Authenticity Under Pressure: The Evolving Role of DEI and Mixed-Race Identity

In this insightful episode, Dr. Shawna Gann sits down with DEI experts Lauren Dike and Katrina Liew Wilson for a candid discussion on the shifting landscape of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI). The conversation explores the evolving role of DEI in the workplace, the pressures of being a "talking head" in the field, and the challenges of racial and cultural identity. Lauren and Katrina share their personal journeys navigating mixed-race backgrounds, dealing with imposter syndrome, and embracing authenticity while leading change. They also address the complexity of DEI rebranding, the struggle for collective healing, and the nuanced experiences of being Black and multiracial in America.

Tune in to hear about the intersection of wellness, inclusion, and belonging, as well as the power of redefining what it means to "fit in" versus truly belonging. The episode concludes with thoughts on Kamala Harris's potential presidency, and the ongoing need for hope and active participation in shaping a more inclusive future.

This episode offers a refreshing take on DEI that challenges common assumptions and invites listeners to rethink how we approach identity and equity in today's society.

Extra Stuff to Check Out:

• Kamala Harris on The Breakfast Club (2019)
• Tema Okun on Her Mythical Paper on White Supremacy
• White Supremacy Culture – Still Here...A Short History of the Original Article 

Want to be a guest or know someone who should join us? Click this link to complete the guest interest form.

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Transcript

Introduction  00:06

Welcome to Our True Colors, hosted by Shawna Gann. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial riddle, an ethnic enigma and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.

Shawna  00:22

Hi, everyone. I hope that you have been well. I am glad to welcome you to another episode of our true colors. Kat and Rachel won't be joining me today, but I have some great guests for you. We're going to be diving deep into the intersection of well being and inclusion with two incredible people who bring a wealth of knowledge and unique perspectives to this space. Joining us is Lauren DK, a DEI expert and neurological fitness trainer. And we'll also be joined by Katrina Lev Wilson, an equity centered people leader with over 20 years of experience in Human Resources dei and wellness, we're going to be talking about the importance of nervous system regulation in achieving true inclusion, navigating equity work and how our individual journeys shape the way we show up. I'm so excited to have them both here with us today, so let's get into it. I'm glad that both of you are here. Lauren and Katrina, share a little something with our listeners, just so they know who they're going to be listening to today. Yeah. So

01:28

My name is Lauren. I currently live in Atlanta, Georgia, but I consider myself a New Englander. I grew up in Central Jersey, so I've been in Atlanta for seven years. I am a well being and dei consultant. So my work is at the intersection of wellness and inclusion, belonging, understanding that the both cannot exist without the other. I am an athlete. So at one point in my life, I was a professional figure competitor. I ran track and bills in college, and I just will always be a lifelong athlete. So that's just a little bit about me. That is fantastic.

Shawna  02:03

I am not a lifelong athletic nobody. You know how people will say, like, I'm not. I'll run. If I'm running from something, I probably would just be like, you know, I guess it's my time. I just can't. There was a year that I pretended I was gonna be a runner. It was really cool. I came back, I go, Oh, that was so you're my husband. Wow, you did that whole thing. I'm like, I mean, there was walking in between, but I did it like I was very proud. So I'm very impressed. No,

02:32

and if it makes me feel better, running is terrible for the joint. So as I've gotten older, I walk more than I run anyway, so

Shawna  02:39

I appreciate hearing that I will not feel quite as bad. I'm always so like impressed, though, and I admire people who can do it. You know, Katrina. I'd love to hear a little bit about you too.

02:50

Hi. Nice to be here with you all. My name is Katrina. My pronouns are she, her. I'm an equity centered people leader, and I've been doing human resources, dei and wellness inclusion work for over 20 years. I just hide my age really well, maybe because of the nutrition and health focus that I have as well. But I typically have been finding myself in a lot of neurodiversity, inclusion work and advocacy, and kind of taking a more behind the scenes approach to centering equity as we see this constant shift in the work that we've been doing in this space. Oh yes,

Shawna  03:22

I would love to be bringing that into the conversation today. One of the things that I'd like to start talking about, I guess I'm just going to open it up and ask, What's it like out there for you right now, maybe we'll start with Katrina. Since you mentioned the shift, I'm really curious.

03:36

My shift was forced on me. I can be very transparent and honest. I was laid off in September from a very high level senior director position doing equity and inclusion work, and it's a gut punch that I didn't expect. But at the same time, instead of me settling into panic mode, I just settled into this being like a universal opportunity for me to prioritize my life, my own personal wellness, and maybe figure that I always had centered equity in the work that I do. I got into dei because of being extremely intersectional, being a mixed race black woman who identifies as queer, neurodivergent, single mom, all the things. And so I knew that no matter what I landed in, I was going to always continue the work that I was doing. And I pretty solidly feel happy that I'm not this talking head anymore. I'm not this person that people look to as the number one person who's gonna fix everything, and I feel like I can get more people accountable to do the work with me and the different modes of work that I'm in now. Yeah,

Shawna  04:33

so that sounded like a pretty important preposition. There's difference between doing and solving things for people and having them work with you. Absolutely. I'd love to hear a little bit more about not being the talking head. What makes that a relief for you? Well,

04:51

I mean, particularly in the state of Florida, which is where I lived, I've actually since relocated. I live in Philadelphia, so much happier. But I was. Definitely brought into a position that was propositioned as being in an inaugural position, and ended up finding out that it was a funded position, which that's fine, but being in the state that I was in, it was more so to check a box, to have a person in a role that had the terms equity and inclusion in it. And then when I came in with all of my wonderful background and ideas, they were quickly shot down, and I was seen again as this antagonistic person who was telling these people that they were doing the wrong thing, when that's what I was hired to do. So at the same time as the layoff happened, I was already seeing the writing on the wall, and I had a choice to make of either freaking out, which, you know your nervous system does that being in these positions, you're constantly in fight or flight, or realize that this is an opportunity for me to kind of take back what I want to do in the work and not have to be this person that's supposed to write a statement and craft an email and plan on these events that people ultimately didn't want to do in the first

Shawna  05:59

Place. Yeah, that sounds pretty powerful. Taking it back, yeah, yeah.

06:03

Back to Basics. It's always going to have equity in anything you do, regardless of the title that you

Shawna  06:09

have. Lauren, how does any of this resonate with you at all? I've seen you nodding along as we're having this conversation.

06:17

All of it has resonated. I don't even know where to start this overwhelming feeling, because I have been doing, been a DI Consultant since 2020 so I was one of the people that after George Floyd, there was a boom, and I my first job, I'd even submit a resume. People were just like, we need help. You're a woman of color. You want to make a career shift. If you're willing to take a pay cut, just help me. Right? And coming from corporate America, where was often the only black woman, often the only woman in the rooms I was in real estate finance was all white men. I saw it as a means to make the workplace better for people that were like me. But also a part of me looked at the work as sort of this validation or and I'm going to be honest, it was a way to release a lot of my trauma. And so I was on those people on LinkedIn trauma dumping all the time, and I wasn't finding solutions. I was talking into a void, sharing all my problems and frustrations. And I do think as part of my healing journey, I needed that, but now I'm seeing how unhelpful and unproductive it is, and how much it's a mirror to show people how much they need to heal before they help other people heal and other people push along the work. And so you know where we are right now with dei I'm not surprised and I'm disappointed, right, but I'm not surprised there's elements of collective healing that need to be done before we can find any answers within this work 100% and so I'm at a point where I'm gonna say a DI does need a rebranding, because right now it's a trigger word, it's divisive, it's elitist, it's overcorrecting. You're

Shawna  07:56

like, saying all the things right now. I'm like, Yes, keep going. Keep going. Yeah, I'm

08:00

gonna say it. I'm gonna say, you know, I understand when we say humanized workplaces, it's washing out, and there's not acknowledgement of harm. But is there another way we can do this work? And like Katrina said, not having to be the pressure, being the face of it, and solving all the issues, but it being collective and more cohesive? Oh,

Shawna  08:20

I'm just breathing for a second, sir. I did not know we were going to get here like in the first 10 minutes.

08:28

But here we are.

Shawna  08:30

Here we are. First of all, the rebranding thing with Dei. Was there ever a brand? Right? Very true, honestly. You know, I told somebody this story the other day. I was going through some file folders, and I found a folder from when I was in high school, which was not recently. It was in the last century. I was doing my first multi it was called a multicultural diversity workshop when I was 17. My high school counselor asked me to lead it. And I was like, Heck, yeah, I got two days off of school to lead my peers through a two day workshop, and I've forgotten all about it. So I've been in this space, not to mention my travels, and the way that it's sort of manifest in that way too. But I never called it Dei. So there's a couple of problems. One, people think in their head that they know what dei is, and they attach whatever that definition is. Sometimes it is limited to race based things. Sometimes it is equivalent to CRT, and they don't know what those letters mean either, and it's like a whole thing. And you're right, it becomes this sort of divisive thing, but it's because it's never truly been explained. I would say there's also never been any standards. There are um team programs out there. I went to a very good one, but they sprung up like everybody. Can everybody get certified? Right? Number one, diversity does not equal blackness. Diversity does not equal race of any kind. Diversity has all. All these dimensions, which all you all know, because you all know the charts. There's like four or five of them that we all use, whether it's an iceberg, interlocking circles or not, we know what they are. So let's acknowledge that. And then on top of it comes all of the ways that we deliver so not just who's delivering what the standards are, but how it's being delivered. So then you have the blame and shame. You've got the D'Angelo crowd telling themselves and everybody else that they're racist because they were born a certain way. I'm saying this to say I've never believed that diversity equals just this one thing and two, I've been telling folks this pendulum is about to come crashing back. So you're right. Like, I wasn't surprised either, but now it's become this, this area of contention, and that doesn't help us get any work done either. So it's no wonder people feel divided. I think, yeah,

10:55

it's gotten so convoluted and to the point of like, dei doesn't have a look. People tend to think that a specific look is now advocating for everybody. You know, I do a lot of work in disability inclusion and neurodiversity inclusion, and, you know, Lauren and I discuss very much all the time how the overlap is where the rub happens, and not everybody who has been championed with being in these positions, understands that intersection, yeah, but yet they're supposed to do this big job that they're perhaps not, not necessarily not skilled for. But to Lauren's point, too, like I went through a lot of healing, through my own journey. I ended up losing my father in 2020, which is why I had this big, huge rush of understanding my identity, a lot more seeing what he had gone through. But that was my journey, you know, and here I was, I was being vulnerable and sharing about it, but not everybody else was. And then I felt like, well, why am I saying all this stuff out loud? If it's not going anywhere, it's because it was never really meant to go anywhere. It was like a trend that people were captive to. I feel until people have now slight memory issues with not knowing what happened a few years ago.

Shawna  12:04

Do you think it's memory issues, or do you think they finally feel absolved? Um,

12:08

I think it's a mix of the two. I mean, we're seeing this influx again, with a lot of the obvious issues societally still existing. I think a lot of it is just deeply embedded bias and privilege and lack of wanting to let that go. So why would you want to fix something that could actually absolve this issue when that actually means you have to,

Shawna  12:30

ah, I see where you're you're going, Yeah,

12:33

you know, yeah, yeah,

12:35

yeah. And I think it's also like, you know, we talk about trauma. And I was reading an article where it was saying, like, white people, especially white men's trauma responses, to look away from the pain and depression, right? And so it's been done for centuries. Our forefathers, looking away from the pain, depression, avoiding it. So it's the easiest thing to do. And I think it's easier to say, Oh, we're not going to focus on equity or Dei. Dei is divisive, right? Than to say like these are real issues we need to look at. We have to feel other people's pain, right? It's easier to just look away. And so I think we're getting back to a point when it's become easier to look away, and we have candidates, right? We're jumping in again. Yeah, no, no.

Shawna  13:21

Thank you for that. It's true. We have vice president Kamala Harris, President Biden endorsed her, and it's kind of taken off, both for the Democratic Party, but also the opposing party, having a whole lot of issue with it, all the way from calling her dei hire to actually questioning her racial identity and saying that she happened to switch, even though back in 2019 when she was running for president, then they asked her all these questions, and she was quite clear about who she is. Have either of you heard or read any of the transcript from the Breakfast Club interview she did in 2019 It was so good, it's like 45 minutes. I'm going to link it in the show notes so people can watch it, if you want to. I grabbed this one little snippet because the hosts repeatedly asked her, actually, one host mostly, but they keep coming back to, but are you black for real? Because people are saying that you're like pandering to black folks.

14:20

I make the best greens you've ever had, and I have friends who have asked me to make my greens for their Christmas parties. I told you to do that. I'm gonna

14:28

tell you why? Cuz they gonna turn that. They gonna turn that into a sound bite, and they gonna say, that's one of them times you paying into black people, but she's black,

14:35

but I'm black, yeah, and I'm proud of being black, and I was born black, I will die black, and I'm proud of being black, and I'm not gonna make any excuses for anybody, because they don't understand.

Shawna  14:45

This woman has made it quite clear how she identifies, and I gotta say, that's something that I have faced. And I'm not multiracial. I am definitely racially ambiguous, but my mixed heritage go. Some generations back. It just turns out this is how I came to the world. I just wonder what you think about this. I

15:06

mean, I've dealt with this my whole life, too. I mean, I identify as mixed race because my mother is Chinese, my father is black, therefore identify as mixed race. But I have a very unique experience. I realize I'm very ambiguous all across the board, but I don't need to prove my validness and my authenticity to anybody. And I think that's what a lot of us had experienced. When you think about, like, going back to what I said about being the talking head, everybody wants to have an inside scoop on my life, who I am, what my ethnicity is, what my sexual orientation is, all the things like, Why do I have to constantly have to come out to people every single day, not even just when it comes to being queer. But why do I have to constantly express to you what and who I am? I don't ask that of white people there. I mean people.

Shawna  15:47

People wouldn't even think to ask that, because it's like the default so.

15:51

So why is there this constant need? I used to tell people, when I would teach a lot of workshops about bias, that a lot of the bias that we have is rooted in being nosy.

Shawna  16:02

I might pick that up. Y'all nosy,

16:04

like I had the best friends growing up who were so great about me and learning about my family and my mom, and we joke about because I have a very interesting upbringing, but they never asked what I was or what at this day I was. They just hung out with Katrina, and those were my my favorite people, because it didn't matter, because that stuff would eventually come out in conversation, but to pick at it in an Uber ride from the airport, which I get all the time, give me a break like so why do we have to constantly prove who we are? And even if Kamala wants to take a step back and not even share those things about herself, because she doesn't have to, she can advocate and speak to whomever she wants to, because that speaks for itself.

16:46

Yeah, I agree, and I think it's also she's half Asian. So if she were to say that she was half Asian, Black people would have a problem with that and say, No, you're black, right? And so,

Shawna  16:58

Oh, honey, they already are they watching the tick tocks.

17:03

They are all of,

17:04

yeah, it's a thing. And so it's almost like a multiple lens. It's like, okay, I want you to be down and be black, but you're not down enough and black, right? It's just like, I want you to feel like you're marginalized like me, but Oh, you're too good to film. It's just this weird dynamic that is uncomfortable, to be honest with you. And so my mom is both my parents have passed. My mom was Cape Verdean, and so they were the Creole of West Africa. Right there. They were enslaved by the Portuguese. And so a lot of them look white. Some of them look mixed. I came out looking more like my mom, but I never realized my racial ambiguity, or whatever you want to call it, until I was in college, because we were the first black family in my neighborhood, and so I was undoubtedly black, right? Like, when people committed, like, that's a black person. But then when I went in the black bucket, yeah? And then when I got older and started surrounding myself with more diverse people, and I went to school in New York, people thought I was Dominican, maybe Puerto Rican, maybe biracial. And I was always just like, what, I'm clearly black, right? But it would make me uncomfortable when people would say things like, I remember a darker skin black girl was like, Oh, you're part of the light skinned crew, like the guys only, like the light skinned girls. And it just made me feel this weird sensation of feeling bad for people viewing me that way, but also like, No, you don't understand. Like, I've always been the only black person in the room. Person in the room. I don't look at myself as better than anyone. So it's, it's interesting also in the DEI space, because there's a lot of talk about black women, right? And there's times of it in spaces where I definitely feel the racialized imposter syndrome, where I'm like, Okay, should I be speaking up right now? Because they're just gonna look at me this, you know, this light skinned black woman, she doesn't have the same experience as a dark skinned black woman, and the color is woman, and the colorism conversation is very triggering on all sides. I understand. So it's very complex to talk about a construct, right? But, yeah, I have a lot of mixed feelings about it.

18:54

Yeah,

Shawna  18:55

it is very complex. And I understand that I hold privilege too. It's not white privilege, but it's light privilege. I get it. And one thing that I think has served me in my work is working with people who are racialized as white because they're feeling guilty, they're feeling like ashamed, and I'm like, you don't have to be ashamed of who you are. This is just who you are. Now. Don't go out acting like a fool and saying Shawna said it's okay to cut up. No, that's not what I said, but we cannot help who we are. And I think seeing myself through that space and knowing I have privilege also, even though I'm kind of in that Limbo space, I get it. That's why I said earlier, Katrina, like, do you think it's about being absolved, because it's like there was this sort of guilt happening around the country for being white. And I'm like, wait, hold up. I know Robin said, but you don't have to just say you're a racist just because you look like that, right, right? That's my opinion. And so maybe that in the middle. Racial ambiguity, lightness helped me, because I'm like, No, I totally get it. I It's not like I always feel okay either to speak up, right? But it's

20:10

also like, what we do with our privilege is when I tell people, I recognize my privilege as a very ambiguously presenting person. However, I leverage and use it every single day, you know, like I said, living here in Philly, I feel like it's much more commonplace to be very community oriented and like, equity oriented and like, feel like I'm not by myself in the work doing a lot of the community work that I'm doing now. But when I lived in Florida, it felt very much like, you know, okay, well, we see that you're mixed, but still, we're gonna hire you for this position. We want you to come and do this work, even as a consultant, I would come in and do a lot of the work. In and do a lot of the work, and I would see a lot of the privileged folks that were, I use air quotes awake in 2020 still not doing the work, like, still putting all that onus on me. Like, fix it, fix it. I know that you're telling me I need to do this work, but I mean, can you, can you talk to this person instead? Can you do this instead? And I'm like, You still don't get it. It's the whole, like, you know, white supremacist culture. I did a lot of sessions about that, and people still they didn't get it, didn't get it, don't get it.

Shawna  21:20

A fun fact, remember how I said, I say the unpopular things sometimes. How about I don't I don't jive with Miss Tama Okun's white supremacy culture, because did you know that she said it when she wrote that thing, when she was mad after a meeting one

21:46

day? Did you know that interesting? I did not know that I have

Shawna  21:50

an interview with her, not me, but she I have a recording that she did. That was an interview that she was like, Y'all, basically, I was going to these trainings. She was going to, like workshops. One of them didn't go well. She was mad, so she came home and basically wrote an essay. And then this was like in the 90s, when, you know, before people were uploading stuff, we saw a dial up. Then fast forward to the early 2000s I think that was the first time there was a case of police brutality that really caught on. And by then, there was more use of the Internet. Somebody uploaded it, and then in 2020, it blew up. She has on the same website, been like, this is what this was. There is no empirical evidence, right? No proof. I was just mad.

22:37

Oh, yeah, totally. And the way I would always frame it too honestly. I would call it traits of toxic work culture. And I wasn't even using I was using Katrina's experience over the course of 25 years. And I was like, this is not evidence based. This is completely experience based. But it was just things that I had noticed in the very, extremely PWI centered places that I worked. But it's just funny how some of the some of the similarities were there, but to your point, there was much of it where I didn't give any credit to the whole framework. It's completely why, like, for me right now, I'm doing a lot of work, thankfully, finding different work, because, I mean, again, single mom, I'm just working with willing, paying clients and willing equity centered people who are like, alright, continue. We know what you're about. We're going to have you come in and like, we're gonna pay you your rate. We're gonna pay you fairly. There's no trying to nickel and dime me, which is what had been happening progressively Since 2020. Is this, like, Hey, can we, can you do this? You know thing? So, yeah, well, extra, yeah, that's why there's no more that senior level, quote, unquote dei position, the ones that people just keep forwarding me. I'm like, No, thank you. I'm good, I'm good, I'm good, probably never again. Oh,

Shawna  23:48

that was a little parenthetical at it, Lauren, what about you? I was thinking about what I got to know about you a little bit. You know, race is one thing, but culture is another. And you talked about being Cape Verdean and and sort of this difference. I loved it. I don't know your exact words, but you were like, but I'm black, right? I'm like, something like that. I'm just curious what, from a culture standpoint, all of this has meant for you. So

24:16

my dad was Nigerian, Igbo, my mom was Cape Verdean, and both of them grew up in very homogeneous environments. So my mom came from like a Cape Verdean borough in Massachusetts. My dad literally grew up in Africa. And when they created our household, both, they abandoned both of their cultures, and they were both very much fixated on assimilating. And my mom growing up, her mom was always like, you y'all are not black, to tell everyone that you're Portuguese. So she was in this new identity as a black woman, because everyone in town was viewing her as a black woman. And my dad came here almost like, I want to blend in. I don't want people to know I'm from Africa. I want to blend in and be successful. And so I feel like I growing up, had that sort of okay, I don't identify as a black American because. As my parents are from different countries, or second generation, first generation, but I don't identify as Cape Verdean or Nigerian either. So I always just felt very confused about who I was. And I think that's where a lot of my imposter syndrome comes from as well. Because, you know, I grew up listening to rap and black culture, right? But always as like I, people probably would have said I acted like a white girl, right? Because I was at an all white school, and so when I would come around black people, I felt very insecure about my blackness. And so I think that's a lot of what people don't talk about in this identity work like black woman issues, right? Like I've had every issue black woman has had, and I've had issues with self discovery as a black woman. And so it's very layered and confusing. And I just think that when we talk about identity and race and culture, we don't factor in, like behavioral science and the nuances of the human experience. It just feels very binary, and I think that's what we're missing. And I know we have the iceberg of what's underneath the right, but it's like incorporating the underneath in every conversation is so very important. Who's to

Shawna  26:06

say what blackness is anyway, right? And it is okay for there to be different ways that we portray our identities. And well, this may be just because of where I am at right now. But why does it have to be blackness? Anyhow, just who we are, I think we have been, so I don't want to say conditioned, but maybe that's the

26:30

right word. We've been programmed this way. I feel sometimes programmed. Yeah, so

Shawna  26:35

that's better word than conditioned, but to like believe that we have to have some label, and that label means this. And then my question is, well, there is no one person that would embody all of what everybody thinks is, is that so? Oh, can I would you share a little more? I'm just so curious, as you talked about, it's not like, I want to be like, tell me about your insecurity, but I'm just, but I'm so interested, as you talked about, like, trying to navigate these spaces your parents having abandoned their cultures that they were bringing with them in order to assimilate. And also, you're like, what? Okay, so I'm, what did? She said? She said, Say that you're Portuguese. Frank, that you're

27:17

Portuguese. Yeah. And so I've Okay, so I know that I was conditioned to be hyper vigilant because I was around all white people and the way that they perceived me, right? I was the first black people that a lot of people my neighborhood had met. But then when it came to my family, I'd go to Cape Verdean family reunions, and I didn't know anything about the culture, and felt insecure that my cousins knew how to make different dishes, and I was like, my mom doesn't make this here. We would go to Nigeria. We literally went to Nigeria. People were calling me the name for white women, because I guess no one's that light like it was weird. And I, again, didn't know how to make the food. I didn't know to talk the language. And so I've always just felt kind of lost in like a deer in headlights. And so I wouldn't even know if the word is insecure, but just kind of lost of how culturally I identify, and I've always just felt like an outsider and like I didn't belong into this whole belonging conversation has been a long conversation for me since a child, but not only within the white race, but within my two different cultures that happened to be black, Right? So it's just that feeling of like, feeling odd, feeling weird. I feel like I felt all of that.

28:27

Yeah,

Shawna  28:28

no, that's why one of the taglines is, what's it like when you fit everywhere somehow, but belong nowhere all at the same time? Because there is this way. I don't know if it's true for either of you, but pretty much get along with everybody like I can fit in just about anywhere. But there's a difference between and this is the whole inclusion versus belonging conversation too, right? There's a difference between fitting in and feeling like you belong there. And what I don't like about that hyper vigilance that you kind of mentioned, because I had that too, especially when I lived overseas, is sometimes I wondered if I sabotaged my own relationships because I was so focused on it, when nobody else, like Katrina, you were like, I got friends. They didn't care. They didn't ask me no questions. They wouldn't find out because they were my friends. I didn't have, well, maybe I did, but I somehow overlooked them for the ones that are so worried about who was focused on it. And you know, I had a good friend one time that was like, Shawna, nobody is even thinking about that. But I was in a super white, white country, very little racial diversity, and I would get stared at, and, you know, that kind of thing. And so my friend was like, nobody cares. And I'm like, Well, they do care. And she's like, they do not care. And it ended up making it miserable for me, where, if I had just had the Katrina attitude be like, I'm not even thinking about y'all, I probably would have had a great time, but I was so focused on it. I was I agree. I don't

29:54

know if it was where I grew up, but I ended up being around a lot of mixed people do. Of my best friends. One is mixed two different countries in Asia. And then another friend of mine actually is from Brazil and is Puerto Rican, or Puerto Rican Portuguese. And so, like, we talk about this all the time, because we, like, look like sisters, but we saw each other, like, like, slow motion 1980s like running towards each other kind of thing, like, you look like me, you look like me. So I ended up finding other people, I guess, that were also ambiguous or mixed, and it made me feel better not to say, like, when I came into white spaces and or black spaces that I didn't just I always stand out. I never have been to a city where I can just blend in ever except for Philly, but I didn't always like it because, I mean, I'm sure you both can relate. I've been in the room where certain jokes were made, and you're like, hold on a second. Like, that's not okay. Like, don't forget that. Like, that's my category. But I guess I've gotten to a point now I have a daughter who is ambiguously racial as well, or could pass for a lot of different things, and we talk heavily about her ancestry, her father, her grandfather, who passed his heritage, because my father did come from enslaved roots with sharecropping, all the things, and so I just make sure that that culture is not lost in her so no matter what she looks like, she's able to understand who she is at the core of who she is. But that's another huge reason why I moved. I knew what it felt like to be in an environment and to either assimilate or not, and I didn't want her to conform or lose who she was as a very multifaceted individual. So just kind of depends on building that foundation. My daughter sees a therapist. She's seven. I mean, I'm starting early. I'm trying to, like, get her, like, all the like, confidence, building foundations that I didn't have and I had to learn the hard way. Yeah, even though it's not perfect, it's been reparenting Her has been different for me, too. In that respect, I love that

31:45

the work I do now is all about that nervous system regulation, because that hyper vigilance was protecting me, and it was a normal response for what I was experiencing, right? Like people are staring at you, people are making fun of you. Of course, now you're going to be hyper aware of your surroundings and making sure that you don't get hurt again, and and so that healing part, and that's why Katrina, I'm so happy that you're not only making sure that your daughter's surrounded by diversity, but also getting that the therapy. It's because it can really sabotage when you're viewing your world through a trauma lens, right? You're making up stories in your head. You're making deal with the universe that you're not going to let things happen to you again, and so it is hard to differentiate the stories that you're making up in your head and reality. And yes, I can be experiencing covert, overt racism, or someone could just be treating me how they're treating everyone else, and it's like it's up to me to do that healing so I can interpret it in a productive way. And that's what was missing for a large part of my life. Yeah, so

Shawna  32:41

true. Do you know it was a white woman from the Czech Republic that was my therapist that got me straight man, and I was so like, How in the world is this woman even going to help me? She was amazing. And you know what it came down to? It didn't even come down to like a racing it came down to simply loving myself. I didn't even know how to love myself. What a ridiculous notion. Love Myself. Of course. Then you you ask, Well, gosh, how do you treat people that you love? You know, how are you looking out for yourself? What kindness are you thinking when it was constantly, oh, my hair is this, or this is that, or just everything, and not just racially, like all kinds of body issues, and all the things. But really what I think one of the first steps is, well, first of all, knowing who you are and then loving yourself. So yeah, it's some work.

33:32

It's constant. It's constant every day. It's I always tell people, you know, I'm 43 and I say that I am the most authentic I've ever been in my whole life, but it's taken a lot of missteps. And honestly, a lot of is is me trying to lead by example for a little girl who's looking up to me to be my most authentic self, so she speaks up. She has a voice. She doesn't conform, you know? So I think a lot of it is just realizing the power of our journey onto other people that are looking at us as leaders. And again, going back to, like, the layoff like, that's why I was, like, was, like, you know what? It's not even worth it. Like, let me just do work that makes me feel like I have a purpose. Be present in my life and stop feeling the burden of the world being fixed by just me. It's not gonna happen, right? Oh,

Shawna  34:15

that was definitely something I had to let go. Like, why am I out here trying to act like I got a cape to save the world. I am just me, but we can each do a little something. There's a lot of pressure when you're a diversity, equity, inclusion person too, because you're like, I can't say the wrong thing either. I don't know everything. We all have limitations, and to give ourselves grace for that. And there's also magic in 40 at least for women. I think, look, that's when a lot of the work started happening.

34:53

I'm curious how you both feel about the potential of Kamala becoming present, like there's some people. People that feel fear that if she becomes present, black women, or women of color are gonna become a target because of the outrage, but also, if she on the way to her becoming president, right, there might be some outrage, and people actually feel in danger. See, I don't

35:14

look at it that way. Honestly think of it. The other one, I don't even say their name, the other one is effing up his own campaign. I think it might be like Obama two daughter, where it's like, hopefully, we have hope again. But I think honestly, the other one is just making it look really stupid and like saying the worst things, like he said worse than talking about, she's not black, he's called her like a freaking foul name, and just making himself look really stupid. Yeah, because I was gonna say my actually grew up, my dad was in the military and growing up, he was Republican, and I was like, Dad, like, what? And so now I've really seen a lot of people understand that that binary way of being politically can be so dangerous, and we have to just really work on centering, like looking out for each other. And hopefully that's where people go. I'm trying to stay hopeful, or in between states? Yeah,

36:01

no, that's the only thing you can do, really, right? Yeah, I don't know,

Shawna  36:06

yeah. I say have hope. I also think that there's more than politics here. Because look, would you say that other one? I'm not saying his name's He, who? He who shall not be named like Baltimore, right? Look, that whole brand of whatever that is isn't even the Republican Party. This is not the same as, oh darn Bush got in No Well, that means a few things are going to change, like here and there. Look, there's 920 pages worth of document. But right, what I'm trying to say is this is not the same as Republican Democrat or the occasional independent who begins to gain some traction. This is not that. So your question, Lauren, was about Kamala though? Okay, I have a few responses. One, I am so freaking excited because obviously I live in this space where I explore racial ambiguity, and I'm like, There's representation again. So I'm excited because there's representation at such a high level there regarding the target thing, I don't mean to be like, cynical, but when haven't black women been a target? That's what I'm saying. I just feel like it's it's not new. And when have we not been had anything put on our shoulders? We talked about that too Exactly. It would just be fitting. The thing that is making me feel a little tripped out right now is what's what I've been seeing on like Instagram and tick tock with the younger and I say that, but because that's what the feeds have been giving me. I'm not trying to say that there aren't other generations doing this, but what my feeds have been giving me are these younger black people who are totally against her, Oh, yeah, like, totally because we are who we are as an in America, we just cannot help ourselves. We're so obsessed that we have to play into identity politics. We just can't help it. But let's pretend for a second we didn't have you seen this woman's resume, period. I don't understand it. So target, sure, she'll be a target, but so have we all, and I don't anticipate it going away anytime soon. It's just kind of the norm.

38:19

Let's also add to what you said, too, the young folks and all the people I talk to, because I am on a board, and I work with young people all the time, and I'm always like, look, I love you all. You can complain all you want to, but be part of the solution. Get out there and help educate people. Learn about what your vote does if you don't use it right or hold your public servants accountable. Don't just think that a talking head is going to fix everything you yourself need to be having some sense of civil duty to go out in your community and do the work you know. You have to figure out how you can be a part of the puzzle, not just nominating like somebody who volunteers as tribute to fix everything like you. You yourself have to be an active participant in your society too, especially

Shawna  39:00

if you're going to be the one run your mouth, you know, because I do believe there's different levels of allyship. And I recently wrote about this, not everybody has to be an activist, but if you go to out there talking like one, then you know, let's do the work. If you're not ready to that's fine, but do the learning at least? You know anyway, that's how I feel about it. Maybe there's strong opinion here all, but

39:29

I'm like, I have too many opinions. You

Shawna  39:44

This has been so good. I'm so glad that both of you came on to talk with me and to share your insights. You want to share a little bit about where people can reach out to you. Sure, the

39:54

easiest place for people to find me is on LinkedIn. Honestly, if you connect with me on LinkedIn. Typically where I'm at to speak with folks in network, which I'm sure you can include the link in the show notes, but they can start a conversation there and go from there.

Shawna  40:08

Awesome. Thank you. What about you, Lauren? So

40:10

the easiest way to get in touch with me would probably be LinkedIn. So Lauren DK and my website is harmona.org, I'm going through a rebrand right now, but you can get the gist of who I am and some of the services they offer on there as well. Okay.

Shawna  40:27

Well, thank you both so much for joining and for having this conversation. I always learn so much and get some good stuff out of it. So you've enriched me too. I really appreciate it. Great. Thanks

40:37

for having us absolutely, thank you absolutely,

Shawna  40:51

Wow. What an insightful and rich conversation today. I'm so glad that you joined us for this. I also really want to thank Lauren DK and Katrina V Wilson for sharing their journeys and their wisdom with us. We covered so much from the importance of healing and resilience to the evolving nature of dei work. I hope that you got as much out of this discussion as I did as always. You can find links to connect with them in the show notes and be sure to join us for the next episode. Until next time, stay curious, stay connected and keep embracing your true colors. Love y'all talk to you soon

Jason  41:38

you've been listening to our true colors.