Ornamental No More: Dr. Kalya Castillo on Identity, Hypervisibility, and Healing

In this powerful conversation, Dr. Kalya Castillo—a Black and Japanese psychologist and trauma-informed therapist—joins Shawna to explore identity, racial ambiguity, and the lived experiences of multiracial individuals. Together, they unpack what it means to grow up without cultural mirrors, the coded messages around hair and professionalism, and how mixed-race identity can shape the way we’re seen, valued, and understood.

Kalya shares insights from her research on the hypersexualization of Black and Asian women, and how these dynamics often show up in the workplace and therapeutic settings. She also offers a deeply personal reflection on motherhood, internalized bias, and the work of helping others navigate the in-between spaces of identity with compassion and clarity.

Stuff to check out from mentions in the episode:

• "How Are You?" A Question of Depth and Trust
• The Tahitian woman behind Paul Gauguin's paintings
• SheaMoisture - Break The Walls
• The Pain We Carry by Natalie Y. Gutiérrez
• What Is Trauma-Informed Therapy?
• Whites Distrust Biracial People When Their Racial Presentation Varies
• You're called a 'model minority' as an Asian American — until they decide you aren't

If this is your first time with OTC, check out EPISODE 1: START HERE for more background on the show. Continue the conversation on Instagram and find Season 5 episodes on YouTube.

Our True Colors is powered by True Culture Coaching & Consulting. Head to our website to find out how True Culture Coaching and Consulting can support you and your organization, and subscribe to our LinkedIn Newsletter, The Culture Clinic, for more great content. You can find us at truecultureconsulting.com where you can also contact us to schedule a free consultation.

Transcript

Unknown Speaker  0:00  
Music.

Intro  0:06  
Welcome to our true colors, hosted by Shawna Gan. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial riddle, an ethnic enigma and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.

Shawna  0:22  
Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of our true colors. As always, I am really glad you're here. How are you all doing out there? It's, uh, you know, it's kind of turbulent these days. As a matter of fact, I've been doing lots of reflection. You know, with this being the fifth season of the show, started in 2019 and in 2020 we were going through it, y'all, I was literally recording the show from my closet as we were, you know, shut in avoiding getting the Coronavirus. COVID 19 was a trip. But then there were other things happening that year too, that just really had a lot of us on edge. I don't have to go through it with you. You You know what it was, you know what it's been and it wasn't easy. It hasn't been easy, and it's still not easy. So before we dive into the content today, I just, you know, want to throw some feelers up. Ask everybody, how are you doing? Don't forget, you can write to me. There's a link in the show notes that allows you to send me direct messages. Please do, because I think it's important that when we are living through turbulent times, when things feel a little bit unstable, we're not really sure what's going on, what's up, what's down. I think it's important that we check in with each other. As a matter of fact, I wrote an article that you should check out if you haven't, by the way, if you haven't already, you should subscribe to the culture clinic. It's a newsletter that I publish on LinkedIn. And also, if you go to my website, trueculture consulting.com, and go to Resources, you can find the articles there too. But I wrote this article about the question, how are you or how are you doing? You know, as people do check in with each other, I just want to make sure that when you do ask somebody that, especially during these turbulent times, that you're mindful of what you're asking. You're asking for vulnerability. Sometimes they give you a straight answer, and sometimes they don't. I just want us to check in with each other, because there's a lot going on that said, let's go on ahead and start talking about today's episode. The conversation that I'm going to share with you today is one that really sits right at the heart of why this show exists. I'm joined by Dr Kalia Castillo, a licensed counseling psychologist, researcher and a fellow explorer of multiracial identity. She's black and Japanese. She's a mom, a clinician and someone who's taken her own questions about identity and turned them into meaningful research and healing work. In this episode, we talk about what it means to grow up racially ambiguous and all the layers that come with that. Right there's the impact of hyper sexualization and micro aggressions and the ongoing journey of understanding who we are in a world that's always trying to define us. You know, let's be real. We try to define ourselves too. I music, whether you're a person that identifies as being mixed, biracial or multiracial, or you work with someone or you love someone who does this episode offers so many powerful moments of reflection and connection, I super. Invite you to stick around, check it out and share it with somebody else. Pass this stuff along. These discussions are so important now more than ever, so let's get into it.

Shawna  3:37  
I'm so very happy today to welcome our guest, Kalia Castillo, who is here to talk about what identity is like when you're a person who is racially ambiguous or mixed race and navigating these spaces is somebody that's a little bit different than what folks categorize us or try to categorize us to be. Kalia is a licensed counseling psychologist and a researcher based in New York, and she dedicates herself to supporting biracial and multiracial identity development, especially in black Asian communities. Kalia has a private practice in Manhattan, and she teaches at CUNY, the City University of New York, and works as a university clinician. She helps clients explore how past experiences shape who they are today, while also providing practical tools to manage current challenges. Kalia lives in New York with her husband and her two children, and she's here today to share her insights and her expertise with us. Kalia, I'm so very happy that you are here. Thank you so much for sharing your time. Really appreciate this. Thank

Speaker 1  4:35  
you so much, Shawna, for having me. It's an honor to be here with you. Thank you so much.

Shawna  4:39  
The pleasure is mine and and I'm very much looking forward to this conversation, especially because the population of people who are mixed race, multiracial, number one, they identify in very many different ways. But also, this population is growing. I keep trying to get that news out there to folks like literally the fastest growing racial demographic. In the US, and that's for a couple of reasons. One could be just the sheer number of people has increased and the larger generations that are the younger generations, specifically thinking about workforce age group and these cohorts include millennials and Gen Z, but also because we haven't always been able to express how we identify on forms and like in the census and things, it just the system wasn't set up for that. And once we were able to say, Hey, I identify with this and this, please don't force me into a box, we see that number growing. So I think part of it has to do with folks who have always been there, just haven't really had the way to express that. And secondly, truly, the population is just growing, so I think having folks like you on the show really can help as we continue to unpack this identity, and I say this identity full well, knowing and acknowledging that there's no one way to be biracial or multiracial before we dig into all that stuff and the nitty gritty, I just wanted to ask you about yourself, so that listeners kind of know where you're coming from and what led you down the path where you're helping others. Can you share a little bit about your own identity and how that has contributed to your work that you do today?

Speaker 1  6:18  
Absolutely. I mean, I'm still figuring out those terms, to be honest, as an adult, but I am black, Asian or black Japanese. And you know, every time I think about this question honestly, I feel like that response kind of changes in terms of what my journey has been, and I discover new things about all the milestones and factors that have come along. But yeah, I grew up in New York City. I grew up in the Riverdale area with the Bronx, with a single mom. She's from Japan, and it was her curiosity and her courage and love for music that brought her to the US in her late 20s, early 30s, she was a big hippie.

Shawna  7:01  
That's so fun. Yeah,

Speaker 1  7:02  
yeah. She first went to LA, went back, then came to New York and settled down and had me. She and my father did not stay together for long, and so she raised me on my own, or on her own. I'm sorry. And you know, in terms of my journey as I think about it, I feel like early on, my concept of identity was really built upon what people were telling me and what I saw in magazines, what I saw in the media, and even, you know, I did not know any other black Asian folks for a long time. Later on, we had a couple family friends that were also black Asian. But other than that, there wasn't necessarily a community that I grew up with that looked like me or had a similar background. So my those messages really came from my mom, and, you know, she spoke Japanese to me in our home. But again, there also weren't huge a Japanese community where I grew up, either. And Riverdale did not have a huge black community at that time. It's very diverse now, but that was not the case, you know, 30 years ago or so, yeah. And so I remember just feeling alone and different. You know, for a while I looked like the same shade as maybe some peers that were Latina or Latino, but I didn't have the same background. And so when people would ask me what my ethnic background was, it always brought a curious response, or, Oh, that's weird, that's different, or that's unique, and felt like something I carried with me, but just felt very distanced also, yeah, I knew that it would prompt and people would be interested in it, and so I kind of almost leaned into that and used it a bit, but I felt very disconnected. You know, I knew, I knew it was a point of curiosity for other people. That changed also as I puberty, and my relationship to my identity was also interesting at that point too. I remember I was an art student at LaGuardia High School in New York City, which it's for art and performing arts students, and I often would go to Museum, and I remember someone coming up to me and saying, Wow, you look like a Gauguin painting. And if you know a bit about Gauguin, you know, he was,

Shawna  9:05  
excuse me,

Speaker 1  9:08  
muses were tahit and women with, you know, their their breasts out and displayed. And thought, oh, okay, these messages were different, unique, exotic, and again, like, still very much kind of disconnected from something that I felt was coming from me. And so honestly, even, like, I think maybe into, well, definitely into my graduate program, I had this conversation with my advisor, and we had to do a competency project, you know, as you know, like you're constantly evaluated and tested. And my thought was to do a project on first gen college students, which is a very big passion of mine, and I'm a first gen college student. My mom, you know, didn't get a chance to finish her her degree. And my advisor was like, how about your identity? About being black, Asian, and what do. Think of that. And I thought, there's no research on this, and nobody would be interested in this. And it made me think, like I was just so dismissive of my identity, and just thought, you know, it just didn't take up space, because I didn't see it take up any space in school or with other people outside of just being kind of ornamental. And some part of me that kind of clicked and thought, you know, was interesting. And so that's sort of like, started this process, and I feel like that's when it started to become mine. I gained more ownership over it through research, which is interesting, because I hated research up until that point, and I thought, like, and a lot of it was really because I didn't see myself in it, and I couldn't relate to it, and even like the process of research. And, you know, I practice qualitative research, and I feel like I could hear people's voices, and even like the work that I did with participants, it just felt like just something I could relate to and connect with, and added an entirely different dynamic to what I originally perceived, you know, and I'm still navigating it. You know, who I am, what that means. And, you know, I started my program at like, what was I 3536 years old, you know, so I was way into adulthood, and a mom already, and had a family. And so that's when I felt like, Okay, this is something that's mine, you know, and I can start to use the labels and words and, you know, vocabulary around creating this for myself, and not necessarily from the lens of other people.

Shawna  11:25  
It's so interesting. You know, when I talk to different guests, there are always going to be unique experiences, because we're, you know, that's just the nature of being a person, that we all are having something unique, especially in the space where, as I mentioned just a few minutes ago, like there's no one way to be multiracial, biracial, mixed race. However, there are these common threads that we see. And just for listeners to know, Collie and I have spoken, you know, a couple of times, and we've talked about each other's research. And just as you said, this isn't something that's been brought up or there hadn't been space for this. It's exactly why I chose to research the experiences of mixed race employees, because there are lots of papers and books out there other resources for people who are mixed race, but it's usually from an anthropological or sociological aspect, not about what this means at work, a place where no matter what your race is, we all tend to shape ourselves a certain way for like, whatever our work mask is, our work persona, and hopefully there are lots of people out there that don't feel the need to do that, but especially if you're a person that comes from a marginalized community, whether that means race or ability or any other sort of aspect of your identity that isn't mainstream. We usually tend to cover a few things, change a few things, and try to fit into some I guess, mold, and I usually liken it to being this expectation of professionalism that's always seen through a Western or a white lens, right? Whatever that means to you. That could be language, that could be how you wear your hair, that could mean the food you bring to eat for lunch, right? So, you know, I found what you described to be familiar and also validating. You're like, I'm learning who I am still, I say that's completely fair, too. It's a journey. I'm not sure that there is an end to this journey. It's ongoing, because I think it falls right into what we've learned about social identity theory. We do learn about who we are also through the lenses of other people, like what they reflect to us. We learn how they see us, and it takes a while for us to see ourselves, even apart from that. So I think that's all very fair. Anyway. The long and short of it is, I think that it's also very important for others to know and hear experiences from people where their upbringing plays a part in that and the curiosity that people have. But in your case, you even mentioned a little bit of fetishizing, which is something that people have also described when it comes to being exotic. And don't you think it can be confusing, especially as a woman, to think like, oh, I'm supposed to be beautiful in this way, or I'm supposed to be whatever, but then also be like, really, that's how you see me? Like, yeah, I don't know. I

Speaker 1  14:20  
think it's very confusing. And I think even, like when I received that comment, and that was just something that was very overt, there are lots of other comments that I have received over my entire life that weren't as so in my face, you know? And this I was a teenager too, and kind of coming, yeah, that's no and then I was still discovering what that would be. And so to get attention because of how, I guess, exotic, you know, I was perceived to be at that at that time, there's something and also leaning into it, I think, for a lot of mixed race folk, that comes with trying. To, you know, establish some visibility, get a sense of feeling like, Okay, this is a privilege that I hold, and for me, at least, it was very misguided, and that's something that I'm learning to unpack, you know, as well. But, yeah, it's very confusing. I think we're that we should be appreciative of these kind of comments and that it's something that makes us special. You know, even with my participants, that was for so for my dissertation, I focused on experiences of hyper sexualization among black, Asian women. And that was something that came up quite often, that experience of being fetishized in some way, being exoticized, fetishized, sexualized, and for being biracial and mixed race, but also the identities sort of connected with that too, being black, being Asian, and all those stereotypes were tied into being hyper sexualized. So I think we're often encouraged to to play out these parts in a performative way too, or how we present ourselves. And so yeah, at like, what was I 1617, years old? That made me feel really different. And I'm like, Oh, I'm like, a painting and oh, like, I'm worthy of being looked at because of, you know, how different and unique I seem. So yeah, and that's something that many people mixed race folk experience, men and women. So yeah,

Shawna  16:32  
I would say, you know, that idea for me of being worthy of being looked at, oh man, that messes with my head too, because, you know, when I was growing up, my school was mostly white. I i went to school in a mostly white community, but I did not live in a mostly white community, and so I would like leave my home, which was a predominantly black, you know, neighborhood where I'm gonna be honest, I didn't really fit in there, either, just because colorism exists. And there was always this. I was always being told what I was thinking or how I felt. As a light skin person, you think you're this, you you know, or you're trying to be this, or why you talk white, or anything to challenge my blackness, and then to go to a predominantly white school, a Christian school, no less, where there was a lot of racism there. And it's really funny that I didn't see it as much until I look back quick, quick, quick story. Yeah, I have a pen pal. She and I have been pen pals for almost 40 years. Oh, wow. We were accidental pen pals. I was studying Spanish, and somehow I got a German speaking pen pal, and it was like, Oops. I did eventually get connected with this guy, Oscar from Chile. I'll never forget that. And Oscar and I think we exchanged like, two letters. But my my other friend, she and I are friends to this day. She lives in Austria, and funny, I now speak German too, so we have that connection. But when I was in middle school or high school or something like that, I decided to make her a video of my day to day life at my school, because I had like a little eight millimeter camera back in day. Yeah, maybe like five or six years ago, I found them. I got to re watch these things, and I was listening to the comments being made to the things teachers said students said. Because, literally, I walked around with this camera all day long. I probably did it for, like, over the course of two or three days, and that little, tiny sample set of my day as a middle schooler or high schooler, I don't know exactly what grade I was in, oh my gosh, that was eliminating and these are things that I probably internalized, but didn't realize were coming out of me as an adult decades later. And to go back and watch that was so eye opening, and you mentioned this thing, this you used a word as you're describing your experience with your identity development that really stood out to me, because I've never heard it before. You said ornamental. I think I've said accessory before, but truly ornamental, this exoticizing, but also a thing to look at, but also a thing that could be put away. So maybe you're in the spotlight for a moment, and then, okay, enough of that, and away you go. Because ornaments don't need to have a voice. Ornaments don't need to do anything except be ornamental. And I know that might not be what you meant as you're sharing that, but that is what I was thinking about, that that's what came up for me.

Speaker 1  19:32  
Yeah, I think that's what's come up for me, and that's what it feels like, you know, and it's always through the view or perspective of the other, and it's very disempowering, and it, it's something that I have felt my whole life, but couldn't necessarily put a label on it, sure, and even as I talk about it, you know, it's I know that there are people out there that would challenge it and challenge what I'm saying about. Myself, which is also very sad, you know, like, even, I know this is kind of like a different topic, but what was it when, when Trump talked about Kamala choosing when to be black and when not to be black? And, you know, it's kind of like a similar, you know, sentiment, like, so it implies that that's not that she can't have ownership over, you know, how she chooses to identify one and two, that somebody else can sort of supposed to dictate that. And so that's what it's always felt like, I think, to me, and I think you captured it perfectly. Oh,

Shawna  20:35  
well, there's actual studies about this. I think JD Vance, in the same vein of what you're discussing, referred to her as a chameleon, and sometimes, you know, when you talk about leaning into your identity, being a chameleon of sorts can be a superpower when you're trying to bring people together, or when you are trying to connect with folks. You could put people at ease when they see a little bit of themselves in you, but then you're with a different group, and maybe they see a little bit of themselves in you. There's power in that, but there is healthy advantage in that. Yet the dichotomy is that there's also studies that show how when a person can't figure you out, they have a lack of trust. It's it makes them feel like I don't know this, so I don't trust this. Ergo, I don't trust you. So this idea of being a chameleon can be this double edged sword where it can be a really great advantage and be a superpower and something that can be useful not only to the person, but to the people they're connecting with. And if you're a person working at an organization, you could benefit the organization by connecting with various stakeholders. So it's like, Man, can I win? How can I win? I also write about this idea of a paradox of privilege. I think many of us know there is privilege in being different. There's also the risk of being othered when you're different, there's the idea, especially if you're a person who does hold some white identity, or you have proximity to whiteness, you might have that sort of privilege, but then there's the dissonance of, but I'm also still a person of color, I'm also still someone from marginalized communities. So is it okay if I talk about my experiences, because it's not as bad as and then fill in the blank of another oppressed community, or can I lean into my fill in the blank identity? Because I don't know if I'm enough of this or enough of that. So it's this weird paradox

Speaker 1  22:32  
it is, and a lot of it also can depend on what you look like, and is presentational in terms of how, so, you know, in my case, being black, Japanese, I remember early on, my mother had made a comment to me, or not, not just she's told me this many times growing up, but like she was very concerned about my skin color, and she said to me, on This country, there is a lot of people who play experience discrimination if you are darker than a paper bag, you know? And, yeah, that's historical, right? And that's something that she had learned and had been taught about by my family, my my father's family, when she was still connected to him. And, you know, that's something that she made me aware of. So your proximity to that is also very critical, and even like in the context of black Asian folk, but Asians having model minority status, and what that you know means, and your proximity to that piece and what it means for black Asian individuals, you know, looking more Asian, fitting into Asian stereotypes, and that being really promoted or encouraged by mainstream society that weighs heavily on on everyone, but, yeah, those are really important points that you're bringing up, even like speaking to like what you were saying before the chameleon comment, like, that's like sitting with me and, you know, it's been a, I mean, right now as an adult, I think I've seen it as privileges. But I think when you are growing up, having to, almost in a hyper vigilant way, be aware of how you fit in an environment, social cues, way that you speak, the way that you present yourself in different environments. Like yes, it is a superpower, and I think we, you know, I use it, but it is also very distressing too to be so constantly aware of these factors. But it's also necessary. It's a part of survival, and it's something that also allows, I think, mixed race folk to be able to understand cultural differences and nuances, translate them. And yeah, in that respect, I think in organizational settings, that is an absolute superpower. I think then the question is, you know, whether that individual wants to use it, or whether they're tasked with using it, or if there's that expectation, and that's like a gray area that I don't I'm not sure how to navigate yet, entirely too, but I imagine that comes up as a question. Question for many people,

Shawna  25:01  
yeah, that's a very good point. I hadn't thought about it, but I have had conversations with folks where they felt tokenized in general, and serve as the quote I'm doing. Air quotes y'all like the the DEI rep for whatever thing it needs to be represent. They need to be representative of some like that, and some don't. And I guess that gets right back to it as there is no one experience. Some people lean in and some people don't, and that hyper vigilance is absolutely a characteristic experience, one of those common threads where you're always like who's like me, who's not like me? How do they see me? And even a person like me, I identify as a black woman, but I know that I have mixed racial heritage, and I know that I'm very confusing to people, and I have my whole little elevator speech that I give when I'm asked about it. If I feel like it, that is true. It's I don't always feel up to it, you know, but that hyper vigilance is exhausting. It's very time you don't ever get to be off. Yeah, and so I feel you there.

Shawna  26:20  
Kalia, I wanted to ask you a little bit we talked about your experiences and what you've learned from your mother, but I was wondering about you as a mother, is it okay if I ask you a little bit about

Speaker 1  26:29  
that? Yeah, sure, I'm still figuring out motherhood, but yeah, I hope I can give an articulate response. I mean,

Shawna  26:35  
I think that's fair. If you were like, bet, Shawna, I got I got motherhood down. I got mixedness down. I understand that I'd be like, you know, well, let's pull back a little bit. I think it's fair that we're all still figuring out life. But just from your own experiences, I wonder how being a mother, or motherhood in general, has impacted the way that you perceive your identity, or mixed race identity in general, even if it's not just your own.

Speaker 1  27:06  
Yeah. So I'm raising two kids, 115 year old, one soon to be five year old, with their father, my husband, who is Dominican American. And so our kids are everything under the sun, which is wonderful, and it's something that we celebrate. I think, you know, my husband and I have spoken quite explicitly about the kind of things that we want to talk about, and in terms of also, like fully engaging in, like, what it is to racially socialize our kids and, you know, and that means like, race talk in the household, and talking about who they are and encouraging them to ask questions and also develop a vocabulary around their identity that feels salient to them. And, you know, as a mother, that's something that I wanted to offer, particularly, you know, in the context of what I've been offered by my mom, and I'll say, you know, in the absence of my father too. You know, there's a lot about being black that I don't know that have come in bits and pieces. And so my kids are fortunate to be able to engage in that dialog with us because they are black, and what it means to be black as a Dominican American, what it means to be black as a black Japanese person, and how that sort of exists within them. You know, we openly, I think, talk about those things. I think also somewhat related. For me, hair comes up familiar. It's so funny because I remember one of my first clinical externship sites, talking with someone about hair in preparation for interviews, I used to straighten my hair quite often, like, obsessively, because I felt like I will only look presentable if I have my hair like this. And this person was white, and thought I was talking about something very superficial, and I realized, wow, you have no idea where I'm coming from. Like, hair is big for me, because I have so many internalized issues in terms of, like, the self talk that I've had around my hair, you know, looking presentable, looking essentially white,

Shawna  29:14  
what is considered professional like when you talk about interviews and things, right?

Speaker 1  29:18  
And so I'm really, I attempt to be careful about how I speak about hair with my kids, you know, and further perpetuating things that they are probably hearing from the outside community or by the media and and they are, you know, also like existing in a world that's very different from when I was a kid. You know. It's not obviously, but it's very different, and thank goodness for that. But yeah, I'm really careful about unpacking my own internalized racism, and I try to talk about it with my colleagues. I try to talk about my husband before I speak to my kids directly about that. And so that's something I'm still working I'm not. Perfect, I know, like I'm giving my kids something to talk about when they get older, you know, but, um, it's something I attempt to do in order to give to them and really kind of address that baggage that I'm holding about how I see myself. So hair comes up for me quite often.

Shawna  30:15  
I can so appreciate that just hearing you talk about your intentionality with what you say around your children regarding hair is so admirable, because I'm certain that I've probably said some disparaging things, because it took me until I was well into my 40s before I'd even go out of the house with my hair in its natural curly state, the chemicals, the straighteners, the heat like, all the things to try to beat it into submission, flat iron, blow dryers, then all the products that are necessary. You know, even when I was young, like as a student, as a child, you know, God, please don't let it rain, because if I'm at the bus stop, and it finally I got, you know, my hair would be like, nice. Whatever nice was, any hint of humidity or rain would just not only frizz up my hair and make it, you know, so I'm especially conscious then. But then there was the smell of the products I always joke about with. We had this one product called luster silk. Y'all shout out if you know, luster silk, pink hair lotion. Lord, it had a certain sense to it, and I probably wouldn't have cared about it, except, remember, I went to a predominantly white school then, and people would be like, what is that? Or, you know, the white girls would show up and they'd like, you know, like, toss their hair around, and it was the nice floral sense of whatever. And even to this day, I go into stores and I basically do an assessment as to where they keep products for people who have hair texture like mine and what they call it. And I'm so very proud. I actually got one store to change their merchandising because they had the end cap literally said, like, ethnic hair. And then it was like, in the same aisle as like, products for incontinence and stuff. And then they had another aisle that they called premium hair care. And it was things like, I'm just gonna say, the hair products that most people with non coarse or textured hair would use. And I went to the management I was like, Look, I'm normally not the, let me talk to your manager type, but today I got time, and we got to talk about this. And she's like, well, that's just, you know, how we get it from headquarters. And I was like, All right, who do I need to write to? And I took photos, and I sent it, and they changed it. I was so happy because I was like, thank you for hearing because again, othering, I have hair too. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, just so

Speaker 1  32:50  
into the corner, and that's, that's just so symbolic.

Shawna  32:55  
I just don't understand why it has to be set apart anyway. And are you familiar with shea beauty, the company, they had a whole campaign about it, like, break down the wall, basically, like, Why can't? Why are you segregating us? I didn't know segregation. Like, through hair, boot camp products,

Speaker 1  33:15  
yeah, not normalized, which has huge impacts. I mean, it's like the subtle things that you know. Again, we are hyper vigilantly, you know. But otherwise, if you fit into the other camp, and your products are more normalized, and you are seen as more normal, that's right, you don't notice those things. But thank you for doing that. And I feel like I'm about to do my own campaign. We've noticed it, and I've been kind of like irritated by it, but I haven't been able to do that extra step that's so important. You

Shawna  34:03  
I can we switch gears a little bit. I really want to understand a bit more about your work, and I think this is so important, because I got to tell you, as a person who has had therapists, it's very, very difficult to find somebody who gets it, and while there's never like the exact fit, whether it has to do with if a person can relate to you or you can relate to that therapist, man, to find somebody who gets it, I think, is like the hugest step ever to start with, before even getting into whatever it is that I want to discuss with a therapist, and so knowing that you really focus on helping people who are biracial or multiracial, to me, is a huge thing. I just wondered, both from your research, but also from your practice, have you found anything like tools or techniques that are really very helpful for your clients that are navigating their own. Identity and how they move throughout the world as they see it, but also knowing how they're seen. Yeah,

Speaker 1  35:08  
there. I love this book called the pain we carry, and maybe quoting it incorrectly, but by Natalie Gutierrez, and it is trauma informed, and focuses heavily on identity in terms of intergenerational trauma that's passed down. And, you know, while this, while she doesn't necessarily focus specifically on biracial, multiracial identity or mixed race identity, it's open enough to really be very inclusive. And that's something that has connected well with me, and, you know, I've worked with mixed race folk, but I don't have a huge caseload in that area necessarily, which I'm hoping to grow. I think also a lot of people don't necessarily, I mean, it's changing now, but I think a lot of people don't necessarily look for therapy specifically to address those issues initially, but it comes out later on, and then that's where I come in. And, you know, attempt to really be curious about that lens. And, yeah, I don't know. I mean, that's a tool for me that's been very helpful. I think my experiences themselves, you know, themselves, even even though I haven't had yet a black Asian client. I've had plenty of, you know, other mixed race individuals come and talk about that sort of complex existence of like, you know, acclimating, adjusting to different communities, and being able to sort of code switch, and some of like, the distressing factors that come with, you know, having to exist in a world from a stressful standpoint, you know. So I've had a few people kind of navigate that with me in therapy. But yeah, I mean, in terms of a tool, that's what comes to mind first, yeah, sure.

Shawna  36:55  
I think it's an advantage that you you have, even though you haven't had a client that, I guess, shares that much of your identity in the way that you describe, you know as being Black and Asian, but just being able to know what it's basically like. And also, I wrote down the book, I'm going to include that in the show notes for listeners so they can check that out themselves. I did want to ask you, because when you described the book first, you said something about it being trauma informed. Can you explain what that means for folks who maybe haven't heard that term before? Yeah,

Speaker 1  37:27  
so I'm a trauma informed therapist, and so what that means is that you have an awareness of the impact of trauma on your everyday life. And so that might include, for example, instances of sexual assault, molestation, abuse, events in your life that might have been you know, either ongoing or you know, singular events that occurred in your life that have an impact on your functioning in some way, and also self concept. And so a trauma informed therapist would be aware of some of those factors and how they integrate into you know why you're coming to therapy in the first place. You know how it impacts your interpersonal relationships and communication, how it impacts your self talk and how you perceive yourself. And so I think that is critical when working with mixed race folk, because there's a lot of like we just talked about, a lot of mixed race folk don't necessarily have the opportunity to unpack over their lifetime until they are able to self reflect. And it could be through therapy. It could be through other means or other avenues, too. And so even the perception of, okay, this is a traumatic experience can feel like a lot to some people, or they might feel like, Oh, well, you know, it's something this situation is normalized. It's something that everybody deals with. It's not an issue. And so I think being trauma informed in the therapy space allows you to sit with that a bit a little bit longer and be curious about it. And also, you know, bring some opportunity to just unpack that those experiences with you, and see the salience of it in your current life, and your connection to your past as well, and how you want to navigate the future, you know, with with new awareness.

Shawna  39:11  
Would you say, or have you found that sometimes folks don't even know that there has been trauma? I

Speaker 1  39:18  
think it's a very common experience. And you know, for that reason, I will, especially during a clinical intake, explain some examples, or even maybe that will come out later on, you know, inside, like their fifth session, and then I might say, Oh, well, you know this this, I'm curious, like, Does this feel like it fits a definition of what we talked about our first session, because it seems to like, for example, a microaggression that you've experienced over and over again in a work environment, right? It seems to really be impacting your ability to go into work, your ability to function, your ability to to really see yourself as welcomed in this environment. Does this feel like this fits that definition? I. And so I really put it on that person, because another sort of factor to consider with trauma is that if you have the support systems and the tools and the coping mechanisms to manage things that are traumatic, right, you may not necessarily result in having trauma right. So because you've experienced an event doesn't necessarily make it traumatic. Traumatic? I have my own definition, but maybe that's not something that fits with how they perceive their own experiences. So yeah, that's an it's something you navigate together. I think with therapy,

Shawna  40:32  
you mentioned microaggressions as an example. What other things have come up for people, specifically in the workplace that are identity related for multiracial people, I think even from

Speaker 1  40:45  
my more recent research on black Asian individuals, there are many who talked about being hyper sexualized in the workplace. So that means like at work too, yeah, at work, and sometimes violently, and being expected to perform certain tasks, because there is this perception of them being submissive Asian, and maybe aspects of their identity were kind of torn apart and fixated on because of that, or their identity being brought up in A workplace when it wasn't necessarily initiated by them, and it's very it's a very murky area, because we're also talking about women, so power dynamics were really inherent, I think, in the context of what was talked about with my research participants. But yeah, I think oftentimes to the legitimacy of their identity. You know, how black are you? Do you know these attributes, or do you know this music, or how Asian Are you? You know, can you say certain words or tell me this fact? And so, being expected to perform aspects of identity, I think, is something that many mixed race people experience and have become normalized, and sometimes you might be encouraged or then pushed to perform it yourself, because you're so used to it, and this makes you different and offers you a little bit of privilege, you know, and allows you to stick out. And so those are some things my research participants have shed light on and I think for myself too, I've experienced that personally

Shawna  42:25  
as you're talking about it. I was thinking about another hair thing, of course, because that's such an important thing to me, and I will never forget. I was in a meeting where we were debriefing a presentation. There was three of us on the call, and my colleague was speaking about the presentation, my boss interrupted my colleague and said, Can we just stop for a minute? Can we just stop for a minute and talk about Shauna hair today? Oh my goodness. And I was like, Oh my God. And I know why he did that. It was because I had remember earlier I said I took me forever to wear my hair in its natural curly state, right? So I had been wearing it naturally curly. That day was my birthday, and for fun, I straightened my hair like I was intentional about my look that day. It's not like I announced to everybody at work. It was my birthday. It was for me, yeah, yeah. And my colleague was amazing. This happened, and she paused for beat, and then she was like, I think we need to talk about this presentation. So what I was saying was, and she took that spotlight off of me, and when I was like, Thank you, God, because why did he do that? And I'm gonna be honest with you, this was a black man who you think would be familiar, and that's shame on me for assuming that if we come from the same community or have a similar community, that I could expect that to not happen to me. But that's who did that to me. Yeah. And, you know, here I am telling you about it. So this was years ago, but it's still something that impacted me. How who's going to notice if I straight my hair today or not? Yeah,

Speaker 1  44:02  
I'm sorry that happened. And it always puts you on the spot, you know, and in a way, so that you're expected to take a compliment, or take it as a compliment, or, you know, be appreciative of a comment like that. And it catches us off guard. And I think that sums up many of our experiences, you know, in the world agreed,

Shawna  44:23  
and was I supposed to take it as a compliment? Because it really wasn't. It was, can we talk about Shauna hair today? Yeah, yeah, like whatever comes after that. I don't know my I assume because people, you know, place higher value on straight hair or whatever that it was probably but oh, man, anyway, you.

Shawna  45:00  
So Kylie, I'd like to ask you about belonging a little bit. You know, I do a lot of work around workplace culture in general, but I do that through the lens of diversity, equity, inclusion. Bottom line it boils down for me is I want for my clients and their organizations, the people that they serve in their organizations, to feel seen, to feel heard, to feel understood, and ultimately, to feel like they belong. I wondered if you might have had, either from your research or from your practice some sense of how community can play a role in the lives of people who are biracial or multiracial in terms of feeling that sense of belonging, whether that's in work or outside of work.

Speaker 1  45:44  
Yeah, I think that oftentimes, like our first inclination is to, you know, think about activities or interventions that are focused on making other people feel more comfortable or included, you know. But I think that even before all that, a lot of that work should be internal, you know, and so that requires, I think, each of us, myself included, to really look at ourselves and go back into our own history and how we've been socialized, racially socialized, our own identities, and really being curious about Those factors and how they have shaped us, and that, I think, precipitates any kind of like community work, I mean, before even like talking about how to attend to other people, understanding some of the obstacles or barriers that exist within us that don't allow us to foster that connection is critical and key. And I think a lot of therapists are trained to do that. They're supposed to be trained to do that, and it's working on doing but they come out those unequal power dynamic or those factors biases, or those microaggressions, all that comes out if you haven't done that internal work or looked at yourself first. And how about

Shawna  46:59  
for the person who is mixed race or not feeling like they belong. There were times when, I mean, if I'm honest, I feel like, could I have sabotaged a relationship because of my own insecurities? There could have been some relationships that were even stronger or better, but because I was so convinced I didn't belong, that I didn't allow anything to grow. I don't know if that makes sense, but I just imagine that that potentially happens in workplaces too. Like, I think I mentioned earlier, some of my respondents would say, like, Hey, I go to work. I don't socialize with anybody. I just want to do my work and go home because I don't want anyone to ask me questions. I think to myself, like, what are the long term effects of that, if you intentionally don't try to develop community with others?

Speaker 1  47:51  
Yeah, yeah. And that that's hard, you know, even when I say that, some of the things I think about are there a lot of people that have built up a show because they've had negative experiences, and so they have said, this is a boundary here. I'm just not going to interact with these folks because I'm going to get hurt. Which, who can blame some people? You

Shawna  48:10  
know, I know, not kidding. I mean, there's a reason I felt how I felt, and I imagine there's reason people would put up those walls

Speaker 1  48:17  
at work too, yeah. And I think sometimes, even when people attempt to create safe spaces within a work environment, the intentions are probably good. But sometimes, you know, when you think about being vulnerable in such a space, in that leader or that person who has initiated that effort hasn't done unpacked their own identity and how that may take, you know, interfere with the safety, or, yeah, the safety of people participating in groups like that. It can be really counterintuitive, you know. And so sometimes you see these superficial safe spaces created, and it feels like a duty, like affinity, certain affinity groups, you know, it feels like a duty to take part in some of these experiences, but not authentically safe or not authentically inviting. And so I think yes, there are definitely some opportunities to create those kind of, you know, interventions or spaces for folks, but to authentically do so is hard, you know, it takes, it takes a lot of internal work, I think, also checking in with people one on one is, is great, you know, without, like, the pressure of being in a group setting or in small groups, even so that people aren't faced with the pressure to perform themselves. And so those are, you know, I think, critical as well. But again, precipitating all that is that internal work, I think, which is taking accountability and responsibility for even holding space for other folks, right? That's hard work. I.

Shawna  50:06  
You. Dr Castillo, Kalia, thank you. Thank you. This was a phenomenal conversation, so insightful, and you've given us so many things to consider, I think, whether you're a person who is mixed race or not, so I really appreciate the time that you've spent, not only sharing about your own lived experiences, but your research and what you bring as a practitioner for folks who are navigating these spaces. So thank you very much.

Speaker 1  50:32  
Thank you for having me and asking such thoughtful, wonderful questions. I've learned so much from being with you today.

Unknown Speaker  50:40  
I appreciate it. Thank you.

Shawna  50:41  
I'm glad always when we can learn together. Is there anything that you'd like to share with listeners where they can find you or your research, or anything you'd like to give a shout out to, or anyone you'd like to give a shout out to?

Speaker 1  50:57  
Thank my family for just being a part of this process and journey for me and being so supportive. I have a website, orchid therapy, ny.com, I have a LinkedIn with my name, yeah. I welcome anyone who has any questions or wants to connect. That would be wonderful,

Shawna  51:12  
fantastic. Well, thank you again for sharing your time. Thank

Speaker 2  51:16  
you. Take care. Take care. You

Shawna  51:27  
Whoa, I really thought this was such a good conversation. Kalia reminds us that identity work is not a checklist. It's really a lifetime of unpacking and reflecting and rewriting stories that were handed to us before we had the language to push back. And you know, that's one of the things I really love about the show and talking with folks, I feel like it gives us language. It gives us ways to express what it is that we're experiencing and to confront some of those really hard things that we face around identity. Dr Castillo's vulnerability and her wisdom makes space for all of us, navigating the messy, beautiful and in between spaces, whether you're showing up as a parent, a colleague, a clinician, or just as your whole self in this world, I hope that this conversation helped you feel more seen. This is the end of the episode, but not the end of the conversation until next time. Stay curious, stay connected and keep on embracing your true colors. Spread the Love y'all we need it. I'll talk to you soon.

Intro  52:37  
You've been listening to our true colors. You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai