Coming to Our Census: Are the Race and Ethnicity Questions Needed?

In this episode, Shawna and Shannon head down to the National Mall in Washington DC to ask people to share their thoughts about the upcoming 2020 US Census with respect to the race questions. How do people in our nation's capital feel about the possible inclusion of ethnicity? Should race be a question included in the census at all? Why or why not? Come along as catch the vibe!

Links to more info about the 2020 US Census:

General 2020 Census Info

On including ethnicity as part of the questionnaire:

• https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/decennial/2020/program-management/memo-series/2020-memo-2018_02.pdf
• https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/20/seeking-better-data-on-hispanics-census-bureau-may-change-how-it-asks-about-race/ft_17-04-17_census_questionnaire/

Studies mentioned in the episode:

• https://www.publicschoolreview.com/blog/white-students-are-now-the-minority-in-u-s-public-schools
• https://www.brookings.edu/research/less-than-half-of-us-children-under-15-are-white-census-shows/

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Transcript

Intro  00:04
Welcome to tribe and true hosted by Shawna Gann. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial riddle, an ethnic Enigma and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.

Shawna  00:21
Hey, everyone, welcome to this week's episode of tribe and true. I'm super excited because for this episode, Shannon came into town, she made it to DC. And we got to work together in person instead of remotely like we usually do. This week's topic centers around part of the US Census, it's coming up, you know, it's done every decade. And as we near 2020, like really near 2020, we thought it'd be interesting to talk about what we might see on the survey. At the time of this recording in late December, we still don't have a complete list of the actual questions being asked on the census. But I did go to 2020 census.gov to try to get some more information. 

On the website, there's a link called questions asked, and it just gives an overview of what types of questions will be asked and also what would never be asked. So first of all, what they say would never be asked, that would be your social security number, keep that safe. And don't give that to anybody. They'll never ask you for money or donations, or anything on behalf of a political party. And of course, don't be given census takers, your bank or credit card account numbers. Okay? So those are things that will never be asked. 

They say once they get your answers, everything is kept confidential in terms of your personal information that is, and they're bound by federal law to protect it. So the point of the survey is really for statistical purposes, it isn't for any personal gain or anything like that. So you should be feeling confident that the things that you say are only for the purpose of survey, nothing extra. Yeah, so they'll compile all of those responses, and then do the report. And you can find old reports online to from previous years. They'll be asking things like the ages of the people that live with you their gender and their relationship to you. Questions like that. in the show notes. I've placed some links where you can find out some general census information, but also a more complete list of the types of questions and so on. Today's episode really focuses on the bit about race. 

Are you familiar with the changes that have taken place over the years when it comes to the question about race, prior to the year 2000, a person had to choose so if you were multiracial, or if you identified that way, you weren't able to indicate that on the survey, you had to choose one brace one of the options. In the year 2000, it was changed so that a person could mark more than one box. In the year 2010 there was the addition of a right in space. So you could choose more than one option. But you could also write something else in. The question is, will the 2020 census include the same will it be the same as the 2010 with the multiple choice but also the right option? Or will they adopt one of the proposals which includes breaking this down further into ethnicity? 

Our aim was to go around the city and talk to people about one of the proposed versions. We both took the metro that morning and decided to meet at the Smithsonian stop down at the National Mall. After a greeting and a couple of selfies, we headed to a cafe just to have a little bit of something to munch, and some warm beverages. While we plan our day. We had to make sure equipment was in working order, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, and that we'd be all set for interviews. It was there that we met our first friendly interviewee, we asked her if she was familiar with all of the different changes that have taken place on the census on the part that asks about race.

1st Interviewee  04:01
I'm not familiar, I think with their race and familiar with them asking about immigration status.

Shawna  04:07
And we were curious what she thought about the possibility of the ethnic breakdown being included? 

1st Interviewee  04:16
Yeah. I had never heard of them, like adding that level of nuance to the white category in particular about, I guess your country of origin from way back? I think as a white person, I'm not sure that I feel that that is helpful and identifying me I don't know the answer to that question.

Shawna  04:42
Let's just pause for a minute before we go on with the interview and make sure that we understand the definitions provided by census.gov and how they explain their processes and their reasons for what they do. The racial categories included in the census questionnaire general reflect a social definition of race recognized in this country. census.gov defines the different racial categories that they'll be asking about on the survey. And those categories are white, black, or African American, American Indian and Alaska Native, Asian, Native Hawaiian and other Pacific Islander. And they do include what they mean when they say two or more races. You can find the very specific definitions of what they mean by each one of those categories on their website. Now to the point on why they collect this information. The website goes on to say the following information on race is required for many federal programs, and is critical and making policy decisions, particularly for civil rights. States use these data to meet legislative redistricting principles. Race data also are used to promote equal employment opportunities, and to assess racial disparities and health and environmental risks. Okay, let's get back to our interviewee. After explaining all of that, that I just read, I summarized in the cafe, of course, I wanted to ask our interviewee what she thought about including the race question on the census at all?

1st Interviewee  06:18
I don't know I don't really, if the purpose is just to count the people. I'm not really sure why it matters to have race in there. It seems like, again, if the purpose of the census is just to merely identify like how many bodies are in the United States, then? I guess not. I think that if like that information was going to be used in a way that really said, Oh, we see there a lot of Hispanic people. And then I guess you could jump down and say, therefore, there must be a Spanish population, therefore we should provide resources, like in Spanish, then maybe that is good. I guess I'm just not sure that this is the avenue to do that with and again, like for me, just what I think about is like, okay, so they find that they're a bunch of Hispanic people, are they gonna now assume that they're a bunch of undocumented people then, like, do immigration raids?

Shawna  07:18
She also noticed the very interesting terminology from a previous census.

1st Interviewee  07:25
I was just looking at still uses the term micro. 

Shawna  07:29
Yeah, 

1st Interviewee  07:30
Yeah, that's really wild. 

Shawna  07:32
We thank her for her time. And then we decided to hit the streets. Back down at the National Mall, we met a gentleman who shared his opinions with us, sometimes strong opinions.

2nd Interviewee  07:43
My knee jerk reaction is that it's a bit intrusive, because people get sensitive about some people. Personally, I don't want to say I don't care, but because I'm of African descent. I can't hide who I am. And I'm proud of who I am, and from where I come. But because of the climate of the country, and not that building,

Shawna  08:12
He was pointing to the Capitol Building, 

2nd Interviewee  08:14
But you know, that place on 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and that idiot that said there, he's caused so much confirmation and problems and issues, because of this white supremacists racist attitude that it just it makes things crazy. 

Shawna  08:31
So again, does the race question belong on the census? 

2nd Interviewee  08:35
The short answer is yes. 

Shawna  08:38
Okay. 

2nd Interviewee  08:39
The short answer is yes. Because, and this is something that I found interesting. In this country, I'm 62 years old. I've been around for quite a while I've seen a lot. I've seen a lot. There's a lot that I haven't seen. But I read a statistic that was really interesting. We all know the history of this country. You know, how the so called Founding Fathers came here and did what they did, and free land and free labor and all that kind of stuff. But here's the thing that's really interesting, and I don't know if you are, you probably know, in 2017, they did a study and they said that the average kindergartener, and 2017 is a non-white child.

Shawna  09:27
While I couldn't find the exact study that he was referring to, I did find several others that are pretty interesting. For example, here's one that was published in the public school review and 2014 entitled, white students are now the minority in US public schools. And aptly a Brookings Institute report dated June 24 2019, and updated July 17 2019, is headlined less than half of us children under five tea or white census shows,

2nd Interviewee  10:03
Game changer, this country's going to change. And, you know, for the better or worse, whatever. But it's unfortunate that you know that race is such an issue, but it is it is.

Shawna  10:18
Not too much later, we found a gentleman who was willing to share his opinion on whether or not he thought it would be a good idea to include the ethnic breakdown on the race question on the 2020 census.

3rd Interviewee 10:29
I think it is, I mean, so folks can relate so they won't have to feel the other. rather old. So I remember when it was black, white or other, even in school, the family cards do you have to do so i think is fine, you know, folks feel as though they fit into a particular group, they should have the option of checking that group and not being pigeon holed into one of one of the three or four sections for the whole country. 

Shawna  10:56
And when it comes to including the race question at all, 

3rd Interviewee 11:01
Depending on how they collect the information, they're going to do what they want to do. And when I say they, the, the the government in general, and I'm not one of those non trusting government, you know, I don't want to give them information types, but as granular as you can go, if they're going to use it positively, then it's okay. You know, if they're saying, hey, you know, this particular group or this ethnicity is drone in this area was decreased in this area over the last 10 years as a trend here. And we need that information for whatever they need it for. However, probably

Shawna  11:36
a little waist down the mall, we found a really friendly person hanging out on the bench, enjoying the beautiful weather. And she had some really exciting news. 

4th Interviewee  11:47
They actually just become became a citizen, 

Shawna  11:50
And how did she feel about including ethnicity on the census race question, or including the question of race at all.

4th Interviewee  12:00
So from a census standpoint, I participated in a census a while back, but I was nervous when I originally participated in that sizes, because I'm like, are you gonna ask if I'm a resident, if I'm not my nationality? Like, why are you asking those questions? And, and I see them both ways. So so to me, one of the biggest things is, I understand that from an analytical standpoint, and when we can use data from an analytical standpoint, to be able to make right decisions, to be able to make the right decisions, whether it might be in policy, whether it might be in how we allocating our taxes. To me that makes sense. The Census information and data is not only just for the politicians is not just for Washington, DC is utilized for a number of different things, right, when I was doing a master's degree, I utilize census data, to be able to try to understand some information around obesity in some of our different states. And to me, that was very interesting and informative. And he was also interested in informative to understand the background of those individuals, because there is theories nature and there is nurture. And, and to me, that was very interesting. And so I am polarized in in that particular point. But I also see the started and, and changed to do say, Well, this is how many people we have that don't belong, or, you know, to make this American nationalism that may be misconstrued and misunderstood. That's where I am polarized, right? Because it's a data point, you can make it be whatever you want, if you have the right way of selling it, right. And, and sometimes, unfortunately, nowadays, that's what we do. We look at things in a narrow view instead of explaining the context. And it's kind of like in a court of law, right? Read whatever is highlighted, and you don't get the context of everything that that was before and after that whatever paragraph you have highlighted, right. And you can take things out of context really easily.

Shawna  14:22
Further down the mall, we ran into a couple walking by and we asked them similar questions. We wanted to know what their thoughts were about, including race on the census at all, if even the Census Bureau considers race to be a social construct, if it's something that's necessary, and how important it would be to include the question about ethnicity, if it were to be included, again, we were not sure yet. We have to wait and see. But knowing that that's one of the proposals. What would that look like and how would people feel about that?

5th Interviewee  15:00
Maybe then people will take them seriously, by the the concept that race is a social construct. And then it really doesn't matter only depends on like what you identify with. So it's kind of like, yeah, I identify as a black woman, for example. But it's much deeper than that. And I think that relates to the A that I need are my opportunities and things like that. And so I guess it is good, because then you can actually allot the help to the people that need it.

6th Interviewee 15:27
Yeah, I think, um, I think it would be a good thing. I mean, not like, you know, invasion of privacy layers so much, but like, I mean, knowing like, you know, where it breaks down to him, like the the percentages of like, Who's Who and what's what, like, I'm sure, in some aspect that could be beneficial, for some some reason.

Shawna  15:51
And then research came into play again.

5th Interviewee  15:54
So I guess the downside would be like, it leaves a lot more, it leaves a lot more questions than you started off with. Like, it's like, okay, now that you're realizing that being, let's say, Black is just something, let's say just black is something that whatever, but then there's like Nigeria, and like I saw and there are Jamaican Caribbean, which can be then broken down even further. And because like, okay, yes, I'm Africana, but then let's say just you just put Nigeria, but there are so many other African nations, there's so many other different types of Caribbean people. And because it's coming from apart from my background, also, like it just, it just makes my work so much harder as a as a researcher, it just leaves me it just leaves it open to so many more variables that it's just so much work. Because then even if you just say, for example, Nigeria, and you have the you have peak, there are different types of Nigerian people as well, the tribes and things like that. So it's complicated.

Shawna  16:44
And this wasn't the only couple to consider how tricky it could be getting into the nitty gritty of ethnicity. Is it even possible to answer these questions on ethnicity? If you don't know enough about your ancestry? How much do you have to know about your background in order to participate at this level?

6th Interviewee  17:01
Well, I think it's interesting. You know, for example, if I were filling in white, trying to specify ethnicity, so then it almost becomes a little bit of an exercise in trying to figure out how much you know about where you were from, where you came from, and which would be fascinating data to have. But I think you might get an odd mix of the sampling in terms of a lot of people may know exactly where they come from, and other people may not either know, or care. So I'm curious as to what kind of data you would get from that, given the fact that some people know a lot about where they came from, and some people don't know anything. 

Shawna  17:51
Yeah. 

6th Interviewee  17:52
And how you would what you would use that data for. It's kind of like one of those, you know, they do DNA or genetic testing now, they can tell you what region you might be from, I do think it's a good idea to move away from what used to be just, you know, your three choices or fortunately, Asian, black, Hispanic, white. 

Shawna  18:15
Yeah, 

6th Interviewee 18:19
It doesn't make sense, given the mix, especially nowadays. So many people are of real mix, that there needs to be a better either get rid of the whole race thing altogether. But I don't know. Um, I like the idea of trying to make it better. I'm just not sure how well that particular approach will work, or at least what kind of information you'll get from it.

Shawna  18:49
And then there's the question of intent, and feeling confident that the information collected is used in the way that it's supposed to be used, or that it was intended to be used, and not for some nefarious reason that could be harmful to people who live in the US.

6th Interviewee  19:06
Yeah, I'm very suspicious about what information will be used for these days, especially given the climate of targeting certain ethnic groups from you know, as being possible, possibly not belonging here, quote, unquote. And so I it makes me nervous to think about what getting ethnicity data might have that might be used in a way that was not at all what was intended.

Shawna  19:40
It's clear folks are torn. It's good to have this information for a number of reasons, research and so on. But is there a way to make the system better so that we can collect the info that we need for the right reasons, without being too invasive or without there being the danger of it being misused?

6th Interviewee  20:01
I don't know, I have really mixed feelings. But on the one hand, I hate to not have some data about the cross section of the country in terms of what were people's backgrounds and so on. Because that's interesting information, especially to see in the future, you know, what the trends are? 

Shawna  20:22
Yeah. 

6th Interviewee
On the other hand, it is just becoming such a complicated thing that I don't know that they're, you know, it's gonna be hard. Let's say you start asking people for DNA samples in their census form, it's gonna be hard to really come up with an ideal way to get that information. I mean, any any particular way of chopping it up is going to have problems, especially given the total number of possible combinations, even if you can check every box, you still somebody has to create the boxes that check and who creates them? And what are their motives for doing it? 

Shawna  21:01
Yeah. 

6th Interviewee
That's a tricky question. I, I'm glad I don't have to design it myself.

Shawna   21:05
And back to the thought of whether this question belongs on that survey or not. 

5th Interviewee   21:11
I think data can be used and misused all the time. And I really feel very strongly as a former educator, and probably still an educator, that it really is nobody's business. The country was built on people that came here because they wanted to be here. Not always. But very often, they came to live a better life. Maybe not initially, but eventually. And I just think it's not right. What what's happening is just not right. It's being misused. I think. I can't envision a way that it could help, at least not in the current climate.

Shawna  21:52
Well, our time was drawing to a close as Shannon had to hit the road. So we grabbed a bench there on the National Mall and talked over what we'd heard people say over the course of the day, Shannon, I are down on the National Mall in DC cuz she came into town. We spent much of the day walking around asking folks about the 2020 census,

Shannon  22:17
We got a lot of good insight, it brought up a lot of things that I didn't even think about. And I loved that we got people from all over different ethnicities and different ages and different levels of education. So I think that's something to say for itself.

Shawna  22:34
Yes. Also, we got, like, we even spoke with someone who was just recently nationalized. So she had even a different perspective on everything. So we'll just so I guess maybe let's start with what the questions were like. Sure. And kind of the background. So I guess this was of interest to me, because census is coming up. It's every 10 years, and there have been some changes. Shannon, you talked a little bit about being asked, What box you have to have checked or something like that. The question is, what is 2020? Gonna bring? Right? 

Shannon  23:14
We don't know. We don't know. 

Shawna  23:16
But we know what's proposed. So let's see, we first talked with a woman and cafe.

Shannon  23:22
She was sitting by herself, so we thought it was a good place to start. And she she had a master's level degree. And her thoughts was, she didn't know why we needed it, right. I mean, I feel like a lot of people we actually talked to didn't think it was a bad thing. They could see how it could turn into something else. Right? Because we don't know exactly how the data is being used. And we heard a lot of people saying, you know, well, our political climate, which Yeah, I totally agree with them. We don't know how it's gonna be used. They say social construct, put policies in place, I guess we will see. But a lot of people here seem pretty driven by data, I would say.

Shawna  24:10
Yeah actually, about everybody that we spoke to was really talking about data and seemed excited about it. I mean, maybe it could be where we are. So we're in a where there's a lot of research that happens. 

Shannon  24:22
And there's a lot of diversity. There's diversity, there's people living here, next to all sorts of races. Yeah, there's something to say about that. 

Shawna  24:30
And different. I mean, you've got politics that can play a part you've got a lot of people that are here are not originally from here, so they bring with them, you know, whatever else 

Shannon  24:43
Very diverse background. 

Shawna  24:44
Exactly, exactly. So she she was really about, like, she seemed pretty open minded, like, like most of the people were, I think, like, yeah, it could be useful, but then at the same time, do we really need this and she was also mindful of what other people might think like how it could affect other people. So we did try to get some folks at a festival but that didn't quite did not work. We headed back down to the mall. I see how many people did we spoke with? 

Shannon  25:12
We spoke with 8 different people. Four females five four males. 

Shawna  25:20
Yeah. I had a pretty big age range, to deal with. 

Shannon  25:23
Yeah. We had all the way from late 20s. To early or, yeah, early 60s, at least and maybe older. Yeah.

Shawna  25:30
So the general thought, yeah, like you said, it was a lot of data. Kind of.

Shannon  25:36
I feel weird about a social construct, though. Because that can kind of mean, you could put anything, right. It's whatever you identify, is that what is that saying? 

Shawna  25:47
Well, I think what it's saying is, we decided what races, right, because there is nothing biological to divide people up in terms of race,

Shannon  25:57
Right. But then my concern, I suppose, is like we had our last episode, or one of the previous episodes, we had talked about how you identify and people are shaken when their identity is not what they think it is, or XYZ, whatever, 

Shawna  26:15
Or somebody does, somebody else decides it's different. They identify so what if they think they're 80%, Italian, and then you get this? 

Shannon  26:24
Your DNA swap X ray, that would be the only way you would find out because there's a disconnect in history if you don't talk to the generation above you. But you know, what, if you're writing down, oh, I'm white, Italian, and then you get you know, in the next 10 years, they have the same maybe they have it the same way. And it turns out, I'm German. So that's like, you know what I mean? It just like really skews. dependent. Right? I hear

Shawna  26:48
you're talking about the proposal to include ethnicity? 

Shannon  26:52
Yes. Yeah. 

Shawna  26:54
So one of the gentlemen that we spoke to he, 

Shannon  26:59
He brought up a good point about data. And the thing that's tricky is, there's been all these changes, right? So do you have a true baseline to track changes in the the demographics, if you keep changing the tool? Right? So if, if before like if 1990? Before, you could only choose from these broad categories? And then now, you know, since then, they've changed the way you can claim your identity, your racial identity on these forms? Couldn't the changes in the, in the tool like in the census question, the way they ask it, shape, what we think about our demographics, so like, you could have the same group of people, but statistically, it would look completely different because the tool is different, right? And not only the tool being different, I think there's a big the interpretation of the tool is going to be different with everyone, unless it's like, strict clear, this is what you do. How are they to say everyone's filling out the form in the same way,

Shawna  28:02
Right. So the form, I mean, I only have access to like what's on the internet, right? Because we don't know what the new ones gonna be yet. But they do have I mean, it's like 25 pages long or something. So they do have definitions. Like, for example, for white it has, you know, a white person is, and then they define what they but there, they give what their definition is. And the same is true for the other categories, they tell what it is. And then there's like these little cutout boxes to explain, like, why you would write in or something like that. So, you know, first you have to trust that somebody is going to read all of it and understand it the same way. Because you can be an American citizen and not understand the language as well. Or if it's not written in a way that's clear, you just gonna probably Mark what's easy for you to mark, if you even want to write or like you said, Maybe your identity will change the way you see yourself. Like, so. Can you track changes? Truly? I don't know. 

Shannon  29:03
I don't know, either. 

Shawna  29:05
Alright. Yeah, the question was basically, should we be asking these questions on the census? If race is a social concepts construct? And if we don't know, like, we know why the census collects it, they tell why. But just because they collect it. For those reasons. Do they have control over how the data is used? 

Shannon  29:29
And will it be used in another way later down the line? 

Shawna  29:34
Right? And is it helpful to us and you know, society or country and even though they their intent is XYZ? Does that. That doesn't mean the data can't be used for ABC.

Shannon  29:44
While the date for me my belief, you know, while the data I think is interesting, I don't think we needed on this census only because, you know, I'm gonna use that buzzword everyone's using today because of the political climate We don't know exactly what it's going to be used for. And, you know, maybe not today but down the line. I'd hate to see it used for the negative. And I don't think it adds much value. Right. Like, it's interesting. I think it's interesting. I would love to know, but also in the same breath, like,

Shawna  30:22
I mean, I guess I understand what people are saying when they're when they say they're torn, because on one hand, if it's used for policy and, and for supporting people and that kind of thing, then it could be, it could be good. But on the other hand, how useful is it? Okay. Also, because I'm thinking, if we're just doing right by people anyway, then why do we need to pay attention? Like, right? Why? Why are we in a position where maybe I'm way off. But I, as I've been talking to people, today, I'm thinking, why are we in a position that we have to ask people's race and how they identify in order to provide equal opportunity? employment? Yep. Ring Ring ring. That's kind of that's, that's what was in my mind today. I was like, you know, I get it, I see. We're collecting it for a policy and for all those things. But actually, if we're doing what we were supposed to do, that shouldn't even have to play a part in policy. I think on a smaller scale, like in your your place of employment, that could be relevant, because maybe collecting that information, optionally, could be relevant if you are really working hard to try to diversify. So I can understand that in the workplace, right? Like, you want to make sure you have a good diverse group of people. So you would record that to make sure like to have a record to say, Okay, oh, gosh, we're really leaning heavy on this side or that side, right. And of course, diversity means more than race, but because the topic is what it is today, that's why I'm focusing on

Shannon  32:02
Something that I'd like to bring up or something, you know, maybe it's just this, you know, we have a small sample. So it's hard to say if it's, you know, significant or not, but I will say out of the eight people, we interviewed, I think three identified as African American. And I don't know if you've noticed this, but all their opinions was we don't care, like, added in, it's fine. And I'm wondering, because that's although minority class. It's not so much of we don't fear getting kicked out of the country, right, or African Americans don't fear getting kicked out of the country. And I wonder if we were to ask this to more Mexican Americans, or Mexican or however you identify that way, or Muslim, because that's a big topic right now. I wonder if they would, you know, feel the same?

Shawna  32:56
Yeah. No, I think that's definitely a valid point. I mean, to break it down even further, there was like one woman that we spoke with, when she was talking about the different ethnicities under black, more so than just not being afraid of the political implications. She was actually like, Yeah, but then, what, what next? Because then what about even if you put Nigeria and there's like, tribes, right in that, like, that is even a group that can be broken down further. So how granular Do you get, you know, to, to have some sort of to make? I don't know, to have that kind of insight. So you're right, I think it would be interesting to have a larger sample size to compare the kinds of responses that we would get, and the reasoning behind it, because I did ask and why or why not? 

Shannon  33:50
Right, right. Something else that I was thinking of while we, you know, everyone's answer, like, gave me a new line of thought or a different perspective. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, that's true, too. One thing that it did make me think of, is when so right I am black and white. Okay, so I'm going to mark that I can break down my white side. And it would be polish and Irish. But I guess my fear is how are they going to skew that data? Or not so much skew but like it's represented different in everyone so I would say you know, 25%, Polish 25% Irish But okay, right. I'm 5050 black white. What if we get into the case of you, your kids, your children who are one quarter raise, so like, what are they supposed to do your do everything? Because I mean, sometimes you do know, right? In the future, what is it going to be black, white, right, or black way and then Irish polish, Italian, you know, what, how do we? You know, I don't know. I just think of how people are going to mark that.

Shawna  34:56
I don't I don't know. I really don't know and also people don't always know. Right? Like I, I mean, okay. Even before I took that those ancestry tests, I would have still just marked black. Right? Actually, actually, when I think about that, if they were to go to the the format, where they decided to ask us for our ethnicities to, I probably be calling my mom, like, I don't know shut up does. But it would be based on my narrative like, they wouldn't be right. Certainly factual, right. It would just be based on what I think. And then do you I mean, are people likely to mark a guess versus Mark? Nothing? Because they don't know for sure. So I don't know. I don't know. 

Shannon  35:45
Me either

Shawna  35:46
I mean, that would know, I'm just thinking about the changes in our demographic, which to be fair, we know about those changes because of things like the census, right. But then if suddenly that group, that category that is all other combinations, continues to grow and grow? Are we really learning anything from the information? I don't know. Like, do we really? Are we getting anything out of it? I know. It's a question for you at home. That's right, listeners. We want your opinions. What do you guys think? 

Shannon  36:15
And I'm torn. I mean, I feel like we've gotten a lot of more insightful information. Yeah, through today. And it's just something to like, think about, I'll think about it on my to our dress.

Shawna  36:28
Da Yes. Yeah, I know. It's a small sample. So who knows? I mean, there's so much more to consider. So yeah, write to us. Call us. Let us know what you think. We want to know your opinion. 

Shannon  36:42
And we can always come back to when the census actually comes out. 

Shawna  36:45
I mean, I think we should, right. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks, guys. 

Shannon  36:47
Thank you. 

Shawna  36:48
Shannon thank you for coming. Well, that's a wrap for this episode. Hope you found it as interesting as we did. It was really fascinating to get all that insight from folks in the DC area. I'd like to know what you think though. Give me a call at 202-670-3323 and leave me a voice message with your thoughts. I'd love to share them. In the meantime, while you're out there, guys. Be safe. Please share a smile with someone and find an opportunity to make someone feel welcome. love y'all Talk to you soon.