Sensitive Curiosity: A DEI Leader’s Journey with Marcel De Jonghe

What does it mean to navigate the world as a mixed heritage individual when belonging feels just out of reach? In this episode, Shawna and co-host Kat Aragon welcome Marcel De Jonghe, Head of DEI&B for Europe’s largest local authority, to explore identity, belonging, and the intersections of race and culture. Marcel shares his personal journey as a Zimbabwean-Belgian navigating life in the UK, the challenges of being "not quite Black enough" and "not quite White enough," and how his work in equity and inclusion is shaping a more thoughtful, empathetic world. The conversation covers microaggressions, the power of "sensitive curiosity", and how we can all work toward fostering true belonging—at work, at home, and in our communities. Tune in for an insightful and heartfelt discussion about identity, advocacy, and breaking down barriers.

Stuff to check out from mentions in the episode:

• What’s the difference between “Inuit” and “Eskimo”?
• What's in a Name? The Meaning of "La Raza"
• The changing categories the U.S. census has used to measure race
• 1930 Census Instructions to Enumerators
• "Instructions to Enumerators" [ORIGINAL]
• Who’s White? Who’s Black? Who Knows?
• John Agard reads his poem, Half-Caste and Half-Caste (John Agard)

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Transcript

Intro  00:06

Welcome to our true colors, hosted by Shawna Gann. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial riddle, an ethnic enigma and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.

Shawna  00:20

Well, hey, Kat, how are you? We're back for another episode. What's going on? 

Kat Aragon  00:24

I'm great. Not much. Had a birthday this week. I didn't know if I was gonna make it. I was really sick last weekend. Okay. Well, we want to be making it to our birthdays. Make it through the birthday. We did. We were good. So we Yeah, it was just such a weird, like, 24 hour thing. It was like a 24 hour bug, and it went away, and everything was, you know, fine. And then I had my birthday, and my I was actually working on my birthday. So that was a fun experience, but I will admit that I worked on my birthday because of who was asking me to work with. It's one of my favorite clients, and she totally spoiled me that day. I just had a feeling she she might, you know, break out in song and a birthday cake. And she did, she did not. This is what,

Shawna  01:10

well, happy belated. Do you want me to sing your song? 

Kat Aragon  01:13

Yeah, sure. Go for it! 

Shawna  01:15

Happy birthday to you.

Kat Aragon  01:20

I love it so good. 

Shawna  01:22

Oh my gosh. When I was in high school, we had this wacky choir director who taught me the most depressing Happy Birthday song, and I sing it to my kids every year because it cracks them up. And I can't right, so it's like, I'm gonna do it. I can't imagine. 

Kat Aragon  01:36

I love to hear it. 

Shawna  01:37

Me, me, me, me, me.......  Happy birthday. Ooh, happy birthday. Ooh, birds are falling from the air. There's people dying, but happy birthday.

Kat Aragon  01:55

Oh my gosh, why would they teach you this? Oh, my

Shawna  01:59

I'm so glad he did. So that's how I touched her my kids every single year, but then I ended up with, like, happy birthday, happy birthday, and something jolly and silly.  Anyway, well, I I recently had my birthday too, and I also worked on my birthday, but my work was staining a deck, so that was nice manual labor. Yeah, I you discover muscles you didn't know you had when you have to stain a deck. 

Kat Aragon  02:26

I guess I don't think I would ever line up to volunteer to stain a deck. So I don't know. I'm gonna trust you on that one. Well, somebody who knows and enjoys how to do this, like, 

Shawna  02:37

Listen, by the end of the process, I was talking to my husband, like, whatever we need to save for when it's time for this to be restrained, I'd like to do that to hire somebody, because, wow, no, I it turned out just fine. You know, getting those, like, composite boards or whatever that are supposed to be good for, you know, they're like, plastic. They last forever, right? So you don't stain anything. Yeah, we don't have that kind of money, so staining it was, 

Kat Aragon  03:05

oh goodness. Anyway, I'm glad you guys got through that. 

Shawna  03:08

And you know, since we're in such a good mood and I'm singing as such uplifting songs, just kidding, this isn't a good segue, but I am gonna move us along, because we have a really great guest today, and I've been so looking forward to having this conversation.  He and I met online, and I could tell, like, just as we started getting chatting, I was like, I really have to talk to this person, because I know they've got some good stuff. And sure enough, we did talk. It was such a great conversation, and I'm so thrilled to introduce him and that he agreed to come on the show. His name is Marcel De Jonghe, and he is the head of diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging for the largest local authority in Europe, and he brings such a unique perspective. Marcel has a mixed Zimbabwean and Belgian Heritage, and like many of us, he's had his own journey finding where he fits, and now he's dedicated himself to helping others find that sense of belonging too. He lives in Birmingham, UK, with his fiance and their little girl, who carries on that mixed heritage mantle, blending Marcel's background with her mother's White British roots, and together, they're all about making sure that she grows up knowing and loving every part of who she is. Isn't it like the best? You know, I think about our kids and the parts that we play in helping them through their identity journeys. Are you ready to meet him? Because he's really love it. Can't wait. Hey, Marcel, thank you so much for joining us. 

Marcel De Jonghe  04:34

My pleasure. Thank you for having me. 

Shawna  04:36

Yes, I've been so looking forward to this, as you heard, because we just had such a great conversation. And you know, I've been doing this for a while, talking to people, and there are certain threads that overlap, there are certain commonalities, but we each have a different story, because there's no one way to be mixed race. And one of the things I introduced about you is. Is that you have work in the space of dei as do I, and so that belonging piece is major to me. For me, I want to know that people feel like they are seen and like they have a sense of belonging. So I was wondering what inspired you to dedicate your work to fostering diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging.

Marcel De Jonghe  05:22

Think it's probably the way I was raised. In my family, we've always been very open about mental health, about physical health, and my mom and both my father both had quite severe mental health problems. And I think the thing is, there's always been a stigma around mental health, so the only way I could help them was by being open, honest, and having those conversations and trying to support people which then resonated into my career. And I started off my career in learning and development, which I primarily did that because I wanted to help people get a job be better at what they could do. I loved the challenge. I loved it when someone came and just couldn't get what they were trying to learn to do their job and offer my my time outside of work. So, right, okay, if you want to stay after work, I will make sure you will pass this and you will be in a position to be able to keep this role. But about a year before the murder of George Floyd, I started to do quite a lot of work in in the government sector, primarily around, how can people feel that they are included in every single thing which they touch? Yeah, so how are they reflected? You know, even small things, like just the pictures on front of magazines, on front of prospectuses. You know that that makes you identify with well, am I capable? So I started to do things like say, around age, around ethnicity, did things around culture as well, because there is a beautiful mountain part of culture in this world, the UK has a massive amount. Birmingham, where I live, is actually the first super diverse city in Europe, which means there are more non-White people in this city, yeah, than there are in any other city. So we've peaked at just over 51% and it is phenomenal. You know, it's every culture is here where you could possibly imagine. You just think.

Shawna  07:26

I never had that. When I was a child, I was very much in a area where it was predominantly White or Asian. There weren't a lot of Black people. There weren't a lot of mixed heritage people. So I have this theory that if you pay things forwards, it will slowly but surely change things. You know, if I have one conversation now today, and I sit down with someone and explain to them how I feel, give them my perspective, give my lived experience, that might give them the opportunity to step up and challenge some behaviors they see in the future, which then just resonates down the line, and I think that that's an opportunity I couldn't miss. So I'm now thinks about five years, six years into my career in EDI, and I love it. I you know that intersectional perspective as well? You know I always say that with more than just one aspect of our protected characteristics over in the UK, UK, that's what they're called. We have nine protected characteristics. We intersect multiple places, and there's an opportunity to create a beautiful tapestry of people over in this country and across the world, but we concentrate so much on just one specific thing quite often. Yes, actually, we are so much more than just that  Hear, hear and amen and all the things standing ovation, because all of that I agree with. We call them protected classes here. It's things like gender, people over the age of 40, race, religion, and right now, there's a few more identities that need to be protected, including people who have transgender identities or who are married in same sex marriages. So you're right, like we come with all these intersectional identities, and so we should be thinking about that salience has actually been on my mind quite a bit like, which of those stand out to us the most, and during which times of our lives, like in what contexts? And you were talking about your town, or your experience growing up not being like what it is where you are now, in and out Birmingham, and I was thinking about my childhood just yesterday, growing up where kids would be so mean to anybody who was othered anyway, that they looked a little bit different if they sounded a little bit different, you know, moved differently, whatever. And the younger generations today, I've got to say, like are so inspiring as they see all of these intersections, identities and celebrate people. They have a great deal of patience and understanding, and I don't even like the word tolerance, because tolerance just sort of feels like, Yeah, I'm putting up with it, right? But they really like embrace people, and are not afraid to call folks in or out or shut it down when people are mean to one another just for being who they are. So I think your story of not only wanting to help people through learning and development, but also help through this lens of the DEI or EDI, or whichever acronym you want to use that means helping people feel included, is fantastic. Kat, what comes up for you?

Kat Aragon  10:42

You know, it's just one of the things that I started to think of while you were talking to Marcel that I had, I guess in school, you know, I would have people come up and ask me, you know, like, well, what are you or what's Why do your eyes look like that? Or why do your lips look like that? And just like, different, you know, questions. And for some reason, like, it would always take me back. But I think that's probably where I got my like, think quick on my feet, kind of, you know, like in person that I become is kind of like, Oh, I could just, like, pivot and move to this point, or, you know, or like, like, Oh yeah, I'm this and, or that's for my mom, you know. And so I don't think I really ever internalized a lot of it, when I started to internalize it, it was always more in an outward expression. So I think you guys could probably relate to that meaning, like, if somebody else was going through it, like, I would want to be like mama bear, or I'd want to fight and advocate for them, so much more I realized than myself. And so it's interesting, when you talking about that I was like, that is so interesting that I I never really, um, advocated for myself until I saw, you know, other people feeling that way, and then I would be like, No, I totally understand where you're coming from. I just put that together. I don't know what that means. I don't know why it happened that way for me, but it does explain a lot in my life. So just thought that was interesting, that that came up for me, very similar. I think I've I've stepped in two arguments and other situations to defend others. But when it's come to myself, you become a bit of a wallflower.

Marcel De Jonghe  12:09

It's quite difficult, because I suppose there's this you know internally, how much pain you can hold and how much will break you, but you don't know what it is for others. You know what their what their stress bucket is. So to speak, like some people, I know how much stress I can take as a person and how much insults I can take or even just let it roll off me, but I have no idea what a breaking point is for someone else. It's just the right thing, if I have the voice, if I have the ability to educate. I think that's the that's the key. It's not about berating. It's not about belittling the other person. You know, there's quite a large amount of the time things that they say are from a lack of understanding exactly agreed. So if I'm able to change that and give them a different perspective, or allow them to ask even questions, you know, that changes a lot. I find for a lot of people, you know, I've been called some horrendous things by people who thought, who I've worked with, who are friends, and they think it's perfectly acceptable I worked with someone he is, and they, you know, we were just talking ironically. This was someone who was in the office within HR, you know, and they just turned around and went, "Oh, so you're a mongrel", thinking that that is...

Shawna  13:24

Y'all can see my face, I'm sorry. 

Kat Aragon  13:27

I just just both of our eyes just shot wide open. 

Marcel De Jonghe  13:30

I just stopped her, "sorry, what?!" And not one other person in that room blinked. Everyone else is White. I'm the only person of any other ethnicity. And I mean, sorry, what? You know, I'm only joking. Now, at that time, I didn't do anything, because I know I could take that. I've had worse. But there is no positive connotation to be called a mongrel. You know, it's no also that's your HR person. And I'm thinking, that's who is setting those the bar example and the guidelines for the rest of this. Luckily, they weren't HR, but they were in the office where HR, HR would have picked it up, right? You know? They would have gone, sorry, there's also that, yeah, yeah. But it's there seems to be a a filter for certain comments, which are funny to an extent, at the expense of other people. You know, I'm not just talking about ethnicity, I'm talking about sexual orientation, I'm talking about age, I'm talking about, you know, oh, I'm having a blonde moment. The amount of women who say that to themselves, I'm like, Well, do you understand how you're just dragging down other women by saying you're having a blonde moment? One women aren't stupid. There's no scientific data which proves this. Yeah, we use these statements, and it's catching ourselves all the time. I think that's what we really got to do. We've got to police ourselves first before we can go out and police people. 

Shawna  14:51

Yes, I agree, but I also think the education is part of it, because I've been part of conversations where it's not even like the person is trying to be funny. It's just maybe. Something they've heard growing up around older family members or whatever that was acceptable to say at some time, not because it was okay, but because it was socially acceptable to say. And they, I guess, didn't get that memo that it is not okay to say.  This happened to me when I lived in the Czech Republic, I was working in an office, and there was a colleague of mine. We always were in the office, but we needed to go out during this one day, and so we're all together, and for whatever reason, part of our group was somewhere else, so we're just sort of like standing around the parking lot, and this person walked behind me, and he goes, Oh my God, and straight up refer to that person. It's not someone we knew, but this person walking behind me as the N word. And I just, I had to stop, because I was like, I don't know that I actually heard what I heard. And I kind of looked and then I was like, What did you say? And he just said it again. And I said, Okay, we have to, we have to talk right now, like right now. And so this wasn't a let me wait until we get back to the office moment. And thankfully, this conversation went really well. It wasn't an American didn't understand how awful that word was, but had only been taught that word to refer to Black people. So for all of his life, until that moment, passed down conversations. Yeah, that's how he referred. But part of it had to do with culture, different country, different language, and just not knowing that country is not very diverse anyway. So that's also part of why he pointed out the person. Like, why would you even point out the purse? You know? So there was that piece. So, you know, I think sometimes as we're policing ourselves, and we find ourselves in a situation where we might have to, I don't want to even use the word police, but we might have to bring to attention something that's not okay. We have to pause to make sure that we're not about to, like, jump all over a person who really just doesn't have the information. Like, I was flabbergasted, because I'm like, how do you actually not like, but the way he was so horrified when I told him how this was, I knew he wasn't lying to me that he really didn't know. Also, when I said, What did you say? He said it again. Like, not like, oh no. He was like, yeah, there's and I'm like, okay, yeah, no, yeah, this conversation. So we all have some growing to do. And at the same time, while we know others do too, I believe extending some grace, at least getting the information before we start, like, flip it out, like I really wanted to do inside Marcel, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about your identity journey. How has your perception of your identity changed over the years. You know, you've kind of given, sort of a workplace, like setting of what you've experienced, but I'm wondering if there's, like, any particular moments that stand out to you, or anything that has shaped your understanding of who you are? 

Marcel De Jonghe  18:15

Yeah, yeah. So I live in a city called Coventry, which is not too far from Birmingham. I lived in a poorly social, economic area, so wasn't very healthy, a mix of White and Asian, a lot of Black people. There was no Black children in my school year. I was like of mixed heritage. My mum, being a Black African woman, was an anomaly, and it was weird to see, but you don't notice those kind of things that's a young, young age. You're in primary school, so about seven or eight, and it's secondary school, and I would go from one side of the city to the other to go to secondary school, just I was an okay student. So I managed to get into an okay school. What happened was, I, again, was like, one of the only people who was of at least Black Heritage in my year, even in this other my secondary school, yeah. So I ended up being pulled out to go in for pictures, for things like, oh, we need a prospectus. So do you want to be in a picture? Hold a good book. Oh, yeah. And you suddenly think, oh. And then one day, click that. Hold up. I am. You are the representation. I'm, yeah, yeah. Oh, great. You know, like, most people ask me, Kat, I get that a lot, like, I don't understand that. The question when people ask, what are you? Like? You're not. You're an object. Like, what are you might not know it's, it's, what is my identity? What is your heritage? People don't ask that they they still feel that what are you is an acceptable question because I've got freckles, I've got mafro. I'm quite light skinned as a mixed heritage person, but I do tan easily. I just don't like the sun. And also, I live in England. If you know anything of here, we we perpetually reigns here. So you know, if you get the sun, it's you're lucky. Then it was one time on holiday. We were in Greece, and my mom and my dad, my stepdad, yeah, there's loads of sun, beautiful place. My dad, my stepdad is as a White guy.

Speaker 1  20:21

My mom, Black woman, and we were by a pool, and we're swimming around, and I started hearing some racist comments from this girl, and I'm thinking, and I didn't realize they were talking about me, my sister, my mom and my dad. Now my dad, who is a White guy, loves the Son. He's tanned, so probably looks more Dutch or German than anything else. So she thought we weren't English speakers, and she was just, she's felt free to say whatever she wanted to say that. And I just remember, and I was in the swimming pool, and I've done a few laps, and I can feel myself getting very hot this water, so I just turned around to swim up to him and say, by the way, I understood everything you have just said. And this girl got up out of the pool. When I spoke to her parents, they all left, and I never saw them again the holiday. So I don't know what they did, but it was the first time I ever stood up for myself. First time I stood up for my ethnicity. But then I started to notice from that point onwards, a large amount of discrepancies in the way my mum was treated compared to my dad. My mum from Zimbabwe, also known as South Rhodesia, at the time, when she lived there was a Commonwealth country. She speaks the Queen's English. If you heard my mom over the phone, you would probably imagine a very wild do White woman. You then meet my mom, and she's a four for 10 black woman who is like this little thing. It's like "heya!" And you see, genuinely, the confusion of people's faces because they spoke to my mom on the phone, and 

Shawna  22:05

they have some expectations. 

Speaker 1  22:06

My mom's name's Eve, so it's Eve De Jonghe, and it's you're not there's not an African name, so there's this African woman in front of you. And then once we started to have those conversations, my mom just opened up about all the things, like bizarre things she's been asked whilst over the UK, when she moved over here, you know, when she started to work at a bank, someone asked her, you know, is it different? You know, is it odd getting used to sleeping in a bed? My mom's like, what would you be? And the woman was, like, sleeping trees and stuff like, what? Oh, my God. Well, this is for real. This is what this is. You know, this was the early 80s, and you just think that's the key. That's where I come back to education. We know so little about other places. We know so little about

Marcel De Jonghe  22:52

the world outside of our comfort zone that consumes some really terrible media sometimes, and think that that is what it is, and therefore pick up things like behaviors like you said, you know that person the Czech Republic just purely thinking that they could say the N word, because that's all they knew. Once you've educated them and you've been able to explain why, and also, I always think about how that makes you feel, that might potentially make someone else feel if they carry on, then it's shotgun time. It's like, you know, I'm sorry, but you are now making a choice. 

Shawna  23:25

That's that's a different story, right exactly now, it's a choice. So just hearing that story about your mom's experience and the questions asked, just for listeners who are thinking right now, like, well, what if I don't know. And I mean, okay, it's no longer the 80s. First of all, we have computers in our pockets. Most of us are able to access information to educate ourselves. But I was also thinking about, if you do have some curiosity, how could someone ask, right? Just like, how the difference between what are you and what's your racial or ethnic background or your heritage is different, and even some people aren't comfortable with that. But if you know you're in a situation where you could at least ask that way, that's one thing and and maybe before you lead with your assumptions based on what you've guessed or what you've been told, rather than saying, Is it difficult getting used to sleeping in a bed? You might ask a question, like, so what's it like where you're from? And allow that person to share their story with you if they want to. The other caution I have, even with that question is assuming that someone is from place different where you are just because of the way that they look. Because that happens a lot too. Where people will be like, Oh, where are you from? And you're like, I am from here, because they're expecting you to look different. 

Marcel De Jonghe  24:48

The amount of people think I can speak fluent French is shocking. Like my full name, oh, because of your name, my name, born, raised in the United Kingdom all my life that I...my biological father just really insisted on making me sound like something out of a Poirot episode. I point out to my mum that she was really cruel to allow that to happen because I have more letters in my name than the alphabet. But people make that assumption, and I've had a recruiter who rang me once got my number off my CV, and was like, talking to me. She's like, Oh, let me find you on LinkedIn. You hear it? And she's like, No, I can't find you. All I can find is this guy with loads of freckles. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, that's me. And she's like, oh. And I was like, What were you expecting? Just blonde hair, blue, White guy. 

Kat Aragon  25:42

You know, it's so funny because me and my husband we're on the shorter side. We are very similar features, dark hair, dark eyes and stuff. And then people are like, we just figured you'd be like, tall blonde, like, "Aragon", like, you're just like, I don't know, European top blonde people. And I was like, Really, that's what gave you my last name. You thought that. But, yeah, I get that. Everybody thinks I would have any kind of Spanish, you know, well, I mean, outside of being Filipino, but outside of, you know, that is like, so Spanish background where I actually speak Spanish, I do not like, I literally am White and Filipino, so, but I can't get past that because my actual married name is Aragon, so they're gonna speak to me in that way. You know, regardless, I feel like I just need to catch up. I Duolingo all the time.

Shawna  26:28

There you go. There you go. So I it's so funny. Mine has nothing to do with my name. It has everything to do with my ambiguous appearance. And you've heard me say this, I think before cat, it depends on my hair, so I change my hairstyle a lot. If I'm wearing long, straight hair, people think that I'm Hispanic. They speak to me in Spanish all the time. I have been practicing. So maybe I can't answer, but I'm always like, I am not Hispanic. I'm not Latina. Then it comes to this other assumption. So when I've lived in a lot of places and people even without knowing that they're they just want to put me in whatever box because they can't figure it out. Though, they can't figure out what I am. That was by air quotes. And so they'll ask the where are you from? Question, so, where are you from? And then I answer, I'm from Alaska. I'm from Anchorage, Alaska, which likely not expecting, oh my gosh, wow. You're from Anchorage. That's so nice. Wow. So are you Eskimo? And then you have to stop and explain why that is a problematic term and and also that there's a lot of different sort of indigenous people all around this world, and I'm actually not one of them. I just happen to be a person that grew up in that space, but again, kind of thinking about, like the questions asked of your mom, Marcel. People have last chance to some image or some idea of what that must mean, and since they can't figure out my ethnicity, my background, then they just plug it in, like, Oh, okay. She said, Alaska, Alaska equals this...must be this. So the biases and assumptions there are plentiful around here, I don't know. Have you ever felt any pressure to conform to some sort of way of being or expectation that others might have of you?

Marcel De Jonghe  28:23

Yeah, yeah. I think most of my life you have to pick a side, or at least you don't have to. But there is the forced hand there by this. So my mum's side of the family, I've been referred to as not being Black enough, which I've never understood. That statement, you know, I don't act like or quite a set it in me, and I don't quite get it. And then when you ask, it's like, oh, well, you know, you just think you're better than me. I'm, well, I don't think I'm better than you. I don't think I'm better than anyone, to be honest, I said, but what you are doing is by saying that you're thinking that there are certain ethnicities which are better than other ethnicities. There is, you know, we need to, yeah, I've never thought about that. Actually, you just got me just now, because I've heard that a lot too in my life, growing up like, Oh, you think you're they're always trying to tell, well, not anymore, but when I was a kid, were always trying to tell me who I thought I was and what I thought about other people. But I never, I guess I hadn't considered that in assuming that I think that I'm better, or that I'm whatever fill in the blank, that they must be adopting that same sense of social hierarchy, just by making the accusation is that what you're saying is that what you mean? Yeah, I think it comes from the term race, doesn't it? Really, because it a race, there is always a first, second, third and so forth. I don't like the term race. Sorry, hold on. I just, you know, I don't like the term 

Kat Aragon  29:49

that is a new, total, new framework for me. I'm sorry. I 

Shawna  29:54

I never saw it like that. I always thought like "Raza", like...okay, I'm just gonna let you keep talking. I didn't mean to blow it away. I was just like, what? 

Kat Aragon  30:04

I'm gonna start taking notes here. 

Marcel De Jonghe  30:06

That's my learning and development hat coming back. I think for me, race is just a dangerous term. I don't like it. I've never have, you know, race when we use it in any other way, there has to be someone who wins. There always has to be dominant winner in society is generally a White person. You know, you find that White people in society, and it's not for wanting, it's just that the world has been built predominantly by White people, so therefore it is more orientated towards right White people. Like, Sure, it's not intentional, but it just is a product of the system, which we've got. It used to be intentional, though, yeah, yeah. Very much. So, very much. So, so for me, I prefer the term heritage, you know, because I think we all have heritage. We're a mix of everything. But my identity has always been difficult for me to grasp as a child, I didn't have people who were like me, except for my sister, and unfortunately, me, my sister. There's no denying that we look at look alike. My sister still gets stopped now in in the city, she still lives in coviddary and people like, I know you. I know you. She's like, No, no. You know my brother. You know my brother. Basically, if I pull my hair back, I usually have a favor this Afro look. Look, youcan see my brother. His name's Marcel, yes, yeah, yeah. So it's there's no denying the family connection there, but there is no out looks like me, yeah, or has the same mix of heritage as me, and I don't know another White, balk Zimbabwean person other than my sister. So there's that lack of sense of community which therefore impacts my belonging. And I didn't realize for a very long time that I didn't feel like I had a sense of belonging. I didn't understand because I was letting go of certain bits and orientating to it towards certain aspects, like I was brought up on R and B music. That was, that was my mom, that was Motown RMB. That was it. So when I went to school and stuff like that, and no one else listened to that music, I suddenly was out of the loop. And music, for me, it's an integral part of my life. So I remember going to secondary school, and there was this group called Oasis, 

Shawna  32:23

oh yeah, 

Marcel De Jonghe  32:24

and people. And there's the 90s. You know, this was the 90s. And I'm like, what the hell is this? These people have got absolutely no vocal talent. It's all over the place.

Shawna  32:36

They really, that's the Wonder wall. People, yeah, it was, like, intentionally flat. I choose to believe it was intentionally flat. Yes, believe that there was this thing called Brit pop, and it was blur versus oasis. I don't know if you know the two groups, but they were and there's me going "what??". I remember going to school singing primary school, and my mom probably getting a bit in trouble singing Marvin Gaye, sexual healing, not understanding a single word of the song. But that's like, Motown. I was brought up on Motown. That was like, I, you know, I love Marvin Gaye,  picturing like, like 8-year old Marcel, "wake up...wake up...wake up"

Marcel De Jonghe  33:19

understanding a single word of it. And I don't remember the Group k7 and they did a song,  terrible song. I was in primary school, so 

Shawna  33:31

I never thought about those words either. Yeah, kind of

Marcel De Jonghe  33:38

makes sense now, yeah, yes. And I knew the whole song, and like, no one else like, and I was like, trying to get my friends to join in my world. Then, yeah, the amount of comments I used to get was like, and people think this is a positive again, but they think we should look why you're one of us, like, Oh, wow. Okay. So to understand by doing that, you were removing part of who I am, and you're basically saying that I should forget about the other half of my my identity, which is also my mom. Yeah, then all my my friends used to love coming around my house because of mom's cooking my mom, everything has to have spice, and everything has to have some form of flavor. It's, you know, even a roast chicken would burn you somehow put something in it, and it became that I was the person who had the in on Black culture, but I didn't, because I wasn't not Black.  I'm just someone who just happens to embrace certain parts of the culture which I like. And it's not me trying to remove some of the identity sound I don't like that part of my culture. Don't like certain aspects of it, but I've had jokes said to me by people in the last couple of years, well, you're half Black, so you know, you could probably run faster than that person and like and years ago, I would have just rolled with that and joked along with it, because it was easier to then have to acknowledge it and address it, but now I am more than happy to educate people about that, friends who have, I've known for years, and go, do you know how terrible that is? Yeah, and they're like, what? It's only a joke like, but it isn't because some part of me, you know is You're only saying that because of my ethnicity, nothing, no other reason. So So yeah, even now I think I did a post on LinkedIn, I still sometimes struggle because I don't see people who look like me, especially in the world of work. And I find that actually mixed heritage is only blossoming so much in the UK, especially like every 10 years, the UK has a census. So 2021 was the last census. 3% of the UK have stated that they are of some form of mixed heritage. But from the 2011 census to 2021 that's the largest group of people. They've increased by 25% of the UK, still a small population. So we are becoming more prolific, but we are such a tapestry. We're like multiple shades. You know, that's right. So it's, it's like you said it, there's never this part where I know someone I can go, go, yes, you're part of my identity as well. You felt the same struggle. I don't want to have to have people to have struggles, but there's strength in numbers, and the numbers are single digits. When it comes to mixed heritage, I find so our census is also every 10 years. It's on the the odds. 

Shawna  36:32

So we had from 2010, to 2020, in the US, a 276% jump. From 9 million to 33 point 8 million people. Now, part of it to be fair is that until the year 2000 we did not have a way to accurately capture who identified as mixed race, because people had to choose, I mean, historically in the US anyway, because of the slave trade, and in all of that history, we kind of subscribed to the one drop rule, otherwise known as hypodescent, where in some states it was Even if you were 1/32 Black, right? That was all that equaled 100% Black. It wasn't until 2000 that people could say, I have mixed racial heritage and choose different like I think it even, it didn't even let you choose at that point. I think it just you checked two or more, or something like that. Then in 2010 you could check two or more and write something in and then in 2020 it's even opened up more. But you said, I don't see anybody like me, and not to mention that people can be mixed and still not be like you. So what does that mean when we're trying to do dei work as practitioners, setting up employee resource groups and all those things where it's like, that's so nice, that's great. But where do you go if you fit everywhere or nowhere? How do you handle that? Do you feel like you've gotten any closer to a sense of belonging? Like, what would it take to feel a sense of belonging?

Marcel De Jonghe  38:23

Safety. In this year alone, I've been told that I am not what I am by people who I denied. Denied your Yeah, what? Tell me about that? Being told that, oh, that person's White reference to me, and not quite understand the action of mixed heritage. So therefore, am I the right person for a job? Am I the right person step into that that arena, and then I've been questioned as well. How do I feel about doing this job since the since someone else who was doing it was of an ethnic minority. And I was like, so what? And then when you clearly don't understand these, yeah, I my skin is in this game as well. I said, you know, I'm actually mixed heritage, yeah, yeah, literally, yeah. It's like, I've mixed heritage. And they were like, what? I'm like, Yeah, but that doesn't matter. That shouldn't matter. You're saying that one of the main things and skill sets you need to be able to do the job, which I do, is to be a minority. So do not see how that is a problem on its own. I said it should be that the person who's coming here is compassionate, capable, educated, is able to make the changes, and does that matter? If I'm white, black, purple, orange, green, able-bodied, disabled, it doesn't matter so, but you are putting unnecessary barriers in place primarily because you thought I was White, right? And that is the...that is a barrier which is unnecessary, but we do it in society constantly. So, my main aim is, is for belonging is that it's not binary anymore, because I think that was the problem so often I'm either White or I'm either Black, and they are polar opposite when it comes to certain aspects of life, and I'm not there, I'm not either, and I don't want to turn around and say, I'm a Black man, I'm a White man. I'm not because isn't my identity.  I'm a mix of multiple other threads in my life. My ethnicity happens to be part of that and the culture which I picked up from, say, my mum, especially. But through my life, I am begged, stealing and borrowing from everything I I'm exposed to. You know, living in Birmingham, the last 10 years, I have learned so much more about the Muslim culture, because we have a lot large population of Muslims here, and it's fantastic, but that was because I've been able to ask questions, be sensitively curious, by asking, Okay, why is Why is Ramadan so important to use? Why is Eid something which you do, and why is it that you only do it after sunset and then sunrise? And I've been able to have these conversations with people, and we just don't do that. And I think there's this fear around mixed heritage people of saying, well, you're either this or you're that, and you're not allowed to traverse between the two. Problem is, I am mixed. It's right at the big it's the first word, which you used when you talked about, talk to me, unless we go right back to the 80s, and it was half cast in the UK, which, oh, oh, I talked to you about that. I told you. Must have told you a story of, I do have half cast, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Shawna  41:47

Kat is like, what are you talking about? 

Marcel De Jonghe  41:50

There's a great poem, which is, actually, I don't know if it still is, but it was taught in UK schools, and it was all about, actually, am I half the keys on the piano? And it is all about a gentleman who talks about actually using the term half caste is really derogative because it means when you cast a pot to bake it to make it set so you're not quite cooked, you're not quite set as a person. So it's a really derogative term as well. But I used to use it as a kid at the time, 

Shawna  42:18

I thought it came from CASTE, like social caste. I didn't know that. Interesting...

Marcel De Jonghe  42:23

I used to do it all the time to myself. I'm happy to 

Shawna  42:26

say that describe yourself that way?

Marcel De Jonghe  42:28

Yeah, as a child, I didn't know any better, because, 

Shawna  42:30

sure, 

Marcel De Jonghe  42:31

that was a term introduced and then when someone, I think was at school, when we were doing the poem, explained why it was such a derogative term, it completely made me think, well, I'm never going to refer to myself like that game, because I'm not. I'm not game, because I'm not, I'm not half the person, right? I'm a whole identifiable human being, and I'm fully aware I can pass as a White person, yeah, especially in my career, I wear suits, usually when I'm at work, but then when people see me in my casual wear, it is completely polar opposite to how I dress. So truly, the way you're dressed, yeah, changes how people see you, yeah, and like the music I listen to, like, oh, I never would have thought you would listen to that kind of music. I'm like, okay, so that tells me a little bit about what you think certain music is in regards to identity, that I know more White people who listen to hip hop than I do, but you'll find that there is, there is this ambiguity now, of there isn't so many things like, Oh, well, only Black people listen to R and B and hip hop and so forth. Yeah, I know so many White people who could school me on R and B and hip hop, and it's not something I go, Well, you can't list that kind of music, like I've I love all genres of music, but I am currently stuck on a guy called Ray LaMontagne, and he's an exceptionally White country kind of singer. And I know that some of my friends would be like, this is outside of your normal listening. Like, that's the whole point. The world is this amazing place. 

Kat Aragon  44:08

Yeah, I love the normalizing of things happening now. Like, just the I loved how you said, I'm sensitively curious. And I know you mentioned you saw that John light up, and he said that too, because that's exactly how I feel when you asked a question earlier to Marcel. Like, how do you you know, how does one ask about somebody's background or heritage or whatever? And that was what was going through my head. I was like, I just, like, shared that I'm curious, you know, I want to know more. It's not that I'm curious. I just, I want to know more. Like, tell me about you. Like, it doesn't have to be about your race or whatever. It's like, you know, I'm just super interested, and I guess, sensitively curious about everyone because of everything you're talking about. Right now, it's like, you know, we have these predetermined assumptions of like, what somebody's going to listen to or whatever, based off their like, what they look like. But now, I guess having three older children. And like you said, the kids that right now are just so open and so accepting and so loving and so, you know, I live through their eyes now like, you know, it has definitely shattered even things that I might have had, you know, ideas about. And I'm like, Oh, I know nothing like Teach me through your eyes. You know, it's been great watching them as they grow older. And I do think that, thank goodness, future generations are going to be more curious. Are Already more curious, but I do hope that that becomes more of a normalized conversation going forward like i i do have hope, you know, that that we're going there. It takes a while, and I see a lot of things that speak opposite to that, but I do have hope. You know, that there's that we're gonna eventually be in the right direction and being curious enough, you know, 

Marcel De Jonghe  45:49

It's those strong, open questions, I think that's we need, you know, just, I think it's sometimes even saying, right? I want to make sure that you could bring your advice out of what tell me something which allows me to better understand who you are, your culture, what, what's important to you. So I can make sure that, if I have the power and the facilities, I can make sure that that's something which happens for you. So that's why I think sensitively curious is important to understand. And sometimes say that I really do want to learn, so I apologize if I make some mistakes, but tell me what you think I need to know to make sure there is a space for you here.

Shawna  46:45

I really love where you're taking us with "sensitively curious". On one hand, we want people to be informed. We want them to take the responsibility to learn and to educate themselves. But on the other we say, don't put the burden on somebody else to act, to teach you. I just wonder how you kind of reconcile that, how you negotiate that, how do you balance that? 

Marcel De Jonghe  47:10

Back in 2020, this was something which was bugging me. I was always finding that Black people, especially after murder George Floyd, were constantly being asked questions and to regurgitate some emotional pain now that's uncomfortable continuously having to re, re live that pull the scab off. But in a previous organization, I proposed something which someone else, thankfully already had put forward to the organization, which think it was like reverse mentoring, and it was specifically around, okay, how do we have those conversations in a sensitive way? So I was asked, with my Alan d hat on, and this I was stepping into the D and I space was, okay, how would you propose you do this matter? I'm like, well, first things first is, if you want people from Black or Asian minority ethnic groups to talk about their experiences. There has to be quid pro quo. Has to be reciprocal relationship. Here, you know, what do they get for it? And also it's up to them how much they give. So we designed this program called mutual mentoring. Okay? Rich paired up a more senior White person with a more junior, Black, Asian or minority ethnic colleague here, we used some science psychometric testing, and we did some other things and statements and stuff, and we meticulously paired these people up. We took them through for a year, and in agreement they had with each other.  You know that everything they said was going to be with them and them only, and if they wanted to share, anything else has to be explicitly agreed by the other party as well. It took them through programs of things which like privilege, microaggressions. It talked about things like we did talk about White privilege. We did talk about cultural identity and appreciation and appropriation. The reason we got a more senior person was you knew that that Black, Asian or minority ethnic person doesn't generally have anybody to be able to tap into, because there aren't many of those people who look like them in the organization. So that was the reciprocal part. They became partners over a 12 month period, and that produced phenomenal results. That produced people who had long, lasting relationships, who still speak to each other, even if they've left the organization where they've been able to advocate for them. You know, most career development isn't just because you're the right person, it's because you know the right person, someone can advocate for you. Someone could say, oh, by the way, yeah, have you? Have you met X, Y or Z? Here they are, and the door's been left open because that person there to put their foot through it, and you find Black, Asian, minority, ethnic people in the UK don't have those people because we're not represented in senior roles, and that accelerated so many people's careers as well. It's got to be quid pro quo.

Shawna  50:06

As a parent, I know that it's very important to you to instill certain things and your child, and I was wondering what values and insights you aim to pass on to your daughter about her mixed heritage, and how do you help her, or plan to help her embrace the fullness of her identity?

50:25

She loves books. She's 15 months old, and she wakes up and she stands up in a cot and she says Book. She's got a plethora of them, and I read to her all the time, but we've got books with multiple identities in children aren't all White. We've got a book which is specifically about Zimbabwe, which the heritage, and it's for children before she was even born. I bought the book called the A to Z of diversity, and it was one of the first books I ever got her before she even was born. The world is one of the most complicated things you will ever have to traverse. So for me, I will try and instill in her as much as I can, that even though you're one person in how many, what 8 billion, you will be like the butterfly effect. Your impact will be phenomenal wherever you go. It ought to be absolutely damaging, but the wrong choice of word or picking on someone, bullying, saying something you may not realize it, but that leaves a scar. I always say microaggressions are death by 1000 cuts. It's not the first one, it's not the second, it's not the third, it's the one which was minuscule and it meant nothing to the person who said it or did it. That's the one which breaks you. Yeah, so you don't know what other people are going through. So just be good. And I try to say this to everybody, and it's easier said than done. It takes tolerance, and sometimes I've caught myself where I've stepped or walked past someone, and I can see that there's something wrong here, and you just turn around and go, like, hey, if I was in this situation, what would I want to do? What would I want to experience? And that's why I want to instill in her. All my friends joke say that my child is going to be one of the most "wokest" children there are going to be. She's going to be defending everybody and everything and anything, but I will always tell her, stand up for what you know is right. You have to, because no one else will. 

Shawna  52:35

I love it. Oh, this time went so fast. I could talk to you all the time. This is so great. Kat, do you have anything just before we end?

Kat Aragon  52:57

Just just a thank you like, this was great. I even in the last week, I don't even know how many times I said many times I says death by 1000 paper cuts. So when you said that, I was, like, exactly like, you just never know those microaggressions, like, you know, especially when you, like, catch on, like, even you just your first experience of you mentioned about your first experience racism, and then all of a sudden you're woken up to your mom being treated in a different way, right? So it's like you have those moments and then every little thing seems like a paper cut to anybody else, but it's because you have that first moment that everything else starts just heavier and hurt more. So I completely understand that, and I like to point it out whenever I can, and just have those conversations with people that might not be knowing that they're doing, that might not be knowing that they are creating so many more of those cuts and everything, until you like, just have that understanding, and then it stops, and then all of a sudden, those other cuts start to heal. So I really love that you spoke about that. Thank you so much for your time, too. 

Marcel De Jonghe  54:00

My pleasure. Thank you.

Shawna  54:02

All right. Well, I guess you better wrap. I will be reaching out to you again, Marcel, very, very soon. Thank you so much for your time. Just before we end, you want folks to be able to reach out to you anyway, 

Kat Aragon  54:15

or follow you or anything?

54:16

Yeah, yeah, you can either follow me on LinkedIn. I'm not a prolific poster, but I do try and when I do post, I do like to try and give an insight into different perspectives, and try and make people question, maybe their their previous ways of seeing the world. The first thing is, go out there. Be sensitively curious, like genuinely go out like, if you wanted to know a question, do your research on the internet, but go and ask that person, how can I make you feel that sense of belonging? Just go and google why belonging is so important to the human. There's that way we need it. You know, there is physical and mental benefits for it. So have that uncomfortable conversation, but be sensitive and actually this is person's background, and it is a makeup of who they are. Yeah, 

Kat Aragon  55:07

love that. 

Shawna  55:07

All right, all right. Y'all well, take care. Well, we'll talk to you soon. Thanks again. 

Marcel De Jonghe  55:13

Speak to you soon.