we specifically seek out bipoc communities. So in business, when you walk into something like that, you are immediately aware of the fact that you are one of the very few people in the room. So what do you do you back against the wall, you frantically signal to the one other person in the room and try and sort your way towards them? Or you freeze? Yeah. And so you know, you look at successful women of color, and look at the power that they have in walking out onto a stage. You know, the obvious one I think is, is Oprah. But there are many women coming up who have you know, who are so powerful. And the reason that they're so powerful is that they own this story. And that's one of the things that's missing, I think is teaching people to own their story. Owning your story means obviously, knowing who you are. Many people don't know who their ancestors are, they have no idea. Maybe people don't even know their mothers. So there's a this ties into something I'll be doing in a couple of weeks with a workshop. But going back and finding your ancestors now you can do it through history. You can do it through newspaper research, you can do it through birth and death records. There are ways that you can find a trail if you like, but what if that trail doesn't exist? Yeah,

Shawna  14:18
I mean, I guess I'm one of those people, my ancestors were brought over involuntarily. So my trail ends, and I've done I've participated in both Ancestry DNA and 23andme. And I, you know, it's kind of fun to compare and whatever, see what you get, but you get like regions, but there's no way for me to I have a family member, one of my aunts, she is doing a genealogy project from my paternal side of my family. And she's gotten pretty good. But I mean, that's the unfortunate truth for many people, right? For some of us historically, in the United States, like, that's the tragic

Sandra  14:54
truth. Those ancestors I mean, you look back their faces and voices because you they, their story wasn't permitted to be told. It was too brutal to be told, or it was overwritten by white narrative. It's not that the ancestors are not there they are there in all their forms, I mean, 23andme, and ancestry.com. Those are incredible tools, but they are limited. They're right. They're limited because you go back a couple of generations, and DNA is all over the place. Right? Because you got, you know, artists in law and cousins in or, you know, there's all this spread. So one of the ways that you can do it is to look back to the history of the period. Okay, what were people doing around this time? What were they wearing? Where were they going to church? And is it possible to trace people through churches? And through newspapers through local stories? What did they eat? What were they wearing? What music were they listening to, in this period, you know, the 1950s, it would have been different from the 1850s in the 1890s. So it's one way of constructing something that you can make yourself, so you can actually make your own history. Her story, if you want to say that way. For example, I reconstructed my mother's story, she never told me anything about herself. So I knew points of departure. She lived in Sri Lanka, she went to India, she moved to London. And I know roughly the dates, I know nothing else. So it was a matter of going back and researching the time periods and say, what would it have been like for a 16 year old girl to leave her mother, knowing that she would never see her family again, when she went to India? What would it be like to leave India, leave all the friends in India and go to London, post World War Two racist society, I know fight both paternalism and racism. It's kind of like, you know, when you have your her story, is you decide what makes you strong, right? Because traditionally, history has been written by men, I was lucky enough to spend two years in Kenya in the 80s. And the history was passed on by the women. Because you know, many rural areas, I was in a rural area. And it takes at least two hours to prepare the evening mail because you have to like the charcoal, it has to burn down. And then you start preparing the meals. So you have the ants and the grandmothers telling stories, telling riddles, telling jokes, singing songs, to keep the kids from you know, going crazy, you know, because they're waiting for dinner. But that's the methodology. And it's oral, it's oral tradition, as as it is in India as well. You know, if you know that your family is behind you, which is basically what we're talking about with ancestors, it gives you so much more power when you step into what you need to every day. If you're somebody working in a toxic environment, you need all the support you can get.

Shawna  17:43
Yeah, I definitely love this perspective of coming at it with this sort of familial or ancestral viewpoint to draw strength. And you know, a lot of people are freaked out right now about any discussion of critical race theory, CRT, right. One of the tenants is storytelling, but it's more than just telling stories. It's about narrative and counter narrative. So yes, it's very powerful and very important. I know people kind of get out of sorts when they're thinking about critical race theory, mainly, that's because a lot of people don't know what it really is. But that aspect of narrative and counter narrative is, is a major component there.

Yolandie  18:24
Yeah, I was just thinking, as you were, you know, talking about these young women in the workplace, and the lack of support, you know, back on my own journey shortly after college, and I spent, you know, 16 years in retail, which is like heavily female driven, even in our own unit, our single store where I spent most of the time, at the top of the food chain, if you will, was a white male, and it was very diverse, but it was still led by the white man, which I always I always thought how it was kind of strange. And he did a great job. He was very, you know, compassionate and sensitive. And I, I actually got a lot of mentorship from him. He was a big champion for me. But I also had a lot of self discovery, and in almost in the way that you talked about with the ancestors, and while I wasn't necessarily searching out my ancestors for support, I was searching out other women who were starting to step forward. This was around the time of what was it girl boss, and lean in with Sheryl Sandberg? And, you know, I read both of those. And I was like, Well, who else is there that I can read and there wasn't a lot really, that was just those two. And so I had to lean on other pieces of information that helped me develop those skills and leadership skills that I needed to stand out but I had to lean on white men and learn like how they did it and then analyze it and go okay, this doesn't necessarily work for me, but it will work if I do it. This way. And I think that was a big part of it was understanding that, you know, while this person is giving me this advice, they're not the same as me. And I had to understand who I was, in order to use it effectively. So I can totally see how having all that ancestral knowledge of where you came from, would wrap in there really beautifully. And just support all the decisions that you make as far as what works for your development and stepping into the power that you actually have.

20:31
Right? And I'm so glad you had a positive mentorship experience, which is wonderful. But it also points out to me that what you've mentioned, the idea that this was a male who was giving you advice, rather than asking you what you needed. And I think that, you know, the feminine perspective is, how do we make this work? How do we make this work? For me, having watched this through academia, it's very much the male perspective is it's a mountain, it's a peak, and there's one person at the top. Whereas women, when you see women together in business, very often I'm not saying everybody, it's this is a plateau, and there's room for everyone. And let's bring everybody on board. And it makes it so much more powerful.

Yolandie  21:09
It absolutely does. And I have a really amazing group of women. You know, being an entrepreneur and running my own business myself, I have a beautiful circle of women. And that's exactly how we all feel about each other, that there's this plateau, we're all standing at the top of it, and we can see everything around us. And we can see even more, because we're working together to look at all the directions and supporting. So yeah, I think that was a really beautiful metaphor.

21:36
I love that too. And I'm sorry, don't get my metaphor. Oh, that was wonderful of me. I mean, I really love what you're doing with with this, this group of very supportive women. It's so enlightening to me to meet women who are not exposed to opportunity, the way that other people are. And it reminds me, for example, you know, let me just talk about that a little bit. I've met recently, this incredible group of bipoc women entrepreneurs in Portland, they are amazing. I mean, their work is amazing. But what is striking is how much they don't know of what is available in terms of support. Oh, yeah. So you know, they don't know that there's funding, they don't know, they can apply for grants, they don't know that they can get support, they feel they have to do everything themselves, you know, because they're doing it right. They don't know that you can actually ask for help. So for me, there's there's two things that strike me here are women entrepreneurs, you know, bipoc, women entrepreneurs, so many of us now moving into the marketplace, who don't know that these opportunities are available. And secondly, which is which breaks my heart? Is people seeing opportunities and automatically assuming that those are not for that?

Shawna  22:51
Well, I mean, a couple of things come to mind. You know, Senator, earlier, you said something about mentorship versus sponsorship and mentorship being different, which it very much is. But I think these opportunities that you're talking about, that's where the sponsorship comes in this visibility, right? First of all, championing somebody so that they are visible and can demonstrate what they've got. Because if you're not given the opportunity to show off your stuff, how can you do that? That's one of the reasons I jumped off that treadmill. I tell. I tell people all the time, yeah, I did that thing. I tried to climb this ladder as I tried to break through those barriers. Until one day, I was on this treadmill, I'm going nowhere. And it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter how many letters I have behind my name. It doesn't matter how many languages I speak how many countries I've lived in, what education I have, what jobs I've had, who I know, it doesn't matter. So I was like, Screw this, I'm getting off the treadmill, and I'm building my own gym. Plus, when you are working for somebody else, and you're not made privy to the opportunities to what's out there, you don't come with that social capital that other people that are coming with that you can leverage or even that generational capital where you've had a parent or grandparent before you that can tell you hey, when you're in this situation, here's how you navigate that you do feel like you're on your own. And so you know, that's why I'm not wearing it today. But I usually have this elephant pendant, because I love elephants, because they're the matriarchs, yes, you know, the elephant family follows that matriarch. She is strong, and she is intelligent, and she is a leader. And I love that and I'm like, we are capable. And you're right. Many folks don't reach out for help. They don't even know what to ask. And so having that stealth anti around, I can see the benefits there. Right. And you know, Yolandie I wanted to speak to one other thing you were talking about, about this man that was giving you advice and how you sort of took that advice and you said okay, here's how I can make it mine or make it work for me. It made me think about how many times do we take something somebody's given us and contort ourselves to fit into that space. And so I feel like we don't get to be authentic in those spaces. We're still trying to wear somebody else's suit to get through the world. And look, I get it. There's politics, there's games that have to be played. Sometimes I hate that stuff. But that is still where we are in many cases. So when you can break through all that BS, and you've got someone in your corner that can support you and be like, Hey, okay, have you ever been through an Ikea? Yes. Okay. So let me describe IKEA, at least the ones that I have been in, I've been in several, but they're all pretty much the same. You walk in the front door, there's typically an elevator or escalator, you go upstairs, then there's these beautiful showrooms. There's all these like, Okay, here's our furniture, Harrison sample rooms, how you could set this up, you navigate and there's usually arrows on the floor, it could be like taped on the floor, or they're the lights that are projecting arrows and you follow these arrows and you weave in and out in zigzag, look up an Ikea. There's so many stories and jokes about it, okay? Until finally, you've made your way through the maze of IKEA. And then you find yourself going back down the stairs, where now there's the space where you buy things like forks, okay. Then there's the shopping space. And then you check out there's also like a restaurant and all this stuff. But you can get yourself lost in IKEA. But you're following these arrows all the way through. Having a sponsor or a mentor is like the person showing you the secret doors and IKEA so you don't have to walk through bedding to get to lighting.

Shawna  26:29
Y'all have been to IKEA know what I'm talking about? I just want a lamp. Why do I have to walk through the couches in the beds, I just want a lamp, right? But there's these doors one day are walking, I was like, Oh my God, there's like a little square window in the door. And I could see the lighting side on the other side. I was like, Are we allowed to go through that door? Well, guess what you are. But if nobody shows you those doors, you're taking the long route around and you might not ever get to lighting. That was See how's that for metaphors? Oh, I love that. We need mentors and sponsors to show us the magic doors yo, like really literally how to navigate these spaces. Because if you haven't had somebody before you, if you don't have generational knowledge, maybe you are like a first generation graduate. If you are a first generation professional in a white collar position, no one else in your family. Where are you going to get that from? Yeah.

27:23
And very often, here's the isn't the nasty sort of side angle to that is that very often you will find very powerful and accomplished women in those high positions. But they've been placed in those positions in isolation. Oh, yes. Support Network. And you'll see them typically brought in to check off the list of d i is just Oh, we did that. And then watch the women fail. Well see, we tried, you know, and nothing worked. So it's it's understanding. I mean, you mentioned, you know, playing the game. It's understanding that this is game playing, and it is about who holds the power. Yeah. And it's trying to break through that.

Yolandie  28:09
Yeah, I think an important part of playing that game or recognizing that it is a game and who holds the power is also recognizing, like Shawna said, when to jump off the treadmill and walk away because sometimes there is no way to snatch the key. It's, it's just not going to happen. And that was my experience as well. Like, it didn't matter how much education I had, how many languages I was, you know, learning and actively bettering myself what courses I taken, my public speaking was excellent, it did not matter. Because I was I was not welcome in that upper echelon, shall we say, just to kind of further prove that point. So I went to school originally wanted to be a fashion designer decided I only needed a business education because all the creative stuff you can pick up on the interwebs anywhere you want. And I got two associate's degrees and decided that was enough to go start my online later went back and got my bachelor's. And after I graduated with my bachelor's, I applied to over 200 jobs, and did not even get but three interviews, I think. And then a couple of years later, when I decided to get back on the horse, and like start putting applications out there. I had read a study about names, and my name is very unusual. I love my name. I think it's beautiful. But I know that it's unusual, and it carries some assumptions with IT people make when they read the name. And so I dropped my first name and use my middle name, which is Joe and got an interview from a very large company. I will not mention which company it was. I didn't end up getting the position. It was you know, all the way across the country and they went with a more local candidate, which was easier for them. But I was not surprised that that interview came through.

Sandra  29:55
There was a study recently where these two guys just sent out the same resume, but with different names, and it was just across the board. The male Western sounding name was the one that got the interview, right?

Yolandie  30:10
Yeah, I had read one that they did with college students where they handed the same resume to the class one group half of the group got the resume with the male's name and the other got the resume with a female's name. But everything on there was exactly the same. And those who had the male's resume said that, you know, he was more capable, they liked him better. He sounded like he was a better fit. And those who had the females resume, said that she didn't seem like she knew exactly what she was doing. And she probably wasn't totally qualified. And that was the only difference was the name. Well, I was blown away.

Shawna  30:46
There is an article I think in the Financial Times, I'll post it in the show notes for folks, if you're curious about this. And I hope I don't say it wrong, but I think it's Jose and Joe or something like that, where they did the same thing. And like the amount of money actual money. Like sometimes we say there's a black tax write for black folks, you know, where it's just there's all this other stuff that we have to do to try to get even to the starting the same starting line. But there is actual money involved, like the amount of money that's spent on like extra degrees, certificates getting certified and things, the money that it takes to just whatever you've got to do to try to boost yourself, you end up paying so much more so than any salary that you'd get if you were to do sort of like a checks and balances, they're come out so far below. And so they compare like the name like Jose and the name like Joe, and those might not be exact, but it'll be in the show notes. So you can check it out and correct me later. But that's the same idea. And then there's like the article about resume whitening, where people will whiten, I'm doing air quotes white in their name, so they get a call. And if you've ever Have you ever heard of the author Austin, Channing Brown, she's a black woman. Her parents named her Austin, so she would sound like a white man. Wow.

32:06
But it's this. I mean, we were talking earlier Yolandie, we were talking about, you know, clothing and what we wear. And this, to me is just another layer of clothing or another layer of you know, you have to assume something else now, right on top of everything else that you do, you're being masked, in a way. 

Sandra  32:27
Yeah. Yep. So that you can actually just get to the interview to get open the door. And I think there's a lot of deep breathing that occurs at this point for many of us, because we can be Miss construed. We can be misnamed. And the story that I often tell is the one when I was in a swimming pool changing room, I was just putting my swim hat on. And this woman approached me and said, Oh, you're Indian. She didn't say hello, she just walked up and said, You're Indian. I have Indian in my heritage. But I also have Sri Lankan, Portuguese, Dutch and Scots. And when I finally came to terms with my heritage, that's how I introduce myself, as well as Anglo as Anglo Indian, which is a different thing. You know, it's not the same as it means now, it refers to British colonialism. But this one wouldn't leave me alone. No, you are Indian. And I said, No, I'm not. And she kept following me. She literally followed me, I kept changing mirrors. And she kept following me around your Indian because I've been to India. And I've seen what the women looked like, and you look like that. So you're Indian. And it was at that point, I realized I had to make a real stand for who I was, because I hadn't done that. And clearly, the woman was ignorant. And there was some deficit for her that she needed to prove, since she'd been to India and she had a beaded necklace on. But that wasn't my story. That was her story. And now when I introduce myself, and people are genuinely interested, usually I'll just say I'm from Portland, or I'm from, I grew up in England, but if they are interested, it can open some incredible conversations about British colonialism, and the spice trade and the gem trade because all the way around India down to Sri Lanka, to Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, that trade route was what established a lot of those groups including my mother's group, which we'll call the Dutch burgers, her maiden name was Dan Daut. And the Dutch burgers will be EUR GH er, we used to call a burger Queen just to annoy. Family was started because of the Dutch traders who came through Sri Lanka stayed there and they started that colony there. That's how they started the rules of the Portuguese burgers and they were also part of my mother's family. So it was all this stuff that it was just interesting to unpack and not necessarily unpack with every single person you meet. Because you know the people in Starbucks are gonna get really annoyed with you. But it's just you know, when you do have people that you have who are really interested it Oh, opens these possibilities of understanding into culture that might be just closed down with one blanket statement.

Shawna  35:07
Oh, yeah. How did we make it back to changing rooms. We came full circle to the, to the horror of changing rooms. So not only is lighting in this mirror and my coach isn't here with caviar, but also I have this woman who's telling me who I am and you don't even know Oh, wait.

Sandra  35:32
Yeah, you know, there's a metaphorical stretch that I'm going to try for here. Then you do face people in your metaphorical changing room, who are trying to drape all these identities on top of you, you know, your coach will hand you your clear gin that's undiluted with anything else. You know, pure alcohol in this case, which means pure identity, there's a real stretch here, I realized this, this is who you are, this is who don't forget, this is who you are. Regardless of you know, how many cultures you belong to, what your background is, do not believe what these people are trying to put onto you, you know, they're trying to force you into the spandex pants or into the, you know, the crop tops. Nobody wants to see me in a crop top, let me let you know that now. It's just this is should be banned by law. But if you know if they're trying to make you do things is just you reach out for your coaches, you know, clear vodka or collegian or your you know, your fabulous drink there. And give yourself a shot to remember, this is who I

36:36
am. This is who I am, you know,

Yolandie  36:38
This is this conversation couldn't have come in a better week in my life. Because two days ago, three days ago, I had reached out in a podcast group for some appearances. And some white man decided to comment on my post and basically discredit my expertise and what I had to say. And that was that, that style trauma wasn't a thing that women do not experience this and this is just another person trying to tell you who and how to be. And at first, I was like, Who the hell are you to happen here. And then I took a deep breath. And I recorded and I told him, I was like, I'm sorry, this is a real thing. And I was like, tell this to the woman who's crying in the mirror, because she had to buy a size larger than she did last year, and now feels worthless. And the woman who is not wearing what she wants to because her mom convinced her that it's not for her body shape, or, you know, like I could have given numerous examples, I think I only do three. And then after I posted that I cried all day, because this man had tried just as the woman did in the fitting room with you're in the changing room with you, to tell you who you were, he was trying to tell me who I was. And I really struggled with it hard. And, you know, I took a nap. And I cried a little bit more. And then I went back to who I was, and what it is that I stand for, not only as a business, but as a person. And, you know, it was the exact opposite of what he was saying, which is why it upset me so deeply. And I think that that's an important part of it is that just because you know who you are, you know what you stand for. And you know, you can always go back to that, that doesn't mean that there won't be that weird interim, where it upsets you. And that's the part that you have to come to terms with before you confront this, you know, reawakening of yourself. 

Sandra  38:38
You're doing such vulnerable work, right? It's just here are all my internal organs, you know, quivering on the table for you. And here he comes along who knows nothing about what you're talking about. It doesn't relate to him. He can't understand it. He has his own trauma. Let's leave him with that. But that's his story. What you're doing is so irrelevant. I wish I'd had you around when I first had my daughter, and I was 50 pounds overweight, and I was so scared and disgusted with myself that I would look in Windows and have stores and hope that the people inside would not see me looking and feel disgusted and knowing that I would never dare to go inside the store. So it's just you know what, I just want to say that what you're doing is really important.

Shawna  39:26
Yes and Sandra, just like the woman in the changing room. This negativity doesn't just come in the shape of white men. You know, there are plenty of people who are certain that they know who you are, and will tell you and try to impose that upon you. Alright, ladies, thank you so much for spending this time with each other with me for sharing your stories. This has been fantastic. Sandra where in the world can we find you? We've got to learn more about stealth antes and mentorship. How do we find you?

Sandra  40:00
You can find me on Facebook it's wild women leaders of color asked to be added to the group because that's where all the cool stuff is got me

Shawna  40:10
I get my leather jacket and my shades?

Sandra  40:13
yes yeah enjoy mo-ped if you're lucky we've upgraded from the you know the pedal along scooter! I'm feeling kind of cool about that. So yeah, so as to join the group because that's where all the cool stuff going on. And also, I'm on LinkedIn.

Shawna  40:34
Amazing. Thank you so much. This is so fantastic. Galco check her out. We need this kind of good stuff in our lives.

Yolandie  40:43
Thanks so much. Thank you. Yeah,

Shawna  40:45
absolutely. Thanks Yolandie I'll be seeing you next time. Take care everybody. Bye. Okay, bye that does it for this episode. Thanks y'all so much for hanging out. I love it that you are here. Hey, if there's something that you want to talk about, or you know, questions you have anything like that, please send them my way. You know, you can write to me directly at true colors@shawnigan.com or you can head on over to true colors. cast.com you want to know more about diversity, equity inclusion work, you're interested in strategy, training, coaching, that sort of thing. And you can find me at True Colors D i.com. To offer true colors consulting. Y'all be safe out there. You know how it is, is. So be kind to one another. Share a smile with someone. And please if you have the opportunity, find a way to make someone feel welcome, love y'all. Talk to you soon.

Outro  42:04
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Dr. Shawna M. Gann

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