Identity Validity and Online Spaces - Interview with Rebecca Godard

Rebecca Godard is a graduate student at the University of British Columbia. She studies stigma and social support, particularly as it pertains to online communities and other forms of computer-mediated communication. In this episode she discusses the importance of her Chinese heritage, especially having spent some of her formative childhood years living in China. We talk about her experiences as a multiracial person who often passes as white, especially to white people.

Rebecca is in the process of working on her study and will soon need participants for a survey. Write to me at truecolors@shawnagann.com for more information. 

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Transcript

(Transcribed by Otter.ai)

Jason  00:06
Welcome to our True Colors hosted by Shawna Gann. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial, racial, and ethnic Enigma, and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.

Shawna  00:20
Hey, Jason, what's up?

Jason  00:22
Hellooooooo. Not much. Just hanging out.

Shawna  00:26
Yeah, me too. I guess. It's been pretty chill, enjoying my tiny, tiny little break from school. So it's funny how I try to like getting a million projects that I think I can do in this time off. And then yeah, no, you're only Yemen. No. I know. I think I just so look forward to it. It's been pretty cool, though. I mean, I like the flexibility of online classes, at least. So kind of kind of prepared me I suppose for this current situation of working. Almost always online.

Jason  01:00
Oh, yes. This is such a pain. Let me tell you.

Shawna  01:05
It's not been too bad. I guess. I think it depends on your work and what you're doing and if it's conducive to that, so about aside from work, do you? Do you have any sort of online connections like I have school and my my peers and my cohort from school and stuff?

Jason  01:23
Yeah. We many years ago, I met a friend who from Canada, gotten very, very close, very good friend of mine named Paul Paulo goes by Paulie. But a great guy.

Shawna  01:35
That's cool. I didn't even have like you. We didn't have much internet growing up. I think my first experiences really were when I was in college. So it's kind of crazy. What we can do now? Yes,

Jason  01:50
yes. Maybe it's made the world smaller, hasn't it? And it's why

Shawna  01:54
In a way it has, right? So, in fact, like in terms of making connections online, I remember chat rooms. Right. This is like I think that was even before cellphones were kind of mainstream primary ones. So Right. Well, you mentioned your friend Paul, from Canada. And that's really cool, because our guest today is from Canada.

Shawna  02:26
Yeah, her name is Rebecca. And she is studying how people kind of connect online in communities. But more more so not just for, you know, like for me for school or for work, like many of us are experiencing right now. Hashtag wfh.

Shawna  02:46
But it's more more about people reaching out to certain communities online to find this sense of belonging. Right. So if you are identifying a certain way, and you look for others who share that with you, or in a way to kind of get that validation and feel like you fit in and get some comfort from that,

Jason  03:12
I could definitely understand that. Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah,

Shawna  03:15
I think it's so easy these days to there's a million different platforms that allow that, right. But there's some stigma, I guess, around this in some areas. So she talked to me about her own personal experience being multiracial, and what that's like for her being white and Asian. But then also, this study sounds really interesting, too. So I hope you'll hang and check out her interview with me. 

Shawna  03:41
Yeah, check it out. All right. 

Shawna  03:47
Thank you so much for joining me on the show. You have such an interesting story. And I really love your perspective. We talked a little bit beforehand about your background and what that's meant for you. Could you tell our listeners a bit about yourself? 

Rebecca  04:01
Sure. Yeah. Thanks for having me on this. So my name is Rebecca Goddard. I'm a multiracial, Chinese and white Canadian person. And I think one of the things that makes my story unique is that I grew up kind of all over the world, mostly in Asia for the first 14 years of my life. So I had these experiences where I was a mixed Asian person, but also living in some of the places where my ancestors came from. And that has contributed a lot to what I do now, which is I'm a graduate student in psychology. And I study a lot of stigmatized identities that that includes military really shows them and I yeah, I really love getting to study some of the things that I've experienced and things that other multiracial people have experienced. 

Shawna  04:41
Yeah, and you specifically study this sort of phenomenon as it happens in online communities, right. 

Rebecca  04:48
 The primary focus of my research is technology and social support and social relationships. And I'm particularly interested in the ways that people with stigmatized identities or minority identity Youth engage in online community because I think that's often very different than people who are going online who don't necessarily have those minority or stigmatized identities.

Shawna  05:11
Right. So when we first talked, you told me a little bit about how your Chinese heritage is important to you, though, am I right? You lived in China for about six years. But you were younger, right? Yeah,

Rebecca  05:28
it's from when I was two until I was eight. 

Shawna  05:31
How does that play a part into how you embrace your Chinese heritage? Maybe once you know, you've gotten older? You talk about that a little bit?

Rebecca  05:39
For sure. So I think that one of the most formative experiences for me in regards to my Chinese heritage was my family actually got to go to the place where my grandfather was born. So my grandfather was born in Guangdong Province in southeastern China, which was quite close to where we lived in Schengen. And while we were there, we met some people who I suppose are relatives of some sort, although I don't know exactly how we're related. And just got to hear their stories of my great grandparents. And as my grandfather as a small child being there, I think, yeah, I was like, maybe five or six when that happened. And it was just very neat to be able to see that like tangible connection to my Chinese heritage. And I think that really stuck with me into into adulthood. And alright, I'm now 

Shawna  06:26
Okay. You talk to me a little bit about your mother and her heritage? Is she your mom is actually mixed? Is that right? 

Rebecca  06:34
She's also mixed. So, her mom is Caucasian Canadian. And her dad is Chinese. 

Shawna  06:40
Right. And so you said that you "pass" as white, even though you embrace this Chinese heritage? What's that like for you? Yeah,

Rebecca  06:49
I think passing is an interesting phenomenon, because it's not universal, right? So sometimes when I engage with people, it's obvious to them that I'm mixed. And other times, even if I tell somebody they don't really believe me, because all they see is like red hair, and pale skin. So I think, yeah, to the vast majority of especially white North Americans, I think I was classed as white. And that's always been an interesting experience, particularly since I kind of left home and went to university. Because as a kid, you know, everyone who knows, you knows your parents. And so everybody who knew me knew I was projecting because they could see my mom. But kind of moving into spaces where I was my own person. And where I was, like known just for myself, not really in connection with my parents, that was a bit of a challenge. And I think something I still struggle with, to some degree in terms of how do I be true to myself and to the racial identity and ethnic identity, I feel but also not necessarily being, like pushy about it, or like bringing it up in every conversation. I think that's, that's something that's a challenge for me. And for I think a lot of people who maybe don't always come across as mixed or as any ethnic identity that they feel.

Shawna  08:03
No, I think that's a really good point that you bring up. And I also think it's interesting. So I wouldn't typically say like, I asked you the question by saying, or by by using the word passing, but I tend to try to say things like how you would present, you know, typically, or how your features might come across to someone who would be trying to put you into some sort of category, but I purposefully use the word pass, because there is sort of a stigma attached to that as well. And considering your studies with stigma, I was wondering if we could talk about that a little bit. One thing that I think people struggle with, in addition to how to bring up their ethnic culture, their heritage, their ancestry, when they're really proud of that is how they reconcile knowing that there's this part of them that maybe people don't pick up on immediately, if it isn't brought up in conversation. And what I mean by that is, sometimes, I guess it depends on the party. But sometimes there's this feeling of, like you said, Am I being true to myself? Or do you have to present that way? Do you think it's okay to not bring that up? Or what is it that makes you feel compelled to share that? Is it pride? Or is it just you don't want to feel like you're getting away with thing? Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Rebecca  09:24
Yeah, I think in general, like if I have a relationship with somebody, I want them to know about my ethnic identity, because it's just important to me. But the thing that comes up I think I'd say a little bit more often, just in daily interactions is either I just offhand mentioned something related to like, Oh, I've cooked Chinese food or celebrating Chinese New Year's things like that. And then to like, I have to explain myself, or I'm wearing Chinese clothing or I have a jade necklace that was from my grandfather, and that's quite a typical Chinese thing to wear. So in that And sometimes I feel like I like to things I say might come across as weird to somebody who assumes that I'm monoracially white. And then the other thing that that happens sometimes is that people will say things that are racist or that are negative towards Chinese people, and that or Asian people more broadly. And that's always a dilemma for me is, do I say, like, Oh, I'm actually Asian? And does that communicate that you just shouldn't say those things in front of Asian people? And you made a mistake classifying me? Or do I say something more general as like, that's not an acceptable thing to say. So I think those are the two big, big areas that that it comes up just in kind of general interactions. 

Shawna  10:42
Got it. Well, I, I've heard that before, actually, especially what you said about people speaking maybe more freely than they would if they were in front of someone that they can readily identify? That is quite the conundrum there. Because you're like, well, on one hand, you don't want to reinforce that behavior by just saying like, Yo, I'm Asian. So like, don't do that. It's more about like, just don't do that. No, I can get that. How do you usually handle that? Have you had? Or does it seem to depend upon who you're talking to?

Rebecca  11:16
Yeah, it just, I haven't been very good at like, thinking responses through before it happened. So it's just kind of like whatever comes out at the moment, I just, I don't know, I'm not that confident in trying to intervene in a way that doesn't reference my own ethnicity. So that's something I'm trying to work on. But just how do you tell somebody like that's, that's not an acceptable thing to say? And not even just in relation to my own identity? But like, if people will say things that are prejudiced against other ethnic groups or other groups of people in other ways, how do I be an ally and step in? In those cases as well? Yeah,

Shawna  11:52
I read this book, actually part of a book club. It's called white fragility. Yeah, I really, yeah. Well, there were a lot of things that I liked about it. But one of the things I wanted to talk about was this experience I had in this book club. So we were talking about when it came to being more bystander isn't really the right word, but in a similar situation to what you mentioned, right? So like somebody's saying something inappropriate? How do you address this? Or do you address it? Or if so, when, and one of the things that came up was, or there seem to be a lot of agreement around, people said that for them, it is actually harder to talk to family members, or people who are close to them about those sorts of offenses, rather than somebody that they're just meeting or somebody that they know, I wonder what your thoughts are on that? Do you think it matters, the depth of that relationship as to how difficult it might be to bring something like that up?

Rebecca  12:48
Yeah, I think it can be more difficult. But you also have more time, like, if it's somebody you actually know and encounter on a regular basis, I think I would be more inclined to maybe not say much about anything in the moment, but really take the time to think about how to approach that situation and try to have a conversation at some later point. Whereas with if it's with a stranger with somebody, you don't see very often I kind of feel the obligation to say something in the moment because, like, who knows, if you'll get that opportunity again, it definitely is a degree of discomfort when it's somebody that's closer,

Shawna  13:24
I guess, because you're like, I'm gonna see them again, maybe that's you're worried about how that would go down. In terms of your study. I'm really, really interested in this and what you've discovered when it comes to these online communities and how a stick.

Rebecca  13:39
Yes, I just started my master's program, actually, in September. So I haven't really had results yet. But I'm working on my proposal for my master's thesis right now, which kind of broadly looks at building a model of how social support is provided through online groups. And the goal is to distribute a survey to members of one such group and kind of model the relationships between the perceived similarity of people in the group and these kinds of more psychological variables like belonging and satisfaction, support, and then even things like security of racial identity, and trying to find factors that influence those relationships,

Shawna  14:17
like how secure you are within yourself, and how that is affected, how it affects your relationships. Is that what you mean?

Rebecca  14:24
Yeah, so that would be more of an outcome variable. So it's like would participation for example, in a group, an online group related to multi racialism help people become more accepting and more secure in their own racial identities? You can extend that to other identities as well. Because I think a lot of groups are things people turn to if they're feeling maybe unsure about their identity or just, yeah, questioning it in some fashion and so possible that the social support that's provided through those groups is able to help people feel more at peace or secure in their identities. Mm. Yeah, one of the interesting things for me is how does internet based or computer based support differ for people with stigmatized identities versus without stigmatized identities. So a lot of the research up until now on communities has focused more on just the general population like our I think our day to day experiences, you know, that it can be quite different if you are looking for a specific type of support online. So if you have a specific identity, that maybe you don't know, people in your day to day, offline life, who share that identities, then the Internet can be a tremendous resource for receiving that the support that you really can't get out. Yeah,

Shawna  15:34
that kind of makes me think of that. It's like the opposite of when people use their anonymity for harm, you know, like people kind of hide behind anonymity online and say things that they feel like they're protected, because no one will know who's saying whatever they're saying. But in this case, you know, looking for that support because of who you are. Because who you want to be, or how you want to be in terms of your security within yourself, it's a much more positive. Positive,

Rebecca  16:04
a lot of the research on internet use has been quite negative, because it's focused on people kind of replacing in person social support with online support. And that is can have some pretty negative consequences. But there is a lot of research that shows that if you supplement your if you have in person support, but you also have online support that can be really positive. And I think my predicting anyway, so those effects will be there for people who are seeking a specific type of social support that they don't get in their day to day interactions. And I think you see that with a lot of like, if people have rare diseases, they often will turn to online support groups, because they just don't know anybody who has similar experiences to them. Or sometimes you'll find that people with LGBT identities who aren't ready yet to come out to people in their in prison networks will first buy support from people online. So there's, there's a lot of ties between different types of identities that all connect to the way that people with different identities can find support online. Oh, absolutely.

Shawna  17:01
I agree. And I applaud you for taking on this study. And congratulations for the start of your program. I mean, this whole idea is what is the premise behind the show, and that will trying to, you know, at least my goals for the show, or my objective is really kind of twofold. The first was born out of my own study, where I was looking at racial ambiguity in the workplace is specifically for women in leadership, or who are aspiring to leadership. And while I was doing my literature review, you know, reading tons and tons of articles and different types of literature to get my foundation and get all that background knowledge, I just realized how little there really was out there for people who are multiracial, or multicultural, even on one hand, but then more specifically, having some sort of platform where people can hear each other's experiences similar to yours and, and know what people are doing to learn about it. Like, like you are, you know, that was one piece, the other piece was really to sort of build this bridge between the studies that do exist, and the information that's out there that just doesn't really get to our mainstream communities. You know, there's a lot of things that aren't accessible to just every person who would who wants to know that they're not alone, and have that sense of belonging and community and being validated and knowing like, Okay, what I'm feeling or experiencing is not just me, other people are gonna get me that kind of thing. So yeah, for sure.

Rebecca  18:31
I think a lot of people don't necessarily know, was multiracial. People don't necessarily have other multiracial people in their, like friendship networks. So that can be so valuable. Yeah,

Shawna  18:41
I hope so. What's sort of going for but the other piece of it is, is just saying you're multiracial isn't not every multiracial person is the same, you know, so like, there's still going to be these variances, but definitely some common threads there too. It's pretty interesting and exciting when you know, someone else can share in these things. But having studies like yours, or like those that are out there also can lead to solutions, not just feeling sad about that experiences. But yours is a story that I really love. Because you not only are exploring these things academically, but you're so excited to share your heritage that you don't even know how to deal with that bombarding people. You're like, I just want to tell you all about me. And my background and this really awesome culture that I have. So I think that's really great. Yeah, for sure. I was wondering, I mean, I guess you were pretty little but maybe you were old enough that you have some memories. Do you find that there's some difference between your experiences in terms of how people react with you You in North America versus when you were in China, like, for example, here, you said in North America, people kind of just see you as mono racially white, you know, they see the your hair color and your complexion and so on. But what about in China? Do you have any memories? Yeah,

Rebecca  20:20
I think in China, it was pretty obvious to everyone that I was mixed. I don't exactly know why that would be different there. But even Yeah, even people who hadn't seen my parents would would be able to recognize and I think in a lot of places that in East Asia, especially there's this real, sometimes problematic kind of glorification of mixed children, especially and mixed like Chinese and white children. And so, yeah, looking back is quite interesting, because there is this idealization of white beauty standards. And I think that kids who are mixed with, you know, the local ethnic group, whatever that is, and Caucasian people are often seen as, as more attractive or as more Yeah, I don't quite know how to say it. But it has been interesting, like, realizing that and looking back at some of the ways that people would interact with me as a young child.

Shawna  21:14
Yeah, I was. I mean, I don't know, I haven't, you know, have that experience myself. So I was just curious what the differences would be like and how it compares there versus here. Yeah. Has your has your mom ever talked about any of her experiences? Yeah.

Rebecca  21:32
So she looks much, much more, obviously, Chinese than I do. And actually, when we lived in China, people would often assume that she was fully, fully Chinese and would just speak to her and Mandarin and expect her to understand that that was an interesting experience, and that they would think she was an ethnic minority within China, just because she looks a bit off if you're expecting a full Chinese, like Chinese person. So she had some interesting experiences there, because there is quite a bit of inter ethnic prejudice, as well. But I think, yeah, growing up in Canada, looking, passing quite a bit. I think, as a Chinese, she definitely had more experiences with like, direct racism and discrimination than I did. But I think maybe a little bit less of the Yeah, she did, I don't think experience as much as like people, assuming she was white and talking to her and maybe saying things that they think are appropriate for other white people.

Shawna  22:29
Rebecca, you mentioned a relative that just kind of came into your life, or to your family's lives. A long lost brother, can you tell that story?

Rebecca  22:42
Yeah, for sure. So my mom found out last year that she has a brother that she never knew about. He's a full brother. And he was born when my grandparents were very young and not married. And we're an interracial couple in a time where that was. It wasn't illegal in Canada ever, but it was certainly not socially acceptable. So he was given up for adoption and grew up in this wonderful also very mixed adoptive family. He has three siblings who are indigenous and his parents are Scottish Canadian. So yeah, just about I guess it's coming up on two years ago, through some legal cases that changed restrictions on adoption records, he was able to find us and been really great getting to know him. And I think it's opened up a lot to me of of my family's heritage, just because he doesn't know anything. So we were able to talk to relatives more and try to get him kind of the story on his biological parents. And also, another interesting thing that happens is he also has mixed kids who are the same ethnicity as me. So they're three quarters white and one quarter Chinese. And so the six of us total that share the same ethnic background, but have quite different phenotypes. And so even this Christmas, we were all sitting around talking about, yeah, just our experiences being multiracial, and how people read us and it was, it's been very neat to have more family members who kind of have had similar experiences.

Shawna  24:06
Yeah, that must be really interesting to be able to share that with him. I'm sure he's drinking that all in the culture and, and learning more, and even for his children. That's pretty cool.

Rebecca  24:18
My cousin first started talking to her, she made the comment that she'd never had anyone who looked like her in her life. And that was so neat to be able to define that. I think not just from an adoption perspective, but also from a race and ethnicity perspective. Just yeah, there's something special about about finding people who look like you.

Shawna  24:38
Oh, my God, I know you said that. And I just got this, this feeling because it can be so lonely. I mean, it's so silly to say maybe, I don't know, but it can feel really lonely. When you feel like there isn't any like, you know, it's just me. Yeah. You know, and then to have that, this is gonna sound okay. It's really fun. Any but not that everybody looked like me or like my family members. But there are some European cities that are so very diverse, you know, they're very international people come from everywhere, for whatever reasons that they're there that flood some of these European cities. But there are places that are just pretty homogenous, and came from Prague not too long ago, having lived there for two years. And it's beautiful. And I made some fantastic friends, like local friends, my Czech friends, and so on. But in general, if you I didn't have social support or social network there, if you could feel so alone. I mean, I guess anyone would write without a social network. But I guess what I'm trying to say is being a person of color in a country that just has so few people of color, like it's, you know, you really feel like okay, I really stand out here. There are, you know, some groups, unfortunately, like, Well, I mean, it depends on where you are, there are a couple of groups, depending on which country or which city that they face a lot more discrimination than I did. Although I did get lots of funny looks and stares and people maybe weren't as nice or warm to me not that's an eye some people would say it's normal to to encounter some closeness when you're a stranger. But also there are other places that I've lived that were feeling a little bit more welcoming. In sometimes I used to wonder if it was in my head, like, maybe it's just me feeling self conscious or whatever, because I tend to do that. But when we got back to the US, it was a breath of fresh air to just be in a city with all kinds of people again. Yeah, I mean, it makes a difference. It can feel so isolating when people don't look like you or share your cultures at all. Or like I said, it's not even quite like your cousin situation. Like for me, it wasn't really even about being back here. And seeing people that looked like me, it was just being back here and seeing all kinds of people. 

Shawna  27:04
You know, here because I live in Kelowna, which is probably 90%, white, kind of smaller city, but I'm four hours from Vancouver. So I get to go there a couple times a year. And it's always just like a breath of fresh air. It's like, oh, there's actual dimsum. And there's like, just, yeah, all of these things that you just don't find in a more homogenous place. Yeah, yeah, about people maybe not being as warm towards you that I as an undergraduate work in a psychology lab, in which I wasn't involved in these studies. But previously, the lab had been research on exactly that on the interpersonal aspects of discrimination. And so the I don't think they ever did, it was raised, but with identities, like LGBT identities, or pregnancy, or obesity, they would send people into stores, and they would have these like audio recorders in them. And they've measured the length of the interaction, the number of words spoken the warmth and friendliness that people either tried to apply for jobs, you're trying to purchase things. And we did find that there was substantial difference in the way people were treated based on if they had a stigmatized identity or not. I think that's, that's definitely a very real and not not in your head, it does happen in it, especially when it happens over and over, it can have quite a substantial effect.

Shawna  28:17
Wow. Okay, I really want to find that study,

Rebecca  28:20
making people choose the no one from Rice University. Okay,

Shawna  28:24
I'm totally looking that up. I really wanted to kind of study this, but it was, I was like, I would need like a third person, that would be the observer. So I wouldn't be too subjective. But I just wanted to find out because I'm like, okay, totally, I feel like I'm treated differently,

Rebecca  28:39
You could definitely do it with wigs, because the real strength of the original study was it was the same person. So they weren't any different. They were wearing hats. In the very first iteration of the city, they were hot. So Dieter said gay and proud or taxmen bras, and to the person themselves didn't actually know which had they were wearing, which might be more difficult to do with wigs. But one of the strengths was that it wasn't the person themselves believing that they were going to be treated worse or somehow. Yeah, just being like, if you had two different people, it would be harder to make claims that it was one thing that caused the difference in results, but I think you could have some similar iteration of it.

Shawna  29:15
Yeah, have to think through that. That's really clever, too. That's really smart to do the hats where the person isn't aware of what they're wearing is just okay. 

Shawna  29:25
Um, yeah, it was double blind, which is, which is really hard to do in studies of stigma, because there is evidence that people who believe they have a stigmatized identity will behave differently. So it's always that question of are the results you're getting? Because Are they are they stemming from the targets? Is the person with stigmatized identities behavior, or are they stemming from the procedures behavior? That's a really tricky thing to kind of tease apart.

Shawna  29:51
Have you already started to design your study in terms of how you're going to measure this sense of security or

Rebecca  29:59
So it's going to be...an online survey that will ask people to like self report various aspects of things. But I'm also doing a different study at the moment that is more observational looking at a Facebook group for people with a chronic health condition. So I think the two of them together will be able to get kind of two different sources of information of what people are actually doing in these groups, but also how they report feeling as a user.

Shawna  30:22
I just thank you so much for your time today, really looking forward to when your study is complete, and you've got your results. It'll mean a lot for people who are looking for that sense of belonging and that security and like my listeners, you know, so that we get some insight there and not just going on our hunches.

Rebecca  30:43
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thanks for doing this. Thanks for doing research and liking the podcast and all this neat stuff.

Shawna  30:52
Well, thank you. That's it for this episode. Thank you so much for hanging out and listening to Rebecca's story. If you have something interesting to share, or if there's a topic that you'd like covered, reach out to me at true colors cast.com where you can find my contact information. You can find me on Facebook, too, if you'd like to send a message that way. I'm also doing a call out for ratings and reviews. I know it takes a bit of time, but I do so appreciate it because I'd love for others to join the conversations too. If you haven't, please subscribe. I never want you to miss an episode. In the meantime, be safe out there y'all. Share smile with someone and remember to find an opportunity to make someone feel welcome. Love y'all. Talk to you soon.