Third Culture Stories: Identity, Belonging, and Finding Home with Urmi Hossain

In this episode, Dr. Shawna Gann and Rachel Sadler sit down with Urmi Hossain—polyglot, author, global citizen, and financial services professional—for a deep conversation about identity, cultural complexity, and belonging. Urmi, who describes herself as "Bengali by blood, Italian by birth, and Canadian by law", shares her experiences as a third culture person navigating family expectations, global transitions, and what it means to truly belong.

The three discuss the nuanced layers of culture, race, and language—what it’s like to be misunderstood or misidentified, how appearances influence assumptions, and why storytelling matters. Urmi also shares insights from her book Discovering Your Identity: Rebirth from Interracial Struggle, a memoir chronicling her personal and cultural evolution as a South Asian woman raised in Italy.

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Transcript

Shawna Gann (00:00)
Well, Rachel, what is going on with you these days? Anything exciting? Another Mustang? You bought a motorcycle? You've gone hang gliding?

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (00:07)
I feel like, not yet.

Not yet. I feel like every time you ask this question, it is some foolishness and shenanigans over here. So those of us that are of a certain age, I throw out my back tending to flowers.

Like be for real, I was doing something regular. I do the power lifting, I do the Muay Thai, I do the things, and my back is fine, but let me go ahead and water some mums. My back is like, nope, snapped up.

Shawna Gann (00:35)
That's, you know, I'm sorry, that's unfortunate. But also so understandable and unfair because we're not ready to have like back thrown out stories. And like you said, it's not like, you know, I was carrying this 80 pound box up this like five story walk up and I'm sorry.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (00:56)
No,

no. Yeah, so that is how I'm doing. I am currently sitting on a heating pad with some ibuprofen in my system. How about you, friend?

Shawna Gann (01:07)
A lot of focus on this book, which I'm excited about. I guess that's probably what I'll be talking about for a minute, because that is so much of what's happening. just chugging along.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (01:20)
Mm-hmm. to hear that.

Shawna Gann (01:20)
yeah.

So we have a guest today

She's a really neat person and I love whenever we get to have folks on that talk about what it is to be a third culture person because I think unless you've had this experience folks don't really get it.

Her name is Urmi Hossain and she describes herself as being Bengali by blood, but Italian by birth. She currently resides in Canada. And she also works in the financial services. She is a self-published author. She's a speaker and a mentor. And this is my favorite. She's a polyglot.

and she holds a CFA and CAIA charter. She is passionate about empowering women and she's actively involved with women in leadership as social media lead for the Victoria Chapter. And she serves as a campaign manager for FemInfluence. She promotes self-investment and personal growth and spends her free time reading and practicing Muay Thai.

I am so glad to welcome you. How you doing?

Urmi (02:23)
Good, good. How are you ladies?

Shawna Gann (02:25)
We're doing pretty good. we are present and smiling.

Urmi (02:29)
That's right, and it's Friday!

Shawna Gann (02:31)
Yeah. Okay, so I have gotten the opportunity to speak with you a little bit and we had a good old time because while our experiences aren't exactly the same, we have had some fun traveling around the world and confusing folks. Tell people a little bit about yourself with regard to being a third culture person. What's that mean?

Urmi (02:56)
Yes, so like you mentioned at the beginning I am Bengali by blood and Italian by birth and Canadian by law.

So I was born and raised in Italy. I grew up in Italy pretty much for most part of my life. And I lived both in the south of Italy as well as in the north of Italy. And for a year I also lived in UK to then come back to Italy. Both of my parents are Bengali. They are both from Bangladesh. And then in 2010 I have

moved to Canada. So I have sort of like a melange or a mix of different things within me, different cultures,  exposure. And even though I do define myself as being Italian by birth, Bengali by blood, I do consider myself a global citizen.

Shawna Gann (03:59)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, pretty global

And you have family that's experienced this too, but like in slightly different ways, yes?

Urmi (04:08)
That's right. That's right.

I think a little bit about my parents and I think a little bit also about my sister and my cousin for instance because you know my parents they have moved from Bangladesh to Italy right after they got married but they have always preserved their culture you know like no matter where they were they were always Bengali that's how they considered themselves and even now like they don't they no longer live in Italy they live in UK and even there they still preserve that.

Whereas me, feel like I always like adapt to wherever I'm moving and I try to basically integrate myself and be part of the new country. But I see that it's different for instance with my sister, I see that it's different also with my cousin. Like my sister, my cousin and myself were all born in Italy. All of our parents basically are Bengali but then I feel like my sister had a different experience. Like I don't think she considered herself

as a third culture kid and my cousin is the same thing. Yeah. And I don't know if they even went through the same struggle that I went through of, you know, not feeling like I was enough, not feeling like I was fitting in. And so I feel like we all had a different experience in that sense, even though, you know, we all have the same origins, we all come from the same country.

Shawna Gann (05:12)
Wow.

don't want to say I'm glad to hear you say that, because struggle is not something to celebrate, but at the same time, there's something very relatable about that. know, lot of folks that we talk to on the show identify either as being multiracial, multicultural, multiethnic, or in some way not fitting into a typical box that society makes. Like, so if you say, "I'm from Italy",

people have like an image of what an Italian person must look like. If you say I'm Canadian, they probably have an image of what Canadian looks like, which is why in the Start Here episode, I kind of break down the difference between nationality, race, ethnicity, culture, right? But as many folks as we've spoken to on the show where there are sort of these overlapping themes of experiences, everyone's experience is still different. So just to say,

Like if I spoke to another person who would describe themselves as a third culture person, they would have different experiences. So even within your same family, seeing that difference is very interesting to me.

Urmi (06:45)
Yeah, and I have a friend who moved from Iran and she lives in Canada, she doesn't understand the whole concept of "third culture kid"; she doesn't understand why I have to write a book about finding my cultural identity. She actually doesn't, even though I had...

this type of conversation and she was like, do you need to write a book about your identity? But for me, it's important. Like maybe she's not feeling like, maybe she feels like she fits the box, but I did not feel like I was fit in the box, you know? And then I spoke with another friend of mine who has a lot of ethnicity. Like her grandparents are from a certain country. They were raised in another country. The same thing goes to her parents that were born in another country, raised in another country.

Shawna Gann (07:16)
you

Urmi (07:33)
and herself too, she holds three nationalities and sometimes she's like, you know, I have these nationalities by law but then I'm not sure what I, you know, assimilate myself with, you know. So when we have this conversation, I feel like me and her, understand each other a little bit better because she holds more than one or two nationalities whereas with other people, I feel like I can never find like a common ground. Like I feel like we have a little bit of...

Shawna Gann (07:59)
Yeah.

Urmi (08:00)
difficulties in exchanging this type of conversation. So I feel like not everyone is able to relate to this.

Shawna Gann (08:07)
Sure. Rachel, it's coming up for you.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (08:12)
I'm thinking about like the idea of assimilation and you know, that's something I'm talking about in some of my classes. It's like in the States, there's this expectation of assimilation, right? Like to kind of eschew all of your identity that is not American and just become us. Whereas I prefer like, instead of like the melting pot analogy, the salad bowl, like a salad is great because it's got all these different things that are independent but come together to make this wonderful thing.

I wonder about other cultures or other countries rather like is there that expectation in Italy to assimilate or are there opportunities for people to kind of be who you are and be a part of that culture at the same time?

Urmi (08:55)
It depends who you speak to. I think if you speak to older generations, probably yes, because they have a certain mentality. But if you speak to a newer generation, I don't think they care too much. They just see you as you being you, you as an individual, you being as a human being.

But I think with older generations, like it happened even to me when I was living there, that people would come to me and tell me directly, but you're Italian, you you're Italian because you're born in Italy. But I never totally agree with that, honestly. Like, I feel like it wasn't, like, completely true because I know that I did not look Italian. You like you said at the beginning, you know, there is an expectation of how Italian people look like.

And so it really depends, I would say, who you speak to. And then you spoke about salad. So the word that comes to me is minestrone. I don't know if you know the minestrone soup, which is a mix of like the Italian soup, which is a mix of different vegetables. I think of that when I think about the simulation, I think it's more like a mix of different things and that's the beauty of it, you know? And so like, and there was another thing that came to my mind is that there was this girl that I follow on Instagram.

Shawna Gann (09:50)
mm-hmm, the soup.

Urmi (10:10)
And basically you look at her, so she is Asian. Her parents are from China. However, she's born and raised in Italy. And she makes this videos about how people think that she's Chinese, but she doesn't see herself Chinese. She actually sees herself Italian.

Shawna Gann (10:30)
Right.

Urmi (10:32)
She was making fun of how people come and they ask her where are from and she says I'm from Italy but then people stare at her and be like no but where are you from? And she's like I'm from Italy, you know? And she does not see herself exactly. And she does not see herself Chinese. So she's like I don't understand why people are always questioning things. And so yeah, I would say that's pretty much about it.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (10:41)
You

Shawna Gann (10:44)
Sound familiar?

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (10:46)
Yeah.

Shawna Gann (11:00)
Yeah, I think that's such a familiar story too. People are so hung up on our outward appearances. This happens also with, transracial adoptees. People who are adopted by their parents who do not share the same phenotypes or ancestry as them. So like a person in the States who's Asian but their parents are White.

They've grown up in a place where they've only spoken English and they have like whatever accent, like even a southern accent maybe or something like that. And it's so confusing to people because we have developed these schema, you know, in our minds of what we think a person's supposed to look like, sound like and so on. It's funny, I lived in Italy for five years and I wrote an essay about

diversity and I called it insalata mista for the same reason that Rachel said the mixed salad like it just seemed to make sense, but these days I like the analogy of a kaleidoscope because kaleidoscopes give you still all of these rich colors and shapes and putting these beautiful things together, but it's not fixed

Urmi (11:55)
see.

Shawna Gann (12:16)
Society changes kind of like how you talked about, depends on who you speak with, with the generation, whether or not they're going to have the mindset of assimilation or not. Like with one twist of that kaleidoscope, you still have people together in this analogy, but the way it looks has changed. The outlook has changed, right? It even looks different when you're facing light versus dark and whatever's happening in society can change your perception.

of what you're experiencing. So I like these different analogies, but in all of them, none of us said melting pot. We are not a melting pot. And I do think it's very short-sighted to see things that way or want them to be that way. Because with that analogy of the melting pot, it makes me feel like there's an unwillingness to see people

for their differences that they bring that actually enrich all these flavors in the in the salad, right? So, thank you for sharing

Yeah. Okay, I think the time has come. Tell us what a polyglot is.

Urmi (13:26)
polyglot is someone who can speak multiple languages and I can speak 4.5

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (13:26)
You

Shawna Gann (13:36)
4.5 excuse me

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (13:36)
Ooh, 4.5. I'm

Urmi (13:38)
Ha ha ha.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (13:39)
glad we

have a 0.5, so that means I speak 1.5. 2.5 if you count sarcasm and bitchiness, but.

Shawna Gann (13:41)
Right?

huh.

Urmi (13:49)
Yeah, but

my point five, it's something that I've been working on. So my point five is Spanish. I knew how to speak it, but then I graduated and I stopped practicing it. But now I constantly work on it. So hopefully it's going to be five languages.

But the other languages that I speak are Italian, Bengali, English and French. Some of these languages were, I would say, not by choice. Some others I consider them like my adopted mother tongue. I needed them to be there at school, or maybe I needed them to communicate, or maybe I needed them to work.

or to survive basically. So they all came in different ways in my life.

Shawna Gann (14:32)
Sure. So I'm taking, yeah, for sure. I'm taking Spanish right now. My Spanish teacher would say to you that you speak Spanish. It's not .5. It's just to what degree. So that's what she said to me. Because I have said something along the lines of, well, know, a little bit, or I'm learning, or not so much. And she's like, no, no, you're speaking it. You speak it. But so there you go. We're just going to bump you on up. We're going to round up, what do you to the five.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (14:33)
That's fascinating.

Yeah, let's go.

Urmi (15:01)
Sounds good.

Shawna Gann (15:02)
So I would love it if you're comfortable to tell the story, because I loved the story, about even your sister shopping.

Urmi (15:11)
Yeah, so both of my parents live in the UK and so does my sister. And at home, when we were living in Italy, we used to speak both Bengali and Italian at home. And Italian was the language that I used, that I brought at home and that I used to speak with my sister.

Now what happened is I was in UK for vacation and me and my sister we were in this Indian store so basically we looking for Indian outfits and me and her we look pretty much alike we look like twin sisters although she's much younger than me and so what happened is we were both talking to each other in Italian and then the store assistant was staring at us because she was like what language are you guys speaking and then we answered

English by saying we're speaking Italian my sister has a British accent when she speaks in English and I have a non-British accent I have I don't know I guess it's Canadian I don't even know what accent I have but it's not British yeah I would say that yeah I would say it's Italian yeah I like having my Italian accent when I speak in English and so then what happened is the person was so confused because

Shawna Gann (16:12)
think it's Italian, it's not Canadian.

Urmi (16:26)
she was like, okay, these two people, look alike, they speak in a language that it's not their own language, but then when they speak in English, they both have different accent. And so anyway, we had to like go on and explain why I have this accent, why she has that accent, but it was funny. Like it never occurred to me that, know, this was something that was going to happen, you know? But now after this episode, I actually...

come to reflect how diverse is also my family, you know? Like even though we all have the same, you know, starting point, our end destination is not really the same because of all these journeys that we went through. And so that was a funny story that happened to me this summer.

Shawna Gann (16:59)
Yeah.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (17:10)
Bye.

I bet that was pretty startling to see two folks that look identical sound completely different. And I just wonder about like the cognitive dissonance that happens for all of us. Right. Like you talked about earlier, if you see somebody who presents as Asian, but they maybe have a British accent or you see somebody that looks probably African and they have like a Southern drawl and you're like, man, my brain, what I see and what I hear, my brain is trying to drill down on what it like,

where this person is from and why are there these competing narratives in my head and how that happens, I think globally, because our brains want to make these very quick decisions about people that unfortunately we can't make quick decisions because of people coming from so many different places.

Urmi (18:02)
I feel like we shouldn't make quick decisions about where people are from. But then I also feel like when we are in those situations, we just simply ask and not assume the origin of this person.

Shawna Gann (18:15)
You know, I have a question for both of you, because that brings to mind something. one of the things for people who are racially ambiguous, like if you just can't tell what their ancestry is or so on, is for people to say like, "where are you from?" Or that question, "what are you?" Or they want to know why you look how you look, basically. So they ask different ways.

And I think people are a little more savvy today than they were several years ago. When I was growing up, it was just simply, "what are you?" Now people know that that's a little bit offensive and dehumanizing. So they'll ask around it. like, tell me where you're from. Where did you grow up? Where's your family from?

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (18:52)
Mm-hmm.

Shawna Gann (18:58)
But here's the thing, this woman asked me recently, because we were talking about the way that people try to find out why you look like you look. And she said, she asked, "well, isn't it OK if I'm just culturally curious and I want to know about their culture or their language?" And I said, you know, I think it just depends on the person and it depends on the relationship you have with them.

I just want to know your thoughts because Urmi, you said, know, it's better to ask than to make assumptions. But I guess maybe the question is how to ask in the most respectful way.

Urmi (19:35)
So that was my follow-up question to you actually, like how do you ask a question in a respectful manner because I am always told like where are you from and then people make assumptions. I don't like it when people make assumptions. I rather prefer that someone is just generally curious about me.

Shawna Gann (19:48)
Yeah.

Urmi (19:56)
But I also feel like when it comes to biases, you cannot avoid them. Everyone to a certain aspect is biased to certain things. So it's hard at the same time. I feel like we have to unlearn that to learn the better way. And I also think it comes from a place of...

like it comes from an innocent place. feel like no people when they're assuming things. But unfortunately, I feel like probably this kind of conversation they're having is helping these people to be better educated about the diversity.

I feel like it's always hard to ask the right question because you don't want to be too aggressive. You don't want to be too offensive. But like exactly.

Shawna Gann (20:44)
intrusive,

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (20:46)
Mm-hmm.

Shawna Gann (20:46)
you know, sometimes people say that feels intrusive or they don't want to explain, they're tired of explaining all the time.

Urmi (20:53)
Exactly, that's how I feel.

Shawna Gann (20:54)
But I agree

with you. yeah, having to break it down. But I agree with you that for some folks, you know, they're happy to explain and they just, they'd rather you ask, maybe, than to make the assumptions. But also...

Urmi (20:59)
Yeah.

Shawna Gann (21:13)
That's why my response was I think it depends on the relationship. maybe wanting to understand an accent is different than what are you.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (21:20)
Mm-hmm.

Urmi (21:22)
But you know what, I think also that the question of what are you is even better than where you're from.

Shawna Gann (21:23)
What do you think?

Urmi (21:29)
I feel that's much better. Because I feel like when you say where you're from, I think people expect one single country, but then they're not happy with the answer and then you find yourself explaining. But at least if you say, what are you, then I feel like you can give a more structured, organized answer. I don't know, that's how I feel about it.

Shawna Gann (21:52)
Do you think that just the nature of internet, social media, and all of that could be changing things? Because I think two things. When you talked about the older generations being more likely to be the folks who would expect assimilation, that's very different than now when people are much more transient and mobile, like people move.

a lot more now than they did back in the day. It's easier to move, relocate, and be around the world than it was so long ago. And also we can tap into other cultures and experiences with internet where maybe we, when I was growing up there might have been something on TV that I could catch. so if you only get this one window of something that you consume on television or something, I guess it's easy for those biases to form.

but maybe we're getting to a point where people have more access if they choose, because that's part of it too, is choosing to open your world up, right? But if they choose, then maybe they can learn a little bit more about folks.

Urmi (23:04)
So here's the thing about internet or any type of media out there, like I think it depends on what you choose to see.

because I'm going to give you a very good example. So back in Italy when I was growing up, people didn't know too much about Bollywood. They didn't know what it was. They didn't know that it was the industry where people would make movies in India. And then what happened is there was this channel on TV, in the Italian television, where they started to show more Indian movies. And then what happened is I used this opportunity

to educate my Italian friends about movies in Bollywood, what they're about and things like that. And I feel like they were very much welcoming the idea of learning and they learned a little bit about also like the country itself, what they do, how it looks like and so forth.

But then the problem is also with the social media and things like that is also like what they show in the news. Because sometimes I feel like when people think about India, unfortunately, we always think about violence against women. And that's because it depends on what you're following. Usually the media chooses what to show you. But if you are open to go there to choose a different channel, you can see that it's not just that. There's a lot more to that. And it's not just the bad things, but also good things.

but again it depends on what you're choosing to see

Shawna Gann (24:34)
Rachel looks deep in thought.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (24:37)
Because it is so nuanced when you think about mediated messages and the attentionality behind them and how, you know, like my only experience with images of like say India or some places like of 90 Day Fiance, right? And there's an attentionality behind where they go on 90 Day Fiance to tell a story.

And so it's like, it's very skewed. So is that the entire reality? No. But we think it is because like, what's on TV has got to be all there is because they didn't show nothing else, you know, and how these narratives can be skewed about any group of people based on what media shows us.

Urmi (25:24)
So it's a little bit like in Italy.

Because, you know, what do we think? When we think the word Italy, what do we think? We think the beautiful Dolce Vita, right? But then if you live there, we all have issues there. Like, you know, it's hard to find a job, you know, you need to have connections. Like I see it also with my friends who graduated, they still have difficulty finding jobs. Like, yes, you have this whole like glamorous life, your lavish life when you go to Italy as a visitor, as a tourist. But if you live there, you will see that it's difficult. But then I feel like people choose.

what to accept and what not to accept. So again, it goes back to biases, feel like,

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (26:01)
Mm-hmm.

I think that's why travel is so important for folks.

Shawna Gann (26:05)
That's really.

Yeah, and I think you're absolutely right like, travel as a tourist is completely different than living there.

Urmi (26:16)
Exactly, like I feel like people are always telling me, why did you leave Italy? Like why are you living in Canada? Italy is such a beautiful country. But I'm thinking, go and live there. You will see that it's difficult. It's not that easy. So even myself, too, I'm always asked this question, like would you go back and live there? As much as I love Italy, as much as it is my home.

Shawna Gann (26:28)
Yeah.

Urmi (26:38)
It's not a place I want to go and live right now, not at this stage of my life. Like maybe when I retire then I can think of it, you I don't have to do anything and I can have the Dolce Vita, you know, but right now.

Shawna Gann (26:49)
Then you can

be the nona and you can just like sweep your front step every day and go walk to your local store and...

Urmi (26:55)
Exactly,

Have coffee at the bar, you know, like in the piazza.

Shawna Gann (26:59)
Right? In la piazza.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (27:01)
That sounds delightful. That

Shawna Gann (27:03)
my

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (27:03)
sounds delightful right now.

Shawna Gann (27:04)
God. I mean, it was delightful, but you have to have the money, the safety to enjoy that. Well, I'd love for you to tell us about your book, because you mentioned it already. As part of your identity journey,

And knowing that you've lived in all of these places and you've had these really interesting experiences with folks trying to figure out what's going on with your accent or where you're living and so on. Yeah, please tell us about your book and how it has played a part in your own development with who you are.

Urmi (27:41)
Yes,

I self-published it in 2022. I was very much inspired by another self-published author who was Pakistani Canadian. And then what happened is one day after I came back from vacation, I sat down and basically started to write a little bit about my

journey. For me it was very therapeutic, this whole writing process, because it was just me writing about my life. So it was easy. It was like writing down my thoughts, my childhood, my teenagehood. And so as I was thinking about my life in Italy, I was just writing them out. It's sort of like journaling basically. And then I focused in this book mainly about

my life as a third culture kid but more from the perspective of a South Asian woman.

That's because yes, it was difficult for me to be, you know, culture kid not feeling like I was fitting in. But then there was the complexity of being a woman, like a South Asian woman. And being like a South Asian woman comes also with difficulty because parents have so much expectation on you. And because you're a girl, you just have to do certain things. Otherwise, people will talk bad about you. So there was always, you know, that fear that I better not make any mistakes.

know I should do that.

Shawna Gann (28:59)
like some pressure.

Urmi (29:02)
Yeah, exactly. And I feel like life would have been much easier if I was a boy, for instance. And I think this is global. It's so much easier when you're a man in the world. But for me, yeah, I also talked about that more from the perspective of a South Asian woman, how my parents would not allow me to do this, that. And I would see all of my high school friends who were having a typical teenage life, but I was not having that.

I talk about that in the book.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (29:31)
Hmm.

Shawna Gann (29:34)
yeah, because like you said, they brought culture with them. So it wouldn't matter what you're seeing around you if you're expected to live by the cultural norms of your family, no matter whether that's Italy or the UK or whatnot. yeah. That's a different sort of intersectional lens, I think, than we typically apply when thinking about diverse experiences.

Urmi (29:51)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (30:03)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I recently read We Have Always Been Here by Samra Habib and she has a very similar story. think her family is from Pakistan and they went to immigrated to Canada and talking about, you know, their identities being raised a girl, but identifying as queer and how that intersected with living in Canada, but also being from a Muslim family and expectations that were on her for, being ascribed female at birth.

and being raised that way and also not really identifying that way. it's a memoir, you know, for life and it's really moving. And then how it, how I saw a lot of myself with Christianity in that and how we are socialized around religion in these ways, I just thought it was really interesting. It's a really good read.

Urmi (30:44)
Mm.

Yeah, I had this like similar experience with religion as well because a lot of it because I also grew up in a Muslim family so every single time I was reminded about this that you know my parents would tell me you're not Italian and you don't follow the religion you know they'll always remind me of that but then I went to a school that was practically Catholic like we had the crucifix hanging in the classroom there was a church at school I would see nuns every day and I was

like you you're telling me this but then I see all of this around me how don't you not expect me to ask questions yeah and even like during Christmas I was reminded that you know we don't celebrate Christmas we don't do Easter all these things so it's a constant reminder

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (31:22)
Hmm.

Shawna Gann (31:29)
Yeah.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (31:38)
That's so confusing.

Yeah, I also went to a Catholic school, but we were raised Baptist. So like during they had communion during school hours and my brother and I couldn't partake of it because we weren't baptized Catholic. And so we were just like, why don't we get to Jesus Cookie? Like, we got to sit in the back of the church. And I'm like seven years old, like not understanding. And so.

Shawna Gann (31:56)
Jesus cookie girl these terms you come up with I want the Jesus cookie

Urmi (31:58)
Okay, great.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (32:05)
You know, especially as a child, your brain doesn't you just you just feel left out because you want to do the things. So going to a Catholic school, being raised Southern Baptist and then all the racialized stuff we've talked about before. Like, I'm surprised my brain is not oatmeal by this point with all of these things growing up.

Urmi (32:24)
funny.

Shawna Gann (32:25)
That's funny.

I went to a Catholic school for like half of a year only. And there were probably like, I think like seven other kids that weren't Catholic. And so when they had mass, we went into this like trailer outside. And it was really cool because whoever the teacher was, like she was so dope. I don't know. She like let us do whatever. We did like lip syncs and stuff. You know, all the other kids, you know, learning how to genuflect. And we were in their like.

doing what we were, you know, it was probably not what was supposed to do. But that was what we did during Mass.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (32:56)
that sounds fun. Now we sat in the back pew. We sat in the back pew and watched

Urmi (32:57)
You

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (33:02)
everybody else get their little juice and stuff. And we were just like kicking our little feet. Back pew.

Shawna Gann (33:08)
they did let us not, like they didn't make us go at all. But here's what's interesting is when I taught in Germany, the public schools have religion class. So there was like the,

Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, I think. Those were the options. Or if none of those applied, you could go to the non-declaration class. And so I just thought that was such an interesting experience as a teacher, because the kids all recognized that they

would follow one or none of these and go about life and then come back. And what was the most important was fussbol or soccer anyway. So like that was really the religion I think based on the intensity of those soccer games during recess. But no, it was so interesting to see like it wasn't a big deal. Even though like on Sunday.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (34:03)
Hmm.

Shawna Gann (34:05)
there was only one grocery store in the city open and you had to read the newspaper to find out which one it would be because it rotated. And if it opened, it didn't open until like 1 p.m. So like the lines were so long. Everything was closed. Like coming back to the U.S. when we're like, my God, we could shop on Sunday. can like there's all these things that we couldn't do for years living there that you sort of forget about it.

Urmi (34:30)
but

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (34:30)
Meanwhile, I'll be over here mad because I can't go to the Chick-fil-A on Sunday.

Shawna Gann (34:34)
See, and there's that, or Hobby Lobby.

Urmi (34:36)
I also, had that option for the religion class which was...

like you're more than welcome not to attend it. And I was told by my parents that I was not allowed to attend it. But then I was a little bit rebellious of what I did. I still attended the class and I stayed there during the whole lesson. And it was such a nice class because it wasn't just about religion. It was about philosophy. was about life. So it was very like, like the teacher always had this interesting talk, provoking conversation with always, and that always encouraged me to stay.

I was always staying during those classes. I didn't care too much about the actual religion part. At the end of the day, yes, you have the option to opt out from the class, but then it was not even about religion. And then...

The other thing to point out was she just said about, you know, things being open in the States on Sunday. That was my culture shock when I moved to Canada from Italy because I was like, my gosh, things are actually open on Sunday. Like how is it possible? So I had a similar experience because in Italy everything is typically closed on a Sunday. But now I think some shopping malls are open. But I remember when I came to Canada, I was like, are they not taking time off on the weekends?

What's going on?

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (35:59)
No, I think that's such like, I wonder a romanticized ideal. what if everybody could rest, right? Like could have a day to rest. And then the selfish part of us is like, but what if I need eggs or a hammer or whatever? How can I not get that? And other cultures seem to do it fine. It may be a slight inconvenience, but when you talk about people being able to actually rest and have a day off.

how beneficial that could be for a society.

Urmi (36:32)
Yeah. Yeah. And then I remember thinking this about Canada, is such a workaholic place. Like really.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (36:42)
Yeah, I wonder if they're taking their cues from the United States because like I think the only time things close here is Christmas Day. But everything is closed.

Urmi (36:52)
Yes.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (36:55)
I remember pre-COVID when Walmart was like 24 hours. I don't know that all of them have gone back to it, but why in the world does this store need to be open at 2 a.m.? Like the only thing happening are people coming from the club or, you know, foolishness and shenanigans at 2 a.m. Like let them people go to sleep. It is really not that serious.

Urmi (37:04)
Yeah.

you

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (37:15)
Like, is it inconvenient? Yeah. But let people relax and rest like we don't have that in these in the states. We don't unless you have a certain class. Right. But like there are some people that work seven days a week. And I just

Shawna Gann (37:25)
Yeah.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (37:30)
I don't think we're good to people when we force them to labor all of the time.

Shawna Gann (37:36)
Although I think regionally in the US that experience is there. So like if you go to the south or if you go some places in the Midwest, people still tend to open on time or whatever for stores and whatnot. I think the culture, the regional culture shifts.

Could you imagine in New York if you were like, yeah, the store is closed in the middle of the day until every time people will be like losing their minds, right? the pace is just faster.

And so if you take that pace and try to put it in like a Midwestern town, are you kidding me?

They'd be like, you need to chill. I don't know. Yeah, right. So I don't think it's just a US thing, because I think regionally there are those slower spots. But definitely not as slow as in Italia. anyway.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (38:11)
Yeah. Calm down.

Urmi (38:27)
Yeah, definitely, yes.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (38:28)
Hmm.

Shawna Gann (38:34)
You know, as you were talking about your identity journey, you said you had feelings of loneliness,

Can you tell us a little bit about that? Why a sense of loneliness or what was going on at that point of your identity journey?

Urmi (38:49)
Yeah, my sense of loneliness, it was more related to the fact that I was not like fitting a box. Like It was not normal that someone who has multiple ethnicities not able to find a place for herself in the world. So I felt like this was a journey that I was doing alone because back in the days I did not meet many kids like me. I did not meet a lot of third culture kids.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (39:13)
Yeah.

Urmi (39:15)
I was pretty much the only kid that looked non-Italian and so I always felt like I was a little bit misplaced You know like I was there but I feel I felt like I was not supposed to be there and so in that sense I felt like a little bit of like loneliness but then I feel like when I came to Canada I was able to find my place and I want to go back to Italy I know that that's my place as well. So I feel like I had to get lost

to go back to my initial place basically.

Shawna Gann (39:40)
Mm. Mm.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (39:44)
I love that.

Shawna Gann (39:46)
Yeah, "I had to get lost."

I wanted to ask about that because one of the main things that I talk about with this show is the importance of feeling like you belong. And I think so many ways we are categorized or whatever based on how we look, sound, whatever. So...

there are times when it can feel next to impossible to feel a true sense of belonging. But for me anyway, Rachel, you feel free to share your story. But for me, I have always found my sense of belonging in the most unlikely of places. Like because there are rarely people that are like me, so to speak. I find other sort of misfits. There's a Christmas cartoon.

Urmi (40:24)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (40:30)
you

Yeah.

Shawna Gann (40:44)
I think it's Rudolph, it's not really a cartoon, like this old claymation thing from like the 50s that they play still every year, which is awesome. And there's this little part of it that's about the island of misfit toys. And it's all these toys that live on this island because they're not like the regular toys. There's something different about them. So they find community within each other. And that's how I feel. like, I always find my island, my island of misfits. And it's not meant to be a negative thing. We're just different than...

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (41:05)
Mm-hmm.

Shawna Gann (41:14)
what people consider the norm. I almost said different than the norm, but it's really different than what people consider to be the norm. And so, yeah, I curious about that

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (41:19)
Yeah.

I identify with that as well. You know, in high school, we had a misfit crew. So it was like all the odds and ends that kind of like didn't fit in these other spaces. And so it was interesting when you'd see us all together. I had a friend that was like in his goth era and I was in my my saved Christian girl era, which is an episode for another day.

And then I had a friend that was like, you know, your very stereotypical girly girl. And then a friend that was on the step squad and like, it were all just these mismatched pieces that fit together. And I think I still identify that way just because the way I show up isn't like a very stereotypical quote unquote woman. Like I'm in my 40s, my elder millennial self. And, you know, I'm wearing a Hello Kitty t-shirt and I have tattoos and I like I do.

things that are not in alignment with what people expect of that. And so when you try to find community and you have these people that are sometimes living in these very socially defined ways, and then you don't fit into that, you have to find the people that kind of like feel like home for you. So I definitely align with that sort of like misfit ideology.

Shawna Gann (42:32)
I dig that.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (42:33)
I wish we embraced that more often.

Shawna Gann (42:37)
Urmi, it has been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you for sharing your story. Tell folks where they can find you and where they can find your book. What's it called? Where is it at? Give us the deets.

Urmi (42:46)
Yes, so my book is available on Amazon. It's called Discovering Your Identity Rebirth from Interracial Struggle. And then if people want to connect with me, I have my YouTube channel called Urmi Hossain I have my LinkedIn page called Urmi Hossain. And there are the two organizations that you mentioned during the introduction, Women in Leadership Organization. It's also another way to connect with me and then found.

influence.

Shawna Gann (43:17)
All right, y'all, go find Urmi and get her book. Get her book. So thanks again. This was so good. I hope that we get to talk again soon. Rachel, anything from you before we close?

Urmi (43:18)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Sadler (she/her) (43:31)
Y'all protect your backs, do your yoga, your stretches, all the things they tell you to do, because it really is a struggle over here. Outside of that, you know, drink water and mind your business.

Urmi (43:34)
you

Shawna Gann (43:42)
Don't let the mums get you. All right. Peace, y'all. Have a good one. Thanks again.