Between the Lines: Black Identity, Mixed Race Realities, and a Nation Divided

In this deeply reflective episode of Our True Colors, Shawna and guest Shari Baker dive into the emotional aftermath of the recent presidential election. Together, they unpack the complexities of identity, solidarity, and the nuances of navigating blackness in America. From the broader societal implications of the election to the personal journeys of mixed-race identity, Shawna and Shari offer a thought-provoking and heartfelt conversation about resilience, collective grief, and the power of community. Tune in to explore how we can heal, learn, and move forward—together.

Guest Shari Baker, DEIJ strategist and co-founder of The Wells Collective, shares her insights on black identity, coalition-building, and fostering equity in challenging times.

Stuff to check out from mentions in the episode:

• Kamala Harris’ racial and cultural background at the convention
• Why the term “BIPOC” is so complicated, explained by linguists
• Is It Time To Say R.I.P. To 'POC'?
• BAME We're Not the Same
• For Black women, Harris’s loss creates new wound
• The Blue Bracelet Movement, Explained
• A Look at Racial Incongruence
• Racist text messages sent to Black recipients, including children
• Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome

Want to be a guest or know someone who should join us? Click this link to complete the guest interest form.

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If this is your first time with OTC, check out EPISODE 1: START HERE for more background on the show.

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Transcript

Shawna  00:00

Hi everybody. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm always glad that you're here. It's so validating to know that you're out there listening and being part of these conversations. They're so important, you know, as we think about who we are as individuals and the identities that we have, and how those identities play a part in the way we walk through life every day. It's no small matter. This episode was recorded roughly a week after the outcome of the presidential election. There were still some other outcomes we were waiting to hear, but the presidential election was huge, right? It always is. And I'm going to tell you, it did not go as I had hoped it would go as you'll hear me say in the show. You know, we always knew it was going to be pretty razor thin margins, but wow, it just it really took more of a toll on me than I thought it would. I mean, I knew it would, but I don't think that I've experienced this feeling before, because it's not like, Oh no, here's the unknown. It's the opposite. It is the known we know, and yet this is still the choice that was made around the time this recording, I put out a post on LinkedIn, for those of you who follow me on LinkedIn or follow true culture consulting on LinkedIn, put out a post about the five stages of grief, and I invited readers to accept that we need to grieve those of us For Whom the outcome wasn't what we'd hoped. And we do grieve in different ways. We process in different ways. And I guess I even though I wrote that and I knew that and I know that, wow, it's still been very, very tough because of the realities that I know we're going to face. That doesn't mean we have to give up. We can't be strong, and you can't find strength in one another, but there's a great deal of disappointment in not just your like, average disappointment, if there is such a thing, there's disappointment in, I guess, just the way things have played out that we already know what's been promised to come, and for many of us, those promises are not good things. I want to thank my guest Sherry for joining me. This conversation wasn't easy, and honestly, it wasn't easy to produce, it wasn't easy to prepare for you to listen to because I had to keep listening to it, and I had to keep processing, and I continue to process even today. So just a special thank you for grace that you show for being here to share in this conversation with me and for the future conversations to come, I truly value you as a listener and for being part of this conversation, and with that, here we go.

INTRO  03:15

Welcome to our true colors, hosted by Shawn again, join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial riddle, an ethnic enigma and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.

Shawna  03:32

Hi everyone. Thank you so much for joining us for another episode, and what an interesting one it's going to be. I'm sure you can guess that with all of the happenings that are happening, and today, I am very excited to welcome Cheri, a seasoned dei J leader that is diversity, equity, inclusion and justice. She has a wealth of experience in both education and the private sector. Shari has served as Director of Diversity and Inclusion in schools and most recently as vice president of dei J at a PR firm where she coaches executives on equity matters. She's also a co founder of the wells collective, helping organizations advance anti racism and social Liberation with degrees from Duke the University of Maryland and the University of Florida. Shari is a certified HR professional and a proud Trinidadian American and a fierce black mom who loves her culture, her kiddos and her Disney Plus subscription, welcome. I'm so glad to have you.

Shari  04:30

Thank you. I'm so glad to be here today. So many things to talk about. Can't wait.

Shawna  04:36

Oh, indeed, there are so many things to talk about before we get into all the nitty gritty what? What is something that you enjoy as a hobby, just so listeners can get to know who you are as a person?

Shari  04:52

I think there is another universe with a version of me that's like an interior designer, like if I had a different. Completely different career. It would probably be that, like, I love a good home goods run, you know, picking up all the seasonal things. I think I could have done that in life, truly. So I'd like to thank you know, in the multiverse, somewhere, there's a version of me making people's homes beautiful.

Shawna  05:16

I can imagine that Shari, when we first started talking, I asked you, what is a topic that's important to you for this show, we explore identity a lot, obviously, especially when it comes to being a person who doesn't fit neatly in some social box. Whether that means you are mixed race, multi racial, biracial, however you identify, or you're a person like me who's racially ambiguous, and people are like, we just don't get it. I'm like, I get it because you don't get it. It's cool. Or even folks who it's not really like a race thing. It could be culture or ethnicity, or even like trans racial adoptees that just don't fit in some social box. I'm saying all this because we just went through. It's not even fair to say went through. I feel like it's ongoing. We as a country are experiencing, at least at the time of this recording, the end of an election season that for some was very triumphant, and for others, and I'm in that others category today, very heartbreaking, confusing, disappointing. People are still doing analysis to figure out what happened. We've seen elections where you're like, okay, so candidate didn't win. Bummer. But this is a situation. I'm like, this is not the same as, Oh no, they didn't choose gore. They chose Bush, right? This is not that, yeah, it's that. It isn't. There's a lot, I think, wrapped in identity here. I'm not saying that's the only thing. I've had lots of discussions over the last few days, and I know that there are a lot of contributing factors. I've even said, like, I feel like chaos theory is, is part of this as well. You know where little things start to pile up to equal these big things? Yeah, we knew it was close between Harris and Trump. We knew that, but I could not have predicted the spread. I think I just am still in a state of shock. And you know, recently I posted on LinkedIn Kubler Ross's five stages of grief, five and a half because I started with shock, but then, because I'm like, It's shock first to me, how are you? What has this election season and outcome meant for you?

Shari  07:32

Yeah, well, I mean, I am one of the 92% of black women that voted for the hair as well as ticket, and I agree with you. I don't think this is the same as saying, like, oh, you know, sometimes the Democrats win, sometimes the Republicans win, and you kind of, like, lick your wounds, and you keep going. This is as wild as it's going to sound when I say this out loud, right? This is really about one man, right? It is about Donald Trump and sort of this, this movement and this message that he won with, I think, is the part that is so hurtful. It's not a sort of traditional Republican Party platform. It very much was a campaign very embedded, like you just said, in identity, right, in sort of playing at very embedded possibly of subconscious fears and anxieties of people to sort of elicit maybe some of the worst responses, I think, that you could maybe have from from human beings. So I wasn't surprised that she lost because, I mean, I think, like you said, we all kind of knew like that was always going to be a possibility, given Kamala Harris's identity, but also given the fact that she waged the campaign in 100 days, right? There was a lot, but I think to see the margins by which she lost was really shocking, that was really disappointing, and almost like disillusioning to a certain extent. And and I agree, no, it is not only identity which is why she lost. But I think we also have, maybe not you and I, but we as maybe a broader society also kind of have to be honest about the larger role that that played. I mean, we can talk about whether, you know, she should have talked more about economic policy and things like that, but when you compare apples to apples about who was talking about policy. There's not a comparison, right? It's so I think we have to just be honest about the fact that being a woman, being a woman of color, was a large part, not the whole thing, but was a large part in her loss, and just in terms of how the disparities and how people rationalize things between the two candidates and and have the nerve to call her like unqualified, she was the only candidate who had actual, actual breath of political experience, I mean, so I'll leave it at that. But I have been very, very disappointed and sad, not necessarily surprised.

Shawna  09:56

Yeah, I feel that. Again, just to reiterate and echo what you said, I think it's the margin. And to be honest, it's so weird. There's like, this mix of selective amnesia from a lot of people in the country. But I think me too, a little bit like I anticipated it to take days again, like it did last time, even though we're not going through the pandemic this time, and we know that had a lot to do with that. There was a lot of things that had to do with why it took so long. And I think I wasn't ready for the swiftness of it either, like, Whoa, it's over, even though that was the norm, like we're used to that from years past, I think I just wasn't ready just to kind of dig into the identity piece for a minute, and it's ridiculous to even say that she's not qualified as a sitting Vice President, yeah, not to mention the rest of her resume.

Shari  10:51

Yeah, that was in politics. That's right. In government, that's

Shawna  10:55

right. Like, everything, like, there's so much it's like, that is a ridiculous notion, and just the meanness of it all. There's a lot of discussion about black women and the idea that we just can't get past that, needing to prove yourself so far and above everyone else just to be considered. So it's that working twice as hard to get half as far, you know, everything you've got to do just to be kind of considered, right? So despite her resume, oh, no, I don't know. Meanwhile, you can have a man who had producers to help him look good on his show. He wasn't even good. You know, who's been bankrupt? Gene times, who is a felon has been just

Shari  11:50

the idea full time, but y'all

Shawna  11:53

folks just elected a felon. Yeah,

Shari  11:55

and it actually almost made his case stronger in some demographics, like, oh, he became so relatable because he's been through this system, too. I mean, what I have struggled with, honestly and again, like, on Wednesday, I had to take the day off. I just couldn't work. Yesterday, I was in like, a brain fog, maybe, like, 40% brain capacity, yeah. And I couldn't look at the news for a while, because there's a part of me again that's like, Okay, I need to be I need to try to like, be centered and be gracious and be empathetic and all these things. And they also just need us to be honest, because I need people, especially on the news, to stop saying, well, the Democrats just didn't get their messaging Right. Like, they just didn't break through. People are worried about their bills and they don't care about democracy. Like, I just, I don't want to hear it, because I just want someone to name me a single policy that Trump put forth in this entire election. But like you just said, it is like the over proving Kamala Harris in 100 days put out an entire policy platform, and

Shawna  12:58

I just want to take a minute to appreciate that was a beautifully run campaign, how short it was, how intentional everyone on her team was. Here's me, like, at some point, like, Can somebody give me the business card of whoever is running this? Because, I mean, I'm a need to find them and get them on my marketing team. Amazing. Yeah,

Shari  13:22

just commendable. And it's like, we have to be honest about why he was able to do that. Yeah? And it's all about that identity piece, right? It's about sort of that internalized idea of, well, men can say these things, and they're automatically leaders, but women need to have your full resume, the full plan, and then layer right on top of that, he's a white man, she's a black woman, and like you just said, a white man with a litany of transgressions like big and small and none of those things were perceived to make him less qualified or less fit for Office, versus a woman who had none of those things, right, none of those sort of dings on her, on her scorecard, if you will. And still, people said, Oh, she wasn't qualified. She she's not gonna be help us. I don't know enough about her. I hate her laugh. I mean, just

Shawna  14:15

I know. I know the um, like, it's so ridiculous. I want to talk about her being a black woman for a second, because you might know, and the listener has been following know this. Not only do I have the show and discuss racial ambiguity and what it is to be mixed race, et cetera, but I do research about this, specifically, how it manifests in the workplace. And there is no one way to be mixed. There are so many different ways to identify that way, not to mention in itself, there's no one way depending on your heritage, right, right, right. And she identifies as a black woman, period. And she has said as much. But that in itself has been questioned by other black folks, like I saw it on Tik Tok. I saw it when she was running. Back in the 2020 race, you know, she was on interviews and so on in 2019 again, defending her identity. Yeah, people would say, and when I say people, I mean people in the black community would say she's pandering to blacks, because she's not really black, because she's mixed. And I'm not even biracial. I don't have parents of two different races, but I'm what you'd call multi generationally mixed in that the mixing in my family happened generations ago. So I just happen to look like this, but I still feel like I get questioned about my level of blackness. What blackness means, right? What are your thoughts on that?

Shari  15:41

Yeah. So it's funny, because with not the same exact percentages, I guess, but like, I'm also a Kamala Harris, my I have, you know, Caribbean, black and Indian ancestry, like that is exactly my sort of mix as well. And so it's been really fascinating for me to see how she's been sort of scrutinized in the public sphere, in the black community and outside. And it took me back, particularly with the black community sort of questioning her blackness and the issues really black when, like, the woman went to Howard and is an AKA, and I'm like, those are, like, the two black probably in America, so as a woman, right? I mean enjoying a sorority and going to HBCU, so I just it's very confusing that people are questioning, but it took me back to being at my own in my own underground experience at Duke University, and having black American students, as they identify themselves, tell me, like I'm not black, or, as the phrase was back then, like I'm not regular black, and

Shawna  16:47

I'm like, Well, I that's, I haven't heard that one. I

Shari  16:49

think that was unique to our campus. I think that was very much a thing that came just in on our campus, but it was just a weird way, I thought, to sort of bifurcate the community, particularly because Duke, at that time was it very it was not a very welcoming campus to black students in general. So I thought this was a weird strategy right to then, like, subdivide while we're, like, dealing with larger issues. And for context, Steven Miller, who's the chief strategist for Trump. I went to school with that guy. So when I say we had larger issues on campus, when I say he was writing the same things he's he's saying out loud, he was writing them in our student newspaper, so, and creating, like, just turmoil, right? So it was an interesting, like thing. But I say that to say, like, you know, that's, it's such an old and very, I think, confusing and troublesome thing that the black community sometimes does, I think, particularly in America, which is like, well, you're not black like us, and it's like, but we're all here, right? Like, we're all kind of in the same society now, like we're sort of dealing with the same systemic issues. So to what extent does it actually matter? Like, where I'm like, You know what part of the Diaspora I'm from? Because I'm still black. And I would think it's one thing if Pamela was, you know, a person that issued that identity and was like, No, I'm actually not black. And it's like, but you're clearly black, right? Like, that would be a different thing. But she's always right. Been very like you said forthright about being a black woman, which she identified as a black woman. She's very open and proud of her heritage. It even talks about her mother as an Indian woman, woman, understanding like, Hey, this is America, and my kids are going to grow up like in this way, and making sure that they were very right, confident and proud of being like, you know, black women. And so it's confusing to me, I don't know like as a community, why that's still such an issue. It feels a little bit like crabs in the barrel, right? Like I have to set myself apart from you, because, you know I'm not like you and you're not like us. It, it feels, again, all just very wrapped in identity. It's like understanding, like, what is our collective level of like, internalized racism and internalized sexism, to the point where, where you see a super qualified black woman who is trying to make things better, particularly for the most marginalized of us, which are people of color, right? People living in poverty, people with more other marginalized identities, and to say, like, but you're not black enough, and you're not going to help me, but this other white man who is a multi millionaire who says the most vitriolic things about people in marginalized positions, that's the guy who's going to fix the economy because he cares about me. It's like, you gotta wonder, what is going on on the inside? Yeah,

Shawna  19:38

good points. You know, I've heard a couple of things about when you mentioned the diaspora, and how people sort of separate what blackness is with that in mind, years ago, there was on NPR. Are you familiar with the podcast? Code switch? Okay, so it was years ago. There was an episode where. Yeah, they introduced. Well, for me, it was an introduction. I hadn't heard this term before, but I was like, Okay. JBS, meaning just black. The difference being black Americans that are descendants of the enslaved people versus black immigrant Americans who have come more recently, not necessarily descendants of those who are enslaved, but immigrants also, like from the islands, from other places in the world, and the difference in the way they are received, meaning perception that JBS just black folks often experience more discrimination or are given less credit than black folks who are immigrants coming from other places in the world. And I think in some cases, I've seen some of that, especially if there's an accent. Because, you know, Americans love like if you have a foreign accent, somehow, that bias of, oh, this is better, like, there's a strange superiority thing there, versus a dialect from a different place in the US, that also triggers a bias, but it's an inferior bias. So I have heard that that argument, and most recently, I came across a post of a very popular LinkedIn person who kind of got into labels, the labels of BAME, you know, B, A, M, a, they usually used in your bipoc, POC. And it basically was like, do not put me. It was a black woman. She said, Do not put me. Do not call me POC. I don't want to be called bipoc. I don't want BAME on my name. I am a black woman, period. You can keep your POC, basically. And I really had to think about that, because I'm just going to be straight. I am worried right now that not only are we processing what has happened here? I think there's a lot of fear. What are the implications for marginalized people? Not just racially speaking, there's so many identities that I think are in danger right now. Is this the time to be like, Nah, I'm not going to be with you. Part of you. You just do you now, let me just put a caveat here. The argument based on the thread, the conversation was that people who are, I'm just gonna say, non white people of color label, unless you're black, like, let's say you're non white, but you're not a black person. The argument there was that either one, they don't recognize their privilege. Or two, there's a bit of interest convergence happening, where there's only solidarity if it serves their interest, not the interest of the black community, specifically black women. So for that reason, I don't want to be called a POC. I'm a black person. And I was like, okay, I can respect that explanation. Yeah, two things, though. One, especially if you're a person that's in the diversity, equity, inclusion field, if you're in the industry of dei and we're constantly preaching inclusion, I feel like it's a little dichotomous to then say, I'm not going to be part of this group, and you can't be part of this group. POC and two, I started to think about, what does this mean for people who hold multiple racial identities? Like in my book, I started talking about these five different kind of ways of being mixed, and one of them is impact, actually multiracial person of color, meaning neither of your parents are white, right? So what does that mean if you're a person who, then, according to this post, is both black and a POC? Yeah, I'm putting that out there because it's just something I've been pondering. And I'm wondering what you think about, about that, this idea that there is a risk of infighting and separation, because I don't want to be part of that group, but people who are part of both, then, what? Right?

Shari  24:01

Right? So, I mean, I don't know who it was, but I saw a similar post, and I feel like it's honestly probably just really reactionary right now, because black women are like, again, at least 92% of us are really deeply hurt right now. And I think it is a, it is a, a collective feeling of betrayal. And I think you're kind of seeing that come through in some of these posts. I read one that was had the same sort of sentiment, but it was like, you know, don't ask me to Free Gaza. Don't ask me to stop Asian hate. Don't ask me to care about DACA and dreamers like, leave me alone, right? And like, and I, and I even have, like, a little rectum like, whoo. Like, this person is really strong, yeah, strong. Yeah, right. That's, those are, like, really pointed statements, yeah, but I understood the the feeling of, like, when we needed y'all to show up, you weren't there, and we are the first ones to march for you and lobby for you. And you left us out to dry, like you hung us out to dry. Now, granted, I mean, there's, there's some nuance there, right? But, like, I think was it, like 83 or something, percent of black men also voted for Kamala. So, like, truly strong showing. And still, you gotta wonder, like, what happened to the rest of y'all? We are the first ones to march for you, to say your lives matter to fight, you know, like, and where are you? And so I think I don't know I, I would not have posted that. I don't agree necessarily with the the literal right call to action, that is, but I totally understand that feeling of like, black women are constantly trying to, like, you know, save other people do, you know, make this country better help us stay like, kind of like on the right side of history, you know, for the most part. And I do feel like there's almost like a it feels ancestral, almost like this generational, like fatigue, of when is someone going to save us or stand up for us, or just be in actual solidarity with us? I mean, you got to look at the 50% of white women who did the same thing and who said they weren't going to do it again, and then literally did it again, right? Like and so

Shawna  26:12

solidarity, yeah, I think you're right. Have you heard about the blue bracelet thing?

Shari  26:17

I have not heard about that.

Shawna  26:18

Oh my gosh. So on Tik Tok. I first saw it as white women talking to white women, and they were like, Hey, we need a way to distinguish ourselves from them. I gotta make sure that you don't see me as a white woman. And just think I'm that one, right? So then someone said we're gonna wear blue bracelets or something. And then I checked in on it again. After this thread, I was like, let me just see. So I actually typed in, you know, searched it, and what came up was not white women. It was a whole bunch of black women that were like, hey, white women, we don't need your blue bracelets. We don't need to see that you're wearing a blue bracelet for us to feel safe because we don't feel safe anyway. Somebody said it's giving black box on Instagram, you know? And I'm like, Okay, I feel it. I understand. But then there's like, this conundrum for me, I can understand that they don't want to be seen right, as this other group, and also, because I don't believe that every person has to be an activist. Not everybody has to be Angela Davis, not everybody needs to be out on the street with a picket sign. People, people can show up for each other in different ways. That's my belief. But how can we get through this together, rather than separating from white folks and separating from other people who aren't white but aren't black. Like, I just, I'm worried about it, to be honest. Yeah,

Shari  27:47

I agree with you. So we are both educators and dei practitioners, and so I'm always thinking about, like, right, how do we, like, widen the circle and not close the circle? Yeah. And I think in this case, I just think black women are deeply hurt, and I think they need some time. And I applaud the white women who are, I haven't seen the blue bracelet thing, but, you know, I applaud the effort. I also think, like, sometimes, right? It's the timing, it's key, and it's like, you know, I get that you want to separate yourself and maybe, like, do that, gather up all the white women who you know, you know also on where the blue bracelets round each other up. But like I do, I think black women just need some space right now, because I again, I don't know who made these two like, I didn't know people personally who made like that post on LinkedIn, or the one that you referenced, but I would almost bet right in, in two weeks, or maybe a month like that, will eat that will calm down. But I do think it's like the reactionary, like, I can't believe y'all did this to us, right and I but I don't, I don't know if I necessarily believe, like, that's rooted in a and so, like, I don't want to build coalitions with you people anymore. I mean, I would hope not. But those are, again, two individuals, but at least from my standpoint, like, I still think having right this multiracial and just like right diverse coalition of people from all walks of life, which is, ironically, the actual campaign that Harris built, is the way is the way forward, right? I do believe that, I think that we just have to again, be honest and recognize that right now, like the hurt is hitting different, right for different groups of people, even if it's still all hurt, it's still hitting different right, particularly for black women. And I think it's just like people are gonna have to just, like, just be a little empathetic, be gracious, be patient. It's not that we don't like it all. We just mean. We just need a little, like, a little inner symptom, I think, in is what, you know, people are kind of regressing to a little bit like, I just need to be with these people right now, because nobody else can understand, like, how deeply like, this hurts. And I think that's fair and that's real. Yeah,

Shawna  29:58

I do too, but that's. I think that's why I kind of went to that question of, what does that mean when you hold both identities as a person who is mixed race, you are a black person, but then you also have, you know, family that isn't there's this loophole. You never are fully accepted by any one community, because you never hold one I mean not that anybody holds your identity, but you know what? I mean, you're not like in that box. So it's just something interesting to witness. I wanted to ask you, because earlier, and we've kind of moved to this space, but earlier, we were talking about the concept of blackness and how that can mean different things, depending on where you're from, or whatever context, how would you like to see the concept of black identity evolve? What would that look like for you?

Shari  30:47

So I think, right, yep, sort of evolution revolution. Number one is that, like, if you're black, you're a black I think sometimes the black community almost does, right, what the US government does to Native people, right? Which is like this, like, blood quantum kind of thing. Like, well, how black are you? Right? And we do it to ourselves, right? And we do it to each other. So I feel like that would be the first thing. Like, maybe if somebody said, like, Hey, I'm black, it doesn't matter if their grandma has black, if the only black person in their life, it doesn't matter, you know, if they're half black, if they're if they're light bright, like, whatever it is, right? She said light night. And I talk about, oh, my kids are, like, bright for my kids with, like, sugar cookies, right now and again. It's kind of odd, right? Because historically, right, that was, that was the litmus test in America. Right? Like, literally the one drop rule, right? And somehow, exactly, I was gonna mention that exactly, yet somehow in the black community ourselves, like we are now self policing, like, but you're not all the way black. And here's the thing I would make that argument based on, like, black consciousness, more than I would your actual sort of, like, ethnic makeup and percentage of blackness, I would be more apt to be like, Yeah, you're not that black based on your level of, like, black consciousness and how you support, you know, and uplift the black community, versus like you're 1/8 black. So not so, not really, you don't pass the black test.

Shawna  32:20

Mm, hmm. The black you know, I have never heard anybody compare it to the indigenous community and like how they have, like rule like laws and things that determine benefits and stuff based on that and school, kids would ask me. Kids would just straight up ask me all the time, are you mixed? Aside from the question of, What are you, they would ask me, like, are you mixed? Aren't you mixed? And I would say no, because my mom taught me to say no. She's like, No, you're black. I think going back to hypo descent, that one drop rule I had, I had cousins and aunts, blonde, blue eyed, green eyed, red haired, people who would straight look at you and be like, No, I'm a black woman. I think going back to the black consciousness that you you mentioned, I think that's so key. You ever see school days? I got to go back and watch it again. It's been a minute. I got to break out some spikes watch school days, because this whole colorism thing plays such a big part that when I when the DNA tests came out, I couldn't wait. I've taken Ancestry DNA test and the 23 in me, because I'm like, all my life, I have identified only moderation as a black woman, knowing I look like I look not fully understanding, I mean, kind of getting like, yeah, I can look around see my family members are all different shades. We just are. But how could it be when the kids that are black kids at school look like black kids and the other ones that look like me are biracial, didn't get it. So I took this test. I'm gonna tell you, I was floored to see the percentages. Even though we don't walk around with percentages on us, it was still something important for me to see. But it's not important. It was only important, I think because our society made it so I felt like I had to see just how much I'm doing, air quotes, blackness. I had, thank God for therapy, because I needed to examine why I was fixated on those numbers. Yeah. Why was that so important to me? And I think it's just been drilled into us. And for people who are racially ambiguous, you're trying to find home in a way, like, where is it that I fit? So anyway, I think it's very interesting that you likened that to the Native American experience with with percentages, yeah. So the first

Shari  34:38

time I ever sort of got asked this question about, like, well, what are you and all these things is when I went to college, and I think, you know, for people who go to college, that's usually probably one of the most, like, diverse experiences of their lives, right, whether it's a state school or private school, whatever, because there's just so many people coming from so many different places that you, that you, that you leading for the first time, as opposed to, like, you know, whatever town it is that you. City you grew up in, and those were your folks. Now you're kind of exposed to all sorts of people, which I think is also one of the beautiful things about having a university experience. I'm very visibly Brown. Like, I just, I just never thought, like, somebody would assume, like, I'm something other than black. Like, it didn't even occur to me until I got to college. And, like, you know, people kind of like, give you, like, the squinty eye, because they're trying to, like, suss out, like, what else you got going on? Um, ethnically in that,

Shawna  35:28

yeah, because they look at you, they're probably like, she's not a JB, yeah,

Shari  35:31

it's like, you know, or in our faces. RB, right, in a regular black, I'm not a regular black. It's like, my my cheekbones look a little different, you know, hair is a little too pearly and wavy, like people were really trying to understand, like, Well, where did you come from? Because you're not one of us. And I just was like, Are you are you seeing what I'm seeing? Because all I'm thinking is like, I have never not thought I was black, and I've never not thought I didn't look black. So I just was very confused. But it is that like, that, that almost instant like calculation that people start to do, like, well, we're like, what issue and what is that? And like, I think it's going to be my daughter is in kindergarten now. My son is still in preschool. And what I think I noticed, really for them right now, is that I think people take right, almost like, your racial cue from who you're around. And so I have definitely seen sort of like, when my daughter is around, like other white girls, until the parents see me, like, they'd always make the connection, like I'm her mom, until she runs up to me, because they're almost like, because I think she almost has this sort of like, white wing. I don't say white passing she's half white, but like she she presents as white when she's around other white kids, but when she's around a more racially diverse group of students, people, then I think more readily, like, assume I'm her mom, right? So it's about also, like, kind of the context and what people are picking up when my kids are around different groups of kids. So I think that's really interesting, too. And then, of course, like, there's, like, the summer versus right, the winter. And, like, because my kids tan and they they can get pretty brown, right? Like, I think the white side did not prevail, because my kids do not get sunburned. They don't come out, like, like, a little red lobsters, which my ex husband, like, he would be completely red in this in the sun, like, fully red skin peeling all of like, the tragic, you know, skin things about being white, like my kids, they just get, like, fine bra, you know, butter Brown. Like, just like, oh, they look so beautiful in December. And, like, right now, I'm like, okay, winter is coming. And, yeah, the sugar cookie dough is, it's taken over, like,

37:44

getting tailored. Oh,

Shari  37:50

yeah.

Shawna  37:51

Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you would like to share? Yeah.

Shari  37:56

So I think on both of those points, like for myself as being, you know, multi racial, and for my kids, for even more, right, multi racial, I try, at least as a mom, right? You know, to to make sure my kids really grow up having, like, black consciousness and also, like, not invalidating. You know that they are half white. Also, I'll just be honest, I feel like my job is to make sure they're not ashamed of who they are in any sort of respect and for their full identity. I think their father gets to have his experience of sort of enculturating our kids, you know, with whatever like he wants them to have in terms of their identity. And I think I also think, like, white people don't always have, like, a very clear sense of, like, this is my white identity. So again, those are things that he gets to kind of grapple with, maybe with his kids. For me, like, sort of on my end, I feel like my job is to make sure that they're very proud of who they are, that they always know, right, that they're, you know, make kids. They're not just one or the other. They are both. The fact is, for my kids, at least, right? They do live with me. They are, like, almost exclusively around my family. And so they are growing up in a very black, Caribbean sort of household, and that's like their culture. And like, for me, is something I want them to take pride and it's something that I want to be a source of strength for them, as it's, you know, been for me. And I think, as it pertains to the election, like, what, what worries me is kids feeling like they don't, that they aren't safe, and again, like, I don't know that it's trickled down. So my kids are very young, so they have no concept of what's going on. But I don't know if you've seen that. Like from elementary through college, black kids specifically are being targeted, and they're seeing these crazy, terribly racist text messages about like, you're,

Shawna  39:46

you're now, get ready, you're about to be picked up to go to a plantation show you're,

Shari  39:51

you're a slave. Now that freaks

Shawna  39:53

me out. I'm not even gonna lie. I mean, I know, you know it's a cruelty thing, but as an adult, that freaks me out. And the fact that. It has gone to children, and it's, I just created this

Shari  40:02

level of fear, and it's fear based on identity, right? It is being sent exclusively, at least I know, as I know right now, exclusively to black children, right? And to black students. And so you gotta wonder again, like this, and this is a direct result of Tuesday's outcome. Like, no one can try to say it's something else, right? It's, I mean, Trump is in the body of the text messages that kids are receiving, like, Now Trump is going to be our president. You are assigned to this plantation. And so that makes me very fearful, maybe, if not directly, for my own kids, as right, an educator for life, just for kids and the fear that they are already being made to experience at whatever it ages, because I also understand university students have received them as well, but it is, it's about creating fear, and it's fear targeted to a group based on identity, and that that really makes me scared. And I think like maybe to come full circle. I also think maybe, like, where are all the blue bracelets? Being like, Hey, cut this crap out. I think, you know, again, like, that's the solidarity that also has to come out and say, like, hey, not for our kids, because our kids, assuming, you know, and taking the wide lens that, like, all of these are our kids, we're all responsible for these kids. And so even though, like, that's not my black child, because I don't have black kids, you're still not going to send this stuff to them, like we need everyone to, you know, feel that collective, like we're not going to tolerate this. We're not going to let you do this. We're not going to let you, you know, make these kids afraid because they're black, and this is who won, and I think that should be coming from everybody.

Shawna  41:40

I agree with you so much. It's like, you know, harkening back to Dr Joy DeGruy, post traumatic slave syndrome. This isn't even post, how can a group of people be expected to heal from something that's not over right exactly when you're threatened like this?

Shari  41:58

I just And for me, the fact that like it right across states. They just, I mean, it was an actual campaign, multiple slight people actually sat down and said, This is what we're gonna do. The moment Trump becomes elected, we're gonna send all these texts out. I'm

Shawna  42:15

so glad FBI is already investigating this. But how could it be so targeted,

Shari  42:22

and this is the campaign, like this fear campaign that we're already on 24 hours out, and somebody had to give my child's number to over to this sherry.

Shawna  42:33

I gotta say, I hope you're wrong about that. I just my brain won't let me accept that. I'm like, No, our data is so everywhere that surely there was some cross tabulation happening where they got a list of phone numbers and then there's bio data somewhere or something. Because I can't think that someone that we actually know would do that. We literally we've got data everywhere that had happened is crazy, but please, God, let it not be because somebody actually gave that information. I just don't think I could handle that as a reality, if that were true, and their children anyway. Well, we have a lot to continue to process as a nation, as individual communities, as individuals. But I do think that even though there's all these other factors that could contribute to this outcome, despite knowing that it was going to be close anyway, it just was a huge blow. But if we could just minimize damage, give ourselves time to heal and gather strength, and we got to watch. I told a friend, this is the time to observe, to watch, maybe be quiet a little bit, so we can assess what's going on and know how to brace for what's to come, but also plan for what to do next. So yeah,

Shawna  44:02

you you know, I want to thank you for having this conversation with me. It's not an easy one to have, especially so soon after this outcome, it's been really helpful for me to talk things through, too, and especially thinking through that identity lens. Yeah,

Shari  44:19

thank you so much for having me. You know, I, I agree with you. We will get through, but I think we'll fare better if we get through together. I think having that multi racial, you know, incredibly diverse coalition of people saying okay, like we're gonna lick our wounds, we're gonna grieve together, some of us, we need

Shawna  44:41

to grieve separately. Yes, and

Shari  44:42

then, you know, we got to pick it back up, right? Like, if you want to go quick, you go alone. If you want to go far, you go together. And so that's what we got to do. We got to regroup and go together.

Shawna  44:54

I love that, Sherry. Where can listeners find you if they want to learn more? About you or reach out to you?

Shari  45:01

Yeah, so you can find me on LinkedIn. Shari Baker, I love connecting with other dei professionals like I said, I'm a super fierce black mama. Would love to meet other black mamas. And yes, I have a consulting business called just ideas. Ideas being capitalized for inclusion, diversity, equity and access. And I do lots of consulting, strategic planning, professional development, equity auditing. So really kind of your dei generalist, if you will. So if you're interested in any of that, again, connect with me on LinkedIn. I'd love to chat, connect personally and personally.

Shawna  45:41

Thank you again. This has been fantastic. I'm gonna put all of your info in the show notes so people can, you know, have your link set and reach out to you. But in the meantime, I've just really appreciated this, and I hope we get to talk again before too long. Likewise.

Shari  45:53

So great to be on the podcast, and I just can't wait to see what other things we get to do together. Absolutely. Take care. You too, bye, bye, you.