Confronting Anti-Blackness with Daniel Washington

Daniel Washington is an I/O Psychology Master's graduate with a passion for Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. He was born in New York City but raised in Atlanta, GA and moved back to New York City in August of 2018 to further his education in I/O Psychology. I received my Master's from Touro College in the summer of 2020. He is now I'm working towards furthering my career in Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion.

In this episode, Daniel talks with me about his identity journey and the way he has been working to confront the anti-Blackness that he grew up with. Realizing it was the first step - and what a hard realization! Check out this episode to hear his story.

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Transcript

Transcript by otter.ai

 

Welcome to our True Colors hosted by Shawna Gann. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial, racial, and ethnic enigma, and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.

Shawna  00:22

Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of our true colors. If you caught the most recent episode, which was a special episode, where Yolandie and I talked about the upcoming live action, Little Mermaid movie, you might have heard the good news. Congratulations to Yolandie. And her family, they have welcomed their new little one, Olivia, I'm so glad that she's able to take this time with her family. So for the next few episodes, it's going to be just you and me hanging out to talk about some really interesting and important topics. Our guest on this episode is Daniel Washington. If you've ever seen some of the articles on LinkedIn coming out of True Colors consulting, you might have seen Daniels name as a guest author. So I'm really glad to be here with him and having this conversation which is it's kind of a it's kind of a deep one not gonna lie, anti blackness, and how to deal with anti blackness when you're black, or if you have black heritage. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the conversation. Here we go.

Shawna  01:30

Hey, Daniel, welcome. How you doing?

01:33

I'm good. How are you this morning? Thank you for having me.

Shawna  01:36

Oh, I'm doing pretty good. And I'm so glad that you're here. You have such an interesting background. And I think a lot of your story folks can relate to there are people who are definitely going to be like, oh, yeah, I feel that. Thanks for being willing to share.

01:50

Thank you so much. And I'm really excited about talking. I'm talking about my story. Because I have so much that I'm that I really want to cover. I'm all about spreading awareness when it comes to di

Shawna  02:02

Yeah, I would imagine probably a lot of this passion has come from some of your lived experiences. Would you agree?

02:10

Yes, I definitely agree with that. I am passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion because it does personally relate to my own life story. And, and that's why I want to be able to tell my own story so people can learn more about me. And it also drives me to be a leader and and and lead by example for other young and aspiring minority professionals who I'm who I'm someday one wants to be in my position.

Shawna  02:37

Yeah, that's awesome. So you describe yourself as being from two places? Can you tell us a little bit about that?

02:44

Sure. Um, I was born in New York City, but raised in Atlanta, Georgia. So my roots are are in New York. And I moved back to New York four years ago to further my education in industrial organizational psychology. So um, that that is my background, and I went to Touro College to get my Master's in, in IO psychology. When I was in graduate school. That's when I really started to explore diversity, equity and inclusion. And and I said, Hey, this is, um, this is a field that I really want to specialize in and to get into, because because it does relate to my own personal values, and it does relate to my own life story. So here I am today.

Shawna  03:25

Yeah. Okay. Just just as a little asterisk for the listeners. So folks know, this is what's really cool. So Daniel and I are actually in the same program at the same school. Right? So the Chicago School of Professional Psychology, I've done the consulting track. Are you on the IO tracker consulting track?

03:40

I'm also on on the consulting track, too.

Shawna  03:43

Yeah. So that's just a little fun note. We didn't know that when at first. Yeah, it was pretty cool. That was really cool. Yes, exactly. And so my story is very similar, right? You know, I've been doing dei work in different capacities for several years even before pursuing business psychology just because of my own background. When I started many, many years ago, you know, holding workshops and things like that and then when I moved into education and lived overseas that contributed a lot to my dei work in terms of cultural intelligence and natural fluency.

04:16

I remember you telling me that and I thought that was very fascinating because um, I do want to learn and learn about Diversity Equity and Inclusion from a multicultural perspective and I'm that's why I'm I have been interested in going overseas, specifically to Europe and exploring the way that they approach dei because I know that there are some cultural differences there compared to on to on the US. So if I do have that kind of work experience under my belt, then I'm really think that I'm not going to give me some leverage when it comes to talking about multicultural issues in the workplace and how it relates to di

Shawna  04:51

Yeah, 100%. And also, a lot of the things that are salient here aren't exactly the same and places like Europe. So for example, Race is a huge factor here, just given the history of the US the history of the enslavement of black people, indigenous people losing their land, like there's so many race based issues here. And yes, I'm saying race. And for those of you who have listened to the Start Here episode, you'll know that I use that as the descriptor because a lot of people are familiar with that. But I 100% subscribe to the notion that race is socially constructed. Just a little side note. However, in Europe, you know, most of the issues really stem around gender issues. And instead like gender equality, equity and opportunities for people of different genders. And here's the thing, it goes beyond that, like specifically thinking about race here how that's compared in Europe, more folks there are considering things like immigration and nationality.

05:48

Right, exactly, definitely empathize more. And I noticed that too, because I am used to intern for a UK based nonprofit organization called Charity, culture catalysts. And when I did intern for that company, as a diversity, equity and inclusion intern, they did talk a lot about immigration issues, as it relates to um, discrimination. So um, so um, that's a cultural nuance that I did pick up on. And and it's very different from the US, because here we are obsessed with race. I see that all the time. We live in a culture that is totally obsessed with race, because this country was built on on race. So we do have the foundation of racial stratification. And that ideology is deeply embedded within our social institutions.

Shawna  06:33

Yeah, I would go as far as to say it wasn't built on race, but it was built on racism or racist ideals. Yeah. Well, let's get back to you. Because I know we could talk Dei, all day long, all day long. So let's talk about you. So you're now in New York, studying and you talked about kind of your realisation that you wanted to focus on dei once you get to grad school, but what was it like for you in undergrad, you and I have talked before so I kind of know the story and tell our folks what it was like for you moving from your childhood home in the bubble. That's all I'm gonna say. I'm gonna let you tell the story. Moving from there to undergrad,

07:11

while I'm undergrad was a very eye opening experience for me because that's when I really started to learn about different aspects of of my identity. And that's when I really started to grow into my own. So before I went to college, I grew up in white suburbia in the south, which was a very challenging and lonely experience. Because I didn't know a lot of people who were like myself, I was a black and Latino gay kid, I was closeted. And I had a lot of self hating behaviors about myself, because again, I grew up in white suburbia, and I was a product of mine environments. So I didn't really grow up embracing my blackness, or my Latin identity, I felt like I had to assimilate into white middle class culture. So I definitely adopted a lot of internalized racism and, and a lot of anti black beliefs, because I become because I wanted to be the quote unquote, model minority, which meant that I always sought to seek white people's approval and validation. What did that look like? What did that look like? That's really interesting. So um, whenever I'm whenever my white peers would tell me that I'm like, an Oreo for, for example, or a white person trapped in a black person's body. I actually took those statements as compliments, because I really didn't dissect them and I didn't understand what they met during that time. So now that I'm older and more educated on racism, and and and how it really operates, and how multi layered it is, I realized now that um, those experiences were examples of micro aggressions.

Shawna  08:52

Yeah, yeah. understatement, understatement. I imagine that so because so this is I want to kind of hang out in the space a little bit, because this is something that's been a topic among my peers in the DEI world, you know, we have our community, our network, and we've been talking about how white supremacy shows up in black lives all the time. And a lot of black folks like for a second will be like, I am not, you know, like people will say, No way in hell am I adopting white supremacist ideals, or no way, am I contributing to white supremacist culture. I'm not saying you're white supremacist, but there are so many ways that contribute

09:33

to the culture and I was one of those people. I was very much an Uncle Tom, I used to. I know, it's very painful, but I've had to come to terms with that realization because I was very anti black. I had a lot of internalized racism. I thought that I was better than assert on certain black people who I thought personified the negative stereotypes of blackness, so I thought that I was above them because because subconsciously, I thought that I was better at assimilating into white, middle class culture. So I thought that I could quote unquote make it and not experience racism, I thought that I was the exception to that rule. But then life finally hit me with reality. And when in when I started to really experience overt racial discrimination, um, that was like an eye opener for me, because then I am realized that I too, can also be othered. And people can also stigmatize me because of my blackness and how I look. So it doesn't matter how well I get along with white people, how educated I am, or how well I speak. And this white supremacist society and and in culture, no person of color is exempt from being othered. And they and no person of color is exempt from racial discrimination. I've had to digest that and swallow that. So that's when I learned to decolonize my mind and really address these white supremacist ideologies that I'm that I was internalizing.

Shawna  11:05

Okay, so I'm starting to get pretty, pretty big on breaking down some terminology, because people use terms in different ways. Or sometimes it's unfamiliar to some of the listeners. What do you mean, when you say decolonizing? My mind that's deep? Can you talk about that a little bit?

11:21

Yes, that is very deep on. I love using the word decolonize. Because that means that I'm, I'm able to unlearn everything that brainwashed me and taught me to not value my blackness. Another example of me harboring anti blackness, was wearing blue, green and gray contact lenses back in high school and telling people that they were my real eyes because I wanted to look more exotic and less black. During that time, I didn't realize that that was also contributing to anti blackness. And, and by the way, I really hate using the word exotic, but in this context, I just have to use that word. Because I'm, because that's the word that was very common in my vocabulary back then. But, um, the word exotic is actually very dehumanizing. And it's another way of contributing to anti blackness, because in this culture and, and society, if we look more exotic, or, or if we have a closer proxy to whiteness than that gives us more social advantages.

Shawna  12:28

Oh, my God, you are speaking the gospel. And it's painful gospel. Yeah. So first of all, I totally rocked the gray contact lenses. I couldn't get away with blue, or hazel because it didn't look right. But I did gray. And here's the thing is back in the day, because I got I don't know, I got a few years on, you're

12:49

probably no older than 25.

Shawna  12:51

Yeah, right. Here's a hat. My son is 23. So that's not possible. But I but I think yeah, so how about this, even even in those days, when I was wearing the, the contacts, like I had a astigmatism and so they weren't even fitting, right, because they didn't make them for different shapes of eyes and things like that I was still going to wear those things. I didn't tell people that they were real, but I just didn't tell them that they weren't. And you know, talking about that whole exotic vacation thing. I did a study, specifically on black multiracial women who talked about this, this exotic vacation turns into sexualization. So he talked about it being dehumanizing right here, you're taking a person that that people are finding exotic, and it becomes this fetish, it becomes objectifying. And so you no longer see this person as a person, either. So I'm really glad that you brought up that point, because that is something that is very common, I believe, for folks who are multiracial, or what I like to say is racially ambiguous, because even if you don't have mixed heritage, you could still be racially ambiguous. And

14:01

if you look racially ambiguous, then then then you are considered to be more beautiful than I'm then I'm someone who has black features, and it looks more visibly black.

Shawna  14:12

And that is that white supremacist ideology there. Yeah. Because with that, like you said that proximity to whiteness, that equals power, especially in America. And that's, that's a pretty rough thing to swallow to accept it is the truth. And so, you know, when you talk about decolonizing your mind, I mean, like I said, I know it feels deep, but I think people need to know that it is ingrained in us. I don't care what your racial background is. In America, and in many places around the world. There is this rack and stack on ranking that happens this social hierarchy of racialization that happens starting with white being the the default, that is right and more than just the default, the ideal and we see that happening around the world with skin lightening with plastic surgery to change your features. Exactly. More Western, you know, some Euro centric my wife specifically, right? So you came to this realization that, you know being called things like Oreo. I mean, I have had that one before.

15:18

Now I'm very obnoxious and we don't realize how absurd these statements are, until until we really digest them and dissect them. Yeah, I've had to unpack a lot of things over the years,

Shawna  15:31

I'm still unpacking the things we do, it's still

15:34

unlearning white supremacy is an everyday process. And it really is a lifelong process because we are going to constantly make mistakes, but then um, but then we are going to be aware that I'm that and we have these certain beliefs and ideologies, so and we have to be able to come to terms with them. Unlearning is about self awareness. It's about patience, and it's about being kind to yourself.

Shawna  16:00

Yeah, that's true. And it's not always easy. It's not. And it's hard. It's just really hard to face it. Like to think that you're contributing to something like that. And it's so ingrained,

16:12

yeah, racism is built into the DNA of this country, it's the foundation of the US. So if you are saying that this country is not inherently racist, then um, then obviously, you are living in a bubble. And, and you're also being willfully ignorant, and a lot of white people are an art and very, um, willfully ignorant when it comes to learning about racism, and acknowledging the fact that, um, that they are the beneficiaries of a racist system, regardless of what they personally believe in, because I'm racism is not an individual character flaw. And that's what a lot of white people get wrong. Racism is systemic racism is economic racism is political, cultural, absolutely. All of that it's, it's very multi layered.

Shawna  16:57

And as we were saying, It ain't just white people that, that think that or don't get it right, like, you can have companies owned by run by black folks that still operate in a very white supremacist way. Exactly. That's what I think is a misnomer. Or some myth. People will think like, if I'm black, I can't be anti black. You can. Yeah, it's a freaky thing to realize. But you absolutely can.

17:25

You can be black. That's right. Yeah, absolutely can

Shawna  17:28

being Black does not make you immune, it should hopefully wake you up and make you feel more aware. But you're definitely not immune to it do, you know,

17:40

I was very anti black. And when my white peers used to say that I was an Oreo, or unlike a white person trapped in a black person's body, I thought that those were compliments, because again, I am one to have a close proximity to whiteness, because for me that that equals power. And I thought that that would give me a leg up in society. Unfortunately, a lot of people of color and and black people do reinforce white supremacy by having those internalized beliefs. And then they concern on their own community and, and not get back to their community because they want to be better than the majority of their demographic group. Yeah. So they will act we ask to a white supremacist system and a white supremacist culture. It happens all the time. And a lot of black politicians also reinforce white supremacist culture and white supremacist ideologies to it's still happening today.

Shawna  18:35

Yes, it is very openly happening.

18:38

Mm hmm. It's giving them power. If it's making them money, then they're not going to challenge the system. That's why they support it.

Shawna  18:47

You know, there's even some black scholars. I'm thinking of John McWhorter, who is a person that says, hey, black folks, we got to stop whining about, you know, the system, the system, the oppression, and instead just turn it around. We got power. Let's use it. Well, I do believe in that. But I feel like that sort of thinking, yes. Is that gets dangerous because it's starting to play into the pick yourselves up by your bootstraps mentality. And it's like, Hey, listen, a lot of us out here don't even have boots to how you talk about bootstraps. If that bothers me, I respect John McWhorter in his academic mindset. I know that he's very into language, which I am too, but as a person who's very into language, I think that it's important that we are considering our culture and not to forget it. Yes, I get that whining in itself doesn't do anything that doesn't affect change. You know, feeling guilty or ashamed of one's anti blackness does not change anything or affect change. But I don't have to sit here and accept it.

19:56

Yeah. Have you also noticed that certain black and brown Leaders and anti politicians are are able to succeed faster compared to others because I'm because I'm they don't challenge a white supremacist system. Have you also noticed that too, if you don't challenge the system, then I'm then I'm you're more unlikely to succeed. Because I'm because you are keeping your head down and you are being silent, that shows that you are accepting the system. And, um, and you are accepting the status quo. So you will be, quote unquote, more and more acceptable or, or more tolerated, what's within the white supremacist spaces?

Shawna  20:35

Yeah, so this is something that I've considered to and I won't condemn people who are just trying to live their lives, listen, right, keeping your head down, is a coping mechanism. It's, it's a way of surviving, right? I, well, you know, I wish that folks would challenge the system. I also understand that we all got to survive out here. And that could be a survival technique, the thing that makes me take pause is when those messages are coming from a person who was influential in a position of leadership, who is a person who's teaching, because I just think it's a little dangerous to say, hey, we're beyond this, because we are not. Now if you are a person that is not out here trying to influence others, you just live in your life. And the best way that you can live your life by survival is to keep your head down and keep quiet. Yeah, I have no condemnation for anybody like that. My one of the things that I always tell folks that true colors, like when I'm doing workshops and stuff, I'm not telling you to get out your paint and make a sign and go downtown and start marching. Right, that is not for everybody, that is not for everybody. However, we can be responsible by, you know, making sure that we're registered to vote for people who are eligible to vote, being, you know, responsible in that way, and then actually turning out by the way, like showing up and casting votes, that is exercising your civic duty. And that is how we can affect you at change without having to march in the streets. You know, um, also, you talked about microaggressions. If you're a person who's a bystander, and you see this happening, there are ways that you can interrupt that I'm not saying and again, you don't have to like, put on your social justice warrior armor and start going headstrong, full on to people, you don't have to have your fist in the air. And I do and all that to make a difference. You could just say, Hey, why did you say that? What was that about?

22:33

What does that mean? Exactly?

Shawna  22:35

Yeah, what does that mean? I don't get that. That's not cool. Oh, that's not cool. To me. It's okay to do that.

22:41

micro aggression is subtle discrimination. And a lot of people still don't don't understand what micro aggressions are, they can appear to be innocuous or or not harmful, but um, but and they still are harmful because because they still do communicate discriminatory messages about certain groups of people, especially on particularly marginalized groups of people. So um, so they're still very insidious, like racism. Racism is very insidious, because it's so multi layered, and it's so complex, like white supremacy, they are all interconnected. Um, it's about it's about power dynamics.

Shawna  23:19

Yeah. Well, can you take us back because what you said before was, you know, I took some of these things as compliments, which is often one of the characteristics of microaggressions you walk away like, I think that was a compliment, but I'm not sure. Yeah. Right. Like, it's one of those underhanded things where you're like, I'm pretty sure that that wasn't right. But also Yeah, like a compliment. So I'm not sure

23:41

got it funny, but, but um, it didn't. It sounded like a backhanded compliment. Deep down. I really did have some cognitive dissonance back then. Because I didn't know how to really take those comments, but I just accepted them because, because in high school, I didn't know about di, I didn't know what micro aggressions were, I didn't have the language or or, or the vocabulary to really define those experiences. So I just took them at face value. And I did convince myself that my white peers were just complimenting me and accepting me, because I wasn't like those black people.

Shawna  24:21

Right? Yeah. And that's typically how it goes. So at what point did you realize, Oh, I get it. So these things that I thought were complements really aren't. Like you said, you kind of thought yourself, Oh, I'm better than that. Because I

24:38

am the exception to the norm. Exactly. So

Shawna  24:40

when was it when you're like, I get it now.

24:44

I came to the realization that I wasn't different from other black people. When I'm when I went to college. I went to Georgia State University, which is one of the most racially and ethnically diverse schools in the country. So I was exposed to people from from all walks of life and The majority of my social circle consisted of black and brown people, particularly on LGBTQ people. And and they taught me a lot about intersectionality and what it means to be black. So a lot of them also called me out on my internalized racism and anti anti blackness. I really didn't deserve that. Because growing up in in white suburbia, no one really called me out on on having those toxic beliefs because everyone around me was also very ignorant on racism, white privilege, microaggressions and anti de I'm, we didn't have any of those conversations back then. Yeah, my so a Mayan black experience. And white middle class, suburbia was all about assimilation and keeping my head down. And, and, and not talking about my racialized experiences. But um, but everything was laid out on the table when I went to college, and I had to really do a lot of introspection and come to terms with the fact that I was indeed, brainwashed this whole time, I was brainwashed into believing that racism can't come my way. And that white supremacy is non systemic. I've had to unlearn those thought patterns. Yeah, and decolonize my mind, that's when the whole decolonization process took place.

Shawna  26:23

Thanks for talking about that. Because sometimes I think we don't know exactly when those changes happen when we start to see right. And so having people call that out, was that painful? Was that difficult for you?

26:36

It was very painful, because I had to question my whole identity and everything I've been taught. Yeah, it was painful at first,

Shawna  26:46

you know, one of the things that I've struggled with the being or feeling black enough? Yes.

26:52

I'm glad you said that, too. What are your thoughts on that, I can also relate to that, because I do consider myself to be a second a second culture black person, so not only am I black, am, am I black, but I'm also Latino. My family is from the Dominican Republic. And, and, and growing up in, in, in the south being Afro Latinos, is is like being a rare unicorn, because there aren't that many of us down there. So if you're black in the south, then a lot of people will automatically assume that I'm bad on your African American, which isn't always the case of black diaspora is so huge and and diverse. So it wasn't until I moved back to New York City that, um, that, um, I also began to explore my black culture more and embrace my Latin identity. And it wasn't until I moved to New York City that I realized that I also had intersecting identities. I'm black, Latino, and gay, I have multiple identities and and they're all a part of me. So So I no longer feel like I have to choose one over the other. I'm black and Latino, I'm at the same time and Latino is not a race,

Shawna  28:00

I would love for you to explain it. Because people are often like, Why do forms say, mark your race? And then the next question is, are you of Hispanic origin? Yes or No? Or, you know, people are like, wow, like, because because it truly is like, you can be a white person with Hispanic roots, or a black person with Hispanic roots.

28:24

So will you talk through that

28:26

a little bit? Yeah, of course. And of US culture, and we have a certain mental perception of what a typical Latino person looks like. So and when we think about the Latin identity, a black person doesn't typically come to mind because blackness has been so disassociated from the Latin identity and and and the latin community. So a lot of people not just in in the south, but but all over the US don't really understand who an Afro Latino is. And an Afro Latino is, is a black person with Latin heritage, that's um, that's really the most basic definition of an Afro Latino and there are millions of us in Latin America, but and we don't receive a lot of representation in Latin media or or in the American media either. So um, that's why people are really not educated on the Afro Latino identity or an Afro Latino culture and and in history, but um, but in reality, the black diaspora is actually huge and Latin America and into Latin. America has a lot of black history, just like the US. In fact, Latin America probably has even more black history than the US but a lot of people don't really know that because again, they weren't educated. So so um, ignorance becomes perpetuated when there's no education or exposure.

Shawna  29:45

I'm so glad that you talked about that. You know, one of the things that I say is there are no loopholes in humanity. And I want people to know that because what happens with people who are racially ambiguous whether they're racially ambiguous because they're multi ethnic or because they're multiracial. or because whatever reason is you fall into the societal loophole where it's like, you don't represent this enough, you don't represent this enough. We need to have some representation. So then you get tokenized. Like, you're black enough to represent black folks in this thing, but you're not so threatening because you're not so black. So, you know, the safe black person. And that's kind of messed up to be used in that way, too. So, you know, you do fall into this weird social loophole, but I'm like, Hey, yo, we're talking about human beings. Are there are loopholes in humanity, it always gets me. So I appreciate you talking about that. I got one more question for you. And academic literature, the term Latin X was born from scholarly work because people wanted to be more inclusive, instead of talking about gender, but, or assigning gender to words, but I heard you describe yourself as black and Latino. What are your thoughts and feelings on using the term Latin X or Latina x?

31:10

That's really a question on the turn, Latin accent is a very academic term, and it's still a term that's not widely used in the Latino community. Spanish is a very gendered language. So so a lot of native Spanish speakers have been taught to speak the language a certain way because of how they grew up. And because a lot of native speak, Spanish speakers are not in academia, and they haven't been exposed to the term Latin x. So um, so they really don't have a personal connection to that term. It's not um, it's not what they grew up with. But um, but I personally am using the term Latin x because I do have an intersecting identities and anthem is a very inclusive term that does include LGBTQ people within the latin community and anthem, it also includes on queer people who are non binary meaning meaning that they don't subscribe to the male and female gender binary construct, because like I said, I'm Spanish and is a very, is um, is a very gendered language.

Shawna  32:11

So I narrate gendered language, not binary

32:14

gendered language, yeah. So I can understand why certain people would, um, coined the term Latin x, but then I can, then I can also understand why other people within Latin community wouldn't personally adopt that term within their own vocabulary. So um, it's really a mixed bag for me, and I have mixed feelings about it. I personally use the term but I'm not going to enforce my own beliefs or values onto another person. So um, it's up to them to decide if and if they want to use that term or not. I just like to use that term, because, because for me, it reinforces inclusivity. And it does help me acknowledge the fact that I'm intersectionality also exists within the latin community, too. It's not just an American thing. A lot of people have so many different and diverse identities within the latin community. So and we also have to be able to acknowledge that. And we also have to acknowledge the fact that if you're white and not part of the Latino community or culture, then it's not really your place to decide how they should use certain terms or, um, or how they should express themselves. So um, so um, so we also have to get into that too.

Shawna  33:31

You know, I'm glad you said that, too. That was one of the conversations I had with some folks before on the podcast is like, hey, let's not be assigning things to people when you're not even part of that community. Yeah, exactly. And so I just wanted to ask you about that, you know, you talk about Spanish being this gendered language, specifically binary gendered language. That's one thing about German, you know, I learned to speak German, and there's a neutral gender there, right? If you've ever heard there, DDoS right there is the masculine D is the feminine and Das is neutral. And so it's interesting that some languages are already built for that. And we are learning in our culture now to try to break away from that binary. And that's tough to do for a lot of folks. A lot of practice and like like you said earlier with some other things some unlearning.

34:20

Well, Daniel, this has been so great. Thank you for sharing your time with us and

Shawna  34:24

your story with your knowledge with

34:27

that was a really important conversation. Otherwise,

34:30

yeah, me too. Thank you. So tell folks where we can find you.

34:34

You can find me on LinkedIn My full name is Jim Washington on my LinkedIn so so obviously want to connect with me, then um, then feel free to send me a request. And I can talk more about my FBI work and I'm always open to questions. I'm always available. I love connecting with with with new people and I really enjoy when will take interest in my work.

34:59

Awesome. Well, I know you and I will be in touch. So everybody else reach out to Daniel check out and you can get a true color melting and also see some of the writing that needs to be done

Shawna  35:09

there. Just want to thank you again, Daniel.

35:12

Thank you for having me. Absolutely. Appreciate it

35:26

you've been listening to our True Colors