Masks, Mirrors, and Metamorphosis: Londell Jackson on Living Unboxed

In this episode, Shawna sits down with Londell Jackson—educator, strategist, and author of Between the Opposites—for a powerful conversation about the complexities of identity. From growing up mixed-race in Denver to navigating masculinity as a same-gender-loving Black and Latino man, Londell shares his deeply personal journey of self-discovery, cultural belonging, and emotional growth. Together, they explore themes like authenticity, inherited narratives, and the courage it takes to confront our “shadow self.”

Topics Covered:

• Growing up multiracial and feeling “not enough” for any one group
• Redefining masculinity beyond social expectations
• Why curiosity, empathy, and vulnerability are keys to connection
• The lenses we inherit vs. the ones we choose
• How identity journeys evolve across our lifetime

Resources Mentioned:

• Between the Opposites by Londell Jackson
• Carl Jung’s concept of the Shadow Self 
• NeverEnding Story: Atreyu’s Mirror Scene

Don't forget to check out Dr. Gann's new book, Mixed Signals: A Multiracial Window into Civility and Belonging at Work available in hardcover, paperback, eBook, and audiobook. 

If this is your first time with OTC, check out  EPISODE 1: START HERE for more background on the show. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram

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Consider joining the Critical Mixed Race Studies Association!

Transcript

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Intro  00:06

Welcome to Our True Colors, hosted by Shawna Gann. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial riddle, an ethnic enigma and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.

Shawna  00:23

Hi everyone. Thank you so much for joining me on this episode of our true colors. Before we get into it, though, I just want to pause. Let's just take a moment to acknowledge the times that we're living in. For many of us, things are feeling really heavy right now, and we've been through a lot together in these five seasons, right we've seen social unrest. We've been through several elections, and we've been through COVID. There's been a lot we've been through, but right now, things remain a bit tricky. There's a lot of uncertainty, there's a lot of turbulence out there, politically, socially, culturally, and if you've been feeling unsettled, frustrated or even disoriented, you're definitely not alone. I am feeling it too in moments like this. I think it's even more important to ground ourselves in conversations that remind us who we are, beyond the headlines, beyond the noise, beyond the boxes that people try to put us in, and that's what today's episode is actually about. 

Shawna  01:23

My guest is Londell Jackson. Landell is a powerful voice and a deep soul. He's a fourth generation Denver native and a sixth generation Coloradan who has spent more than 25 years working at the intersection of community empowerment, equity and education. His career has spanned nonprofits, private foundations, and national initiatives focused on LGBTQIA plus rights, workforce development and financial education. But what makes this conversation with law and also special isn't just his impressive resume, and it is impressive. It's the way he brings his full self to the table as a mixed race, same gender, loving black and Latino man. He speaks with honesty and graceabout growing up without a clear box to fit into, navigating masculinity on his own terms and the emotional labor of becoming who you truly are. Together. We talk about identity, authenticity, the masks we wear, and the power of curiosity, especially when it's turned inward, we also reflect on how culture, community and even trauma, shape the lenses that we see through, and also what it takes to change them. I'm so glad you're here with me for this discussion. Let's dive in. 

Shawna  02:42

Hi, Londell, thank you so much for joining me today. 

Londell Jackson  02:46

Thank you for having me. 

Shawna  02:47

It's truly a treat. You and I got to meet and chat a little bit beforehand, and your story, just from having met you before, was so intriguing. But then on top of that, I have since received and read your book. There's so much here that I think readers could relate to, could be interested in, just as you as a person, but I think what you've captured in your experiences and the message that you're trying to bring to readers points to the complexity of what it is to be a human first of all, like not even beginning to dive into all of the various identities that we have. So before we get into some of these experiences that you've shared in your book and all of that complexity, I always like to invite my guests to share a little something about themselves that wouldn't typically be in a bio, something that's fun and interesting about you, a surprising fact. 

Londell Jackson  03:42

One of my favorite hobbies is movie watching. I think what might be most surprising maybe is the genre that I choose to enjoy, which is typically horror movies. I think I was exposed to them at a very impressionable age, and have grown with them ever since, but it allows me to escape to some degree, some reality, and then it's kind of like riding a roller coaster, you know, the anticipation of going up the hill and then that first drop coming down, and then just the invigorating ride that comes along with it is I find that very intriguing and entertaining through my watching of various horror movies, Both some classics and which come to mind are Halloween and Carrie and Friday the 13th. But there's also some that are a little bit more intellectual, like The Barbarian that was came out and I think just a few years ago or something, but now that's a little something about me that I don't think you will find in a bio. I don't write it out a lot, and because people then turn their heads and like, Why do you like horror? That's a whole other discussion among itself. 

Shawna  04:46

Well, you know, honestly, it makes me smile because I was just making the comment recently to somebody that I've noticed in the past, you would see lots of trailers and ads for movies coming out in the theater that would. The horror films. You know, September, October is when they're usually out. These days, it's all year round. As a matter of fact, you know how, like companies and businesses will do, like Christmas in July. I just saw recently something about six months until Halloween, like people are counting down until Halloween, and I'm like, what? I didn't know that was a thing. And I just, you know, I couldn't ever get into it. I'm too much of a scaredy cat. There is a TV show. I forget which platform it's on right now, but it's so popular. Yellow Jackets, oh yes, my husband's like, do you want to try to start yellow jacks? I'm like, oh no man, because I don't know if I can handle it. Like, there's just things. And Jordan Peele right now, like his movies. I love them for different reasons, but I'm always like, cannot do it. I don't know. You know, I just such a chicken, because, you know why I have to, like, watch cartoons or something, like, I'm six afterwards, like I have to cleanse whatever the palette is for the brain or memory so that I can sleep. But I don't think you're alone., Londell. People are into horror films these days. 

Londell Jackson  06:12

Yeah. And I would suggest, just as a I think you can give Yellow Jackets a try. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Shawna  06:19

mmmmkay...mmmmmkay... Well, thank you for sharing that with us, and I think it'd be great just to learn more about you in general, this show really focuses on what it is to be a person that doesn't fit neatly into some social box, right? Like society loves to do that to us because we're human, and humans love to categorize because it makes us feel safe to know that a label is on something, whether we're placing a label on ourselves or on others. But you know, we don't always have a neat label for ourselves or for groups. Do you have some experiences that you could share with when it comes to belonging or not fitting into a given social box. 

Londell Jackson  07:04

Oh, most definitely. I think being a multiracial individual, you kind of grew up that way, or I kind of grew up that way. I grew up that way, never being enough for one side, never being enough for another side, and then really just trying to figure out what is enough mean? And so I spent the most recent years of my life over 50 now, and so I did some discovering of who I am and what it means to be me, and really being able to think about like for me, a big one was masculinity. What does masculinity mean to me? I'm a same-gender-loving Black, male, Afro-Latino, but growing up, particularly in my late teens and mid to early 20s, really got the message that because of who it is I chose to love, that I was never masculine, or masculinity was just these types of characteristics and and at that point, I really never saw those characteristics within myself. 

Londell Jackson  08:00

Over the years, I've really done some personal work to really realize that, just like many other things, I have the prerogative of choosing what does masculinity mean to me, and so it may be one thing for myself where it's not another thing for another person. You know, there's so many different ways in which I can define myself, and I can show up, and I can just appear and really being able to straddle these lines of the hard line of you have to be one thing, you have to do another thing, you have to act a certain way, you have to speak a certain way. That's really been my maturation process. And so it's something that I continue to work on, something that I think a lot of individuals in general, I judge that want to find exactly how do they show up in life, and and is the way that they're showing up in life? Is it really genuine for themselves? And is it something that's really something that they're inheriting from somebody else, whether that's parents, family, friends, the society at large, but really speaking to themselves and saying, you know, I am a genuine person, and this is how I choose to show up in the world, and really honoring that with themselves.

Shawna  09:19

Yeah. Wow. Okay, so I often use gender as an example when trying to help folks understand why people who are mixed race or multi ethnic or multi racial in whichever way that they are, for example, like I'm a multi generational mixed person, which means I don't have parents of two different races. My quote mix comes so much further back in my ancestry, but it still has made me a racially ambiguous looking person, right? And so trying to understand what that is, if you aren't a person that holds a mixed race identity in some form, can be kind of both. Like and I think about gender kind of the same way, because both are social constructions, like, who decided what blackness is? Who decided what it is to be Latina or Latina? It comes from a label that people who don't look like us made, right? They're the ones that decided what that is. So don't we get to decide what that feels like? And I feel like that's much the same for gender. 

Shawna  10:23

Back in the day, y'all, I used to teach elementary school, and I had a third grade class in this one year, I had this little boy named Kerry, and Kerry wore pink every single day, and at the beginning of the school year, you know, the boys mostly teased him. Kerry rolled in with his big fro and his pink polo, his pink t shirt, his pink whatever, his pink shoes. And he was just like, Why can't my favorite color be pink? I like pink. You like red. You like blue. And I was like, Okay, well, at your like, he knew who he was at eight, yeah. Which brings me to the second point, you started to sort of touch on authenticity, being who you truly are. Look, y'all, if an eight year old could be authentic to himself and show up in school with his pink whatever he wanted, because that was his favorite color, because who said pink was for a girl or for a boy or whatever? It's just a color, and he can be himself authentically, then so can we, if we are brave enough to do so. And that brings me to the third thing, the narratives that we have inherited and that we adopt for ourselves, right? I'm a coach too, so I always think about what tape is playing in our heads, what's our playlist look like, or, if you're from my generation, what's that mixtape look like? You know, like? What do you have that are your standbys, the your favorites that just are on repeat, whether you want them to be there or not. It's usually some message that we've received about what it is to be a certain thing or certain way, and how we're expected to live that out, and when can we decide to make a new playlist? And how hard is that to do?

Londell Jackson  12:11

Those messages? Oftentimes, they're oftentimes verbal messages. Well, I shouldn't say just verbal messages. They're messages that are outwardly spoken. They're displayed, but they're also here that also display their messages that that are entered into our subconscious and that aren't direct, like you can't wear pink, because that's not what boys do. It's more of watching someone who else is being picked on because they're a boy that's wearing pink, and then you inherit that and say, well, that must be something that I should be doing, that I should do, because it I see what's happening to that person, and I don't want the same thing to happen to me. And unfortunately, there's so many instances where we do get those unspoken messages, those that just tell us that we don't have the right to be who we are, and if we try to, albeit, it's somewhat true, it can be very difficult to be your true self, to be your authentic self, because of we're fighting so many different battles to exhibit that realness who we choose to be and who we want to be.

Shawna  13:14

Yeah, absolutely. And then layer on top of that, not just the messages about one aspect of your identity. But then if you have different aspects of your identity that overlap, that would normally be some sort of barrier where it's like, bam, you get it this way, because this is this part of your identity, and on this side, it's like this, and then it's like, how do you deal with all of that. And I know you know, you mentioned a couple of things about yourself. You know, being a mixed race individual, and not just a mixed race individual, but a person being same gender, loving all of that together, is just like, okay, when you go to the eye doctor and they put the thing on you, right? So imagine you've got that little mask thing, and they're like, Okay, everything's blurry, right? And you're like, yep. And they go, which one's better? One or two, and they flip the little thing, right? So every time they flip that little thing, it's like another lens. And so what does it take to see through all of those identities to a point of clarity, versus, are you making it worse for yourself or for somebody else, as you continue, instead of adding clarity with each lens, there's these barriers you're adding each time, right? So not only are we fighting these narratives, but we've got people walking around here with all kinds of jacked up lenses, some got clear lenses, you know? And you're like, Y'all, when it comes down to it, take this mask off, and I'm just a human, but they've got whatever tape they're playing. 

Londell Jackson  14:43

Yeah, and I think I couldn't think of a more appropriate analogy than what you just used, because not only are we searching to find those lenses that allow us to see clearly, not necessarily on what's in front of us, but see clearly ourselves and live in an authentic space. And just like glasses, we should always be, I judge that we should always be looking at redefining and refocusing that. So just like I get an annual eye exam, I need to look at, you know, yeah, I can't see a foot away further now. And so, as it relates to myself, Am I really living into authentic human in in my authenticity? Am I really living to what I said I was going to do? And sometimes, you know, along that year's Road, I've done something to cloud my vision or learn something else that sharpens my vision. And I think that's really a good example of how we continue to remold ourselves and become that really authentic person. I judge that it's not an end destination, agreed. I judge that it is a voyage and that it is a journey that can be spectacular and can be like a horror film at the same time. Let's say that our horror films are spectacular. 

Shawna  15:58

Don't you think sometimes people will fully take off the glasses too. Like, let's say you've gotten some clarity, but then what you see is scary, whether that means it's scary because it makes you face some reality or because it challenges a way of thinking. So I think some people are willful when they decide not to see a person for who they are, and I agree so much that it is a journey. It is I say that all the time, honestly, like identity, journeys don't really end until, you know, until it's over, then you know, then you're not thinking about it anymore. But also, because who we are as humans, like we continue to adapt and evolve. We're always introduced to some new information, data inputs all the time, and that can change your viewpoint or your approach, and sometimes you don't want to deal with it, so you take the glasses off, and other times you dial in a little bit more.

Shawna  17:12

I did want to ask you about something that I saw in your book. 

Londell Jackson  17:15

Yeah

Shawna  17:16

I think a lot of folks, when they think about mixedness, so to speak, they only think black and white most of the time. You also talked about this idea of being enough, which comes up a lot. You said, you said, over the years, I've grown to accept I'm not enough of one tribe to be fully accepted by any tribe. I've been told I act too white to be black and too black to be Mexican. Can you just talk about that a little bit? 

Londell Jackson  17:44

Certainly, growing up in Denver, one might make the assumption that, particularly in Denver proper, that there isn't a large community of black people who just isn't, not like I've experienced in Atlanta or in Chicago or other large cities. So just as some context in a comparison, so I grew up in a majority white neighborhood, not to say that there weren't any other people that looked like me that went to school, because there surely were now, because of how I was raised, I was raised in my mother's family. She was Latino, and it was this weird phenomenon. He was raised in the 50s with her and her siblings, and in that time, because of the way they looked, they passed, and that was a point for them to pass by. What I mean by that is by looking white or not looking like a person of color. And so as I grew up and grew into myself, there were many microaggressions that happened in my upbringing, which corrected the way I speak, which corrected the way I talk, or how I move around, how I interact with others, and so I wasn't one to pick up any sort of vernacular of any sort. I was just this nerd that was in school, and I loved that part about myself, but I found that because of how I found myself in school and particularly and speaking a certain way, whatever that way is, that just wasn't a no. I was told that I was pretending that I was white because of my experiences, because of how I sounded, because of how I interacted with others. I was told that that I was just never going to be accepted into this community because of my feminine nature at that point. But there were things that, you know, I really needed to say in my adult life, that this is okay and actually let me go back to a piece of going to college. 

Londell Jackson  19:41

I went to Morehouse College, which is a predominantly all black, all male school in Atlanta, Georgia, and that's probably where I've faced this phenomenon the most, which you know, men would come up to me from all walks of life and ask, So, what are you? Where are you from? Who are you? Um. Um, and I really didn't know that I'd respond to that question, because I'm me correct, right? So it's really difficult to explain for me who I was and who I am at some days, some days, I want to be a smart aleck and I want to say, well, you know, you smart mouthed, and say something typically rude and passive aggressive. In other days, I feel like I want to be instructional and educational and let people know exactly where I come from. Meaning, what is my ancestry, what is my education, what is my background? But as I get older, I find myself not wanting to be as educational as I used to be, because it's just like I've had enough, and then likewise, and the opposite side is my Mexican relatives. I don't speak a lick ofSpanish other than kind of what I learned in middle school and high school. I have relatives that will deliberately speak in Spanish while I'm around, because that's their way of excluding me from being a part of them. 

Shawna  21:10

Like, intentionally? 

Londell Jackson  21:11

Oh, definitely intentionally, yes. And, you know, sometimes it hurts, and sometimes I just have to come to the realization, or have come to the realization that, you know. This is not about me. This is about them. I have the same grandparents that they have. I have some of the same similar experiences that they have, but I've just moved enough. I may be too dark for them. I may be too whatever for them, but it really now isn't necessarily part of not trying to find a way to describe to them or to beg them or to ask for them to let me into their life. So at this point in my life, it's really about it's a pleasure to know who I am. It's a pleasure to know me. And you know, if you want to be a part of that, let's Jive together. Otherwise, you know you can do what you need to do, and I'll continue doing what I've been doing.

Shawna  22:03

I think that is really profound, and it takes a long time to get to that point to love yourself and respect yourself enough to feel like you don't have to answer to anybody, because you as you are, that's enough. But when you go most of your life with people questioning you know your ancestry and why it even matters, like why it's so important to them, I don't know I get excited when somebody sees me as a Black person,

Londell Jackson  22:36

I can appreciate what you're saying completely. When I was younger, I would not want people to see that I was mixed. I just want them to see me as a black person, because that's just how I grew up. That's how I socialized. Now I want to be seen just as that black person. I want to be seen as this combination, so I can I bond with you on that desire to just be proud and saying someone sees me for who I am and what they want to necessarily project on on me. And so I'm totally there with you on that one.

Shawna  23:09

I'm glad, because I do feel kind of silly about it, but I can't help it. I just I don't know, because I've had to explain, like I always and I say, had to. Nobody has to, but it just feels like I'm compelled to explain. 

Londell Jackson  23:25

Yeah, they ask you, they look at you and so say, so what are you? And you're like, oh, here we go again. Or Yes. And then that doesn't even have to be a verbal explanation or question. It's just that look that someone gets as they try to figure out they run through all these images. Yeah, and you know, it is for it is for them. But no, I get it totally. 

Shawna  23:48

Where are you from? So tell me about your family. They know better now than to just be like, What are you? But, boy, the dance they do to try to get to the to the answer is hilarious. Sometimes it's a little entertaining. I'm not even gonna lie. Sometimes I just let them do it.

Londell Jackson  24:05

I enjoy it on vacation. Sometimes I can be just about any person I want to be. I'm putting up on where I am. 

Shawna  24:11

That is true for people who are racially ambiguous. And I think that people who are in the acting business who are racially ambiguous, they probably open up so many roles for themselves. And I find myself even fascinated when I see somebody like that, like I want to know. You know, I do my studies on mixed race experiences, so I am always curious of examples of people, but at the same time, I totally get why people want to know, because sometimes I even want to know, and sometimes it's because I feel represented in media, like when there's somebody who's not quite whatever. You know, I used to get so mad at Mariah Carey because when I was younger, before she was Mimi people used to always say that I looked like her. And I'd say, well, probably because we're both light skinned over. Ever. But she would never, in any interview, say that she was mixed, like it was just always such a mystery. And then finally, in later years, you know, she shared more about her ancestry and stuff, and it was like, these days, I feel like people are less surprised. They might still be intrigued, but the population of mixed folks has grown and continues to grow so much that it's more normalized. You're less of a novelty in some exotic figure, you know. But I don't it was so funny. I used to get so frustrated, like, why will she not say it? And when Megan Markle, oh yes, married Prince Harry. My face was so glued to that television. I was just so happy to see the representation and the openness of it, like it didn't have to be some weird, mysterious secret because of the anti miscegenation laws, like just being a mixed person was bad. I I've been called a mulatto grown up. I've been called a half breed, all kinds of things, and it's like so I could get why people keep it sort of to themselves, but I also crave the examples and the representation. 

Londell Jackson  26:13

Yeah, that's what I was going to chime in about. But, you know, there's a lot back then, iTunes, Gen, Xer, and kind of going back to what my family experienced, I mean, it was, it was not safe, really, to invite yourself into the criticism of being an individual, mixed heritage or a mixed race, because you are, in essence, then inviting the questions. You are inviting the speculation. You are inviting a lot of negativity into your life by acknowledging that, yeah, my my ancestry, my parents, my whomever, they're of different races or different ethnicities, and yeah, so I totally get, you know why someone like Mariah Carey or even still, you know, I'm not huge on star names, but you know, I'm pretty sure there's many other people in the public eye who they're not ashamed of it, but they Don't make it a point to bring it up. 

Shawna  27:08

You one of the things I love to offer listeners is like stuff they can take away and apply to their lives, actually, no matter what their identities are. And there's a thing that you said about curiosity, vulnerability and empathy being keys to helping people come together. And I think in a time like now, y'all just to be straight, there is, and I don't want to even say a lot of division anymore. I know a lot of people say there's a lot of division, and we're all, you know, I think people are a little lost right now, specifically in the US, and that might have led to some division, because we all want to belong. We all want to feel seen and understood in some way, and politically speaking, socially speaking. It's hard to be on the same page, because we quite literally, are on a million different digital pages. Look back in the day, we had like, three channels, y'all. We were just talking about this, my husband and I, because I was like, Do you remember video jukebox. And he was like, oh yes, no, see, you remember. He didn't remember it. And I was like, yeah, it was, like, on one of them, UHF, the like, okay, 

Londell Jackson  28:48

yes, 

Shawna  28:48

That sound you guys, because nobody knows what that was. Let me, let me just explain. 

Londell Jackson  28:54

That's great. 

Shawna  28:55

That sound is me turning the dial on the UHF dial, because there was, like, 50-11 like those, it would be like listening to am radio, okay, but on the VHF dial, there was like four clicks, click, click, click, click, okay. So back in the day, everybody sat down and watched evening news. Then there were folks who had their daily newspaper. Could have been a national paper or their local paper. This is before we had anything even resembling the computers we carry on our pockets now. Okay, the conversations that you might have about society, about even pop culture or politics, you all are coming from basically four or five sources. Everybody saw the same information, and then we had to use our own critical thinking skills and apply our own values and belief systems to decide how we felt about what was reported. These days, you've got algorithms working overtime to keep feeding in more and more of whatever it is you'd like or. Chair or forward or whatever that is. And so then, when we come to the table to discuss what's going on, we've got so many different sources, it's hard. But one of the things that you talked about in your book was, how can we, instead of being ready to come at people for their differences of opinion or whatever, how can we come with curiosity. How can we show a little bit of vulnerability, and how can we apply some empathy? 

Londell Jackson  30:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was thinking about this topic earlier. We live in a space of noise right now, sheer noise, and we pick and choose what frequency of that noise we're going to listen to, to your point, this moment, this hour, this next three or four days, and then we change it up as much as we can or much as we desire to, but it's still a lot of noise. It's a lot of noise from one opinion to another, end of another opinion. It's like a popularity contest.

Shawna  31:00

It is, isn't it like, actually, quite literally, how many likes and follows? It's quantifiable, 

Londell Jackson  31:05

Yes. And so it's the popularity contest of noise, and who can be loudest and who can be most egregious, and sometimes, and it's not coming from a place of curiosity. And so what I mean by curiosity is I can be judgmental, just as anybody else can. And through my growth, there's been a level of maturation that I've still am going through that is about looking at someone and instead of immediately seeing that person and making the judgments about that person, when I think about that person, when I believe that person, which are, you know, based on just my mirror looking at them or hearing them for three or four seconds that I take the opportunity to think about, well, where are these judgments coming from? What is it that is getting me riled up, or, what is it that that's that triggering this emotion, and that's this curiosity. It's the what, not the why, but the what. What is it that's happened to me in my lifetime, which I may have experienced this, this emotion, or maybe have experienced this thought, or what have you? And then approaching the situation, not always a person, but the situation, with some curiosity, like I want to learn more. I can still have my own feelings and emotions about so I can be really angry about a thing, and I can still be angry about a thing or saddened by a thing, and still want to learn more about that thing. I don't necessarily have to harden myself off and say, well, that's not what I believe, or that's not what my grandmother told me, or that's not what my best friend told me. 

Londell Jackson  32:43

Well, that's not what I want to believe. You know, it's not that. You know, I'm going to choose which lens I want to use or look through, but it's about, well, what would happen if I chose a different lens? What would be my life experience if I chose this other lens or casting at someone else? You know, I don't know why someone said something to me in a certain tone. I don't know why someone, you know, put me off on the highway. I don't know why. I don't know why. Yes, it'll elicit the response for me. Yet, there could be an somebody having an emergency, emergent situation in that car in front of me. Yeah. And so my empathy is about, you know, thinking, Where have I been in this particular situation? Where can I see myself in this situation? And that's when we get to the vulnerability side. If I can see myself in a space or having been part of a conversation or name it, then I owe it to myself to think about it and then to be vulnerable with myself. I don't have to be vulnerable with the whole platform for my people, but what I do need to do is say, Londell, come on, what's really going on here? Let's sit around and think about what is happening. Why we believe this and is it true? What are the actual data elements. Everything else is judgment because of this data. I made this judgment because of this data experience. I made this judgment, and this is me being empathetic, or growing into empathy and developing this personal vulnerability with myself saying, okay, Londell, you're pretty harsh with this person. And this is, this could be the reason why, how are we going to do this differently next time? 

Londell Jackson  34:26

I mean, there's an example that's coming up in mainland right now. My husband and I, we were out walking around the lake. This was five or six years ago, and on this very popular lake, there's, there's no designated bike lane. And so people just, you know, in my judgment, sometimes in a very bad bike etiquette, yeah, and so, you know, after however many people had ridden past the someone else rode past us, and they merely just said, "Watch yourself". Yes, for whatever reason, hearing that triggered within me, and then seeing the person that was in front of me, and "Why don't you just go back home?" And I'm not one for public confrontation. I'm just not but I don't know. 

Shawna  35:14

Wait, is that what you said? You said to the person, why don't you just go back home? 

Londell Jackson  35:17

That's what I said. I said, just go back home. They stopped their bike, which isn't surprising. It just happened to be a black couple, which is important for this conversation, or this example, and they're like, What did you say? Why did you say that to me? I was thinking, why don't you just go back home, since you can't ride on a bicycle pass, and I'm all bitter. What they got is me with my white husband, telling him to go back someplace that wasn't there, got it. And they had to really explain to me, well, won't say it wasn't really explaining. And so the gentleman and his wife, judging, and assuming that was his wife, got back on their bicycle and just rode off before they got onto the bike. They called me a Trump loving N word,

Shawna  36:01

All of that came out of "Go home"?

Londell Jackson  36:04

Yes, that's what they got from that. 

Shawna  36:07

Wow. 

Londell Jackson  36:08

So my lesson immediately, because I'm just kind of standing in in fury, also embarrassment, because it's just this is really neat. I'm not this person to pick fights with people, and even if they do bother me on a bike trail, I'm just not this person. Nonetheless, I acted out my husband says to me, Well, you know, it is odd that they were the only ones that you chose to say something to. I really then began to look at what was the emotional trigger that was going on with me. Why is it that I chose this couple to make a statement to and ignore the many other people who had done committed the same fraction that weekend, I realized this was about me and about them the way I reacted, the way I said what I said was totally about me from past experiences of other people who may have looked like them, what I felt I was being treated as and so had I taken the watch yourself and not gone down this Road of judgment. Had I been more curious of what does that mean? Or, well, I've heard that before, what I would have done differently is just stepped aside because the emotional, intelligent part of this is realizing that I had been emotionally triggered by past events. I was not at all being curious about why these people were doing this, or why they were on the path, or why they said to excuse me or not to my satisfaction, I should say the vulnerability was to have my husband tell me this to my face, for me to sit with it, not to get into an argument with him about it...

Shawna  37:56

...or be immediately defensive. 

Londell Jackson  37:58

Yeah. And so I fast forward that to today, where I no longer, and I promise you, I've no longer done this to anybody else, and I have realized that they're more things I contribute to the noise, the more I cast judgment on a subject, person in a place. And I'm not going to say that I can't have my feelings, but my feelings are not the responsibility of someone else. My emotions are not the responsibility of someone else. And when I'm in this empathetic space and when I'm being vulnerable with myself, I feel as though I am being a human being in the best place that I can be, not perfect, but right the best place I can. And so this is what I hear, or what I feel is going on currently, is there's just so much noise happening, there's so much judgment happening with what's being said that that I judge people aren't listening or understanding where are their emotions coming from? What is the heart of all this for them personally? And then, how can we create a different discourse? How can we engage in conversation? We can have a debate just simply screaming at one another, and this time is not getting us anywhere. Yeah. And so how can we what can I aid to the reduction of this noise?

Shawna  39:27

Well, first of all, I agree with you, but I also think it's quite scary to sit with something that is your own and face that, like, remember earlier I said, like, sometimes we want to take the glasses off, like, I don't want to see that. You know Neverending Story?

Londell Jackson  39:44

Yes, totally. 

Shawna  39:45

Okay. Do you remember when what's the, what's the kid's name, Atreyu? 

Londell Jackson  39:51

Atreyu. Yes. 

Shawna  39:52

He has to go through the gates. There's like, the first gate has, like the angel looking things, and they try to zap him with his eye. Is right with their eyes right, and he makes it through whatever. And then there's another gate, but the third gate is him looking in the mirror, and that's the most difficult challenge that he has to overcome. And I think about that like oftentimes what scares us is seeing ourselves. And if anybody who's into psychology or even even in the coaching and things like that. It's a very Jungian...very Carl Jung thing to talk about, the shadow self and facing the dark side of us, which we don't have to turn from and we don't have to be afraid of, because it's still us. It's just a side that we believe we should not have. What I love about what you explained, Lindell, is you talked about showing up with curiosity for others, but you are also curious about yourself. When you said, Where is this coming from? What is the thing actually? And I don't think many of us stop long enough to ask ourselves that question, like, what actually is it inside of me that's making that a trigger in the first place? None of us wants to feel like we have an ugly side to us, but it's just part of being human, and we can always work on that so it's less ugly, but it is just being human. And if we can see the humanity in others, maybe we could come together and realize, in many ways, we are on the same page. And doesn't mean we have to agree. And sometimes I think people's choices can be harmful to others, and so like, I'm just not going to come to agreement with that. But we don't have to be ugly. 

Shawna  41:45

Thank you so much for sharing your time and your insights. This has been really good. We've covered glasses, contacts. No, I'm just kidding. No. This has really been so good. And each one of these conversations I just find to be so valuable, because every person. No matter how it is that we show up with our various identities, we all bring a different thing to the table. So it's been very valuable. Is there anything that you want to share in terms of having folks reach out to you or to find you, perhaps, where to get your book and so on? 

Londell Jackson  42:19

Please do visit between the opposites.com where you can find out more about the book and order a copy of your own. You're also welcome to, by way of that page, send me a message yourself if there's something that comes up for you, or if you want to have another conversation such as this, by all means, that'd be the best way to get in touch with me. 

Shawna  42:42

Excellent. And I'll put everything the show notes for folks too. Well. Thank you. I hope that we get to talk again. This was amazing. Yes, likewise. All right, take care of yourself. Be safe. Bye too. Thank you, my pleasure.

42:54

Thank you very much as well.

Shawna  42:59

So good stuff, right? I knew it would be a good conversation. In fact, the conversation with londell reminds us that identity isn't something that you just check off on a form. Yes, we have to do all that bureaucratical stuff. It's just kind of the way it is. But who we are like our identity, it's something we live but we also wrestle with it. We redefine ourselves over time. We are definitely not fixed points for humans. That means we're layered, fluid and evolving, and in the middle of all that complexity, there's beauty, but we have to be willing to sit with the weirdness, like the discomfort, and we have to question the scripts we've inherited right, that mixtape, that playlist, what's going on in there, and if we can do that, then we can be honest with ourselves, and that's where the authenticity comes from. Whether you're mixed marginalized, or you're just really tired of being misunderstood, I hope that this episode offered a breath of recognition and maybe even a new lens to see yourself through until next time, stay curious, stay connected and keep embracing your true colors. Spread the Love y'all. I'll talk to you soon.