Intersecting Communities: BLM and Pride

This week we take a look at how two marginalized communities come together at an intersection. I have this discussion with my guest this week, my son Christian Gann. Together we discuss his experiences being multiracial, what it's like being a member of the black community and the LGBT community, and the challenges that come with it.

Be sure to listen all the way through to check out new music by Kidd and Queen with the release "Weight on Me".

Below I have listed lots of resources for topics references in the episode.

Intersection of LGBT Pride and Black Live Matter

• https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/07/us/lgbtq-pride-month-events-in-solidarity-with-black-lives-matter-trnd/index.html

Trans Women of Color

• https://www.glaad.org/amp/beginner-guide-transweek-2018

Justice for Tony McDade

• https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/05/tony-mcdade-tallahassee-florida-police-shooting-death/

Racial Discrimination in Dating Apps

• https://theconversation.com/grindr-is-deleting-its-ethnicity-filter-but-racism-is-still-rife-in-online-dating-140077
• https://www.forbes.com/sites/abrambrown/2020/06/02/race-protests-are-forcing-dating-apps-to-reconsider-the-value-of-their-ethnicity-filters/#6afa403f768f
• https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/sep/29/wltm-colour-blind-dating-app-racial-discrimination-grindr-tinder-algorithm-racism

LGBT Body Type Names

• https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/gay-culture-twink-grindr-body-image-eating-disorders-a8360001.html
• https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51270317

If this is your first time with OTC, check out EPISODE 1: START HERE for more background on the show. Continue the conversation on Instagram and find Season 5 episodes on YouTube.

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Transcript

Jason  0:06  
Welcome to our True Colors hosted by Sean again. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial, racial, and ethnic enigma and the cultural conundrum. Let's dive in.

Christian  0:23  
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of our true colors. I'm always happy to have you here. Thank you so much for joining me. 2020 has got a lot packed into it. We're not even halfway through the year. And we have experienced so much. At the moment, we are witnessing the RE ignition of the Black Lives Matter movement. And it's also pride month. This episode focuses on the intersectionality of being a person of color, specifically a black person of color. And being part of the LGBT community. Throw on top of that a little of this little of that some extra layers such as what it means to be part of the military community, or other aspects of your identity. Intersectionality focuses on the impact on individuals or groups who are part of marginalized communities where they intersect. For example, being part of the black community, it makes one a marginalized member of society and so does being part of the LGBT community. This episode is a bit personal, because I'm going to have this conversation with my son Christian. The conversation doesn't stop there, though. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Please write to me. Let me know what you think. Let me know if there's other topics you'd like to cover. What's on your mind? For now? Sit back and enjoy the conversation. But thanks for hanging out.

Christian  1:50  
Hey, Ken, hey, thank you for doing this with me. 

Christian  1:53  
Of course. Thank you so much for inviting me to do it. Well, we've been talking about it. Yeah. I mean, there's lots going on, lots to talk about. So.

Christian  2:02  
Yeah. But I mean, I talked about you guys on the show a bit. But this is the first time that we're coming together kind of in this way. 

Christian  2:11  
It's definitely like a different format. But I feel like it'll also be sort of enlightening for us both. Just delving into the topics a little bit deeper.

Christian  2:21  
Yeah. The thing is, I have talked about the things that you've said to me, but then sometimes we have conversations and I bring it up to you, you're like, well, maybe I don't really see it quite that way. So it's good to have sort of the firsthand. Yeah, definitely. Right. So the whole idea of the show is to talk about what it is to be racially ambiguous. And I mean, there's lots of ways to interpret racial ambiguity, right? So like, for me, most of me is black, according to 23andme. And Ancestry DNA, like there's all kinds of other stuff in there. But I pretty much identify just as a black woman. How do most people see you?

Speaker 1  3:01  
So, just about everybody sees me as white, I feel like, it's kind of just how I'm presented and how I've kind of presented myself as well, like, there's no arguing with my skin color that I am white. But there's always been some, like, dissonance within me about how I identify ethnically. And so that's always been something that's been difficult to talk about with people because it's sort of been like a fun fact type thing. Like, oh, well, I look white. But guess what I also and then I've always said that I'm half black when I'm biracial, because growing up and never seen you as anything other than black. And even though you have a lighter complexion, I've never seen a difference between your blackness versus somebody else's blackness. Just because you would just say I'm black. And so I think it wasn't until like, these past few years that you started to dive in more to your multiculturalism and your multi ethnic background and sort of learned more about what you're made of, but still, even to this day, I've always seen you as black, I've always seen you as my black mom, and I have my white dad, and that's what makes me biracial and it's really confusing to some people because I have fewer biracial features if you can say that then like other biracial kids just because I do have a much fairer skin like I look like a white person and I've always joked Well, you know, it's in my hair for example, because my hair has been more difficult than most white kids but like, when you look at it, it doesn't seem that way so

Christian  4:48  
difficult to hold on names gonna be fighting words, but to me it's difficult.

Speaker 1  4:52  
It's just like I it's much coarser and thicker and when I've Been with other white friends, I've always like sort of envied their hair, how it's a bit thinner, you can run your fingers through it comfortably and like you can brush it and it like goes in the direction that they want it to. So like hair envy has been like a little part of it just because I like my hair, but it's not, it's not the same. So it's hard looking like a white kid, but then not feeling like I have white features, or traditional white features, I don't know, or what someone thinks of when I think of white, right, you know, and there's just so many layers that like, I've unpacked growing up, like, especially since growing up, I think I've always sort of been closer to you, or we've talked more, and in that I've really adopted a lot of your mannerisms. And a lot, I've learned a lot about your culture, you know, growing up. And so bringing that into, you know, my world and people are like, well, where'd you get that from? Or why do you talk like that? Or why do you listen to this kind of music? It's always been sort of confusing as like, well, because my mom raised me on that, you know,

Christian  6:09  
yeah. But what's interesting about your experiences is that you've carried that with you, but in all of the different places we've lived,

Speaker 1  6:20  
right, which makes the situation even more confusing, because with the upbringing that I've had, where I've grown up all around the world, so not only have I had sort of the, the bicultural childhood, just at home, but I've also had a multicultural childhood just for being in all these different places. And that's sort of it makes my identity even more difficult to label, or to explain to somebody, because I've taken a piece of every place that I've been with me. And so I'm just a combination of all those places. So, hello, Third Culture, right?

Christian  7:03  
That's pretty much what that is,

Speaker 1  7:04  
oh, my God. And I don't think many people understand what that's like. Like, even within the military community where there's other third culture kids, I feel like my experience has also been rather unique, because unlike most families, we had the opportunity to stay in places longer, or go to more foreign areas, like instead of living on a military base, right.

Christian  7:27  
So that's the thing is for listeners, we have lived overseas, like many military families do, but we've never lived on base. While there is one exception, but you were so little that you wouldn't remember probably much of it. Other than that we've lived in like when we lived in Italy, we lived in an Italian neighborhood. And same with Germany, we lived in a German neighborhood we've never lived on, or at least that you probably remember on a base or a military installation. The

Speaker 1  7:56  
only one that we did was in Seoul, but even so that didn't feel about that even you're right, we did feel like it because we were in the dead center of the city. So as soon as you stepped out, you weren't in Seoul, and I was, you know, hanging out with friends off base all the time. So I always felt like I was living my days. They're out in the city, not on the installation. Yeah, that's true.

Christian  8:20  
Plus, much of the Korean culture was like, in the base wasn't like it was just a set apart from everything. But here's what's interesting is in all of the places that I can think of except for one, you went to an American school. And then the one that's the exception was a bicultural, bilingual, American or German school. So, but you have had some experience of American school actually, in the US. Yeah, what is it? What were the differences for you living abroad and going to American School, versus living at home in terms of living at home, versus going to an American school actually in the US with regard to your identity in terms of your ethnicity?

Speaker 1  9:06  
So definitely, I think it was the most glaring when I when we moved from Korea to the states that I've had my senior year, in an American school in the States, what do you mean by most glaring? So the the example that I'm going to give happened in a class where this sort of question got brought up a lot because it was a small class, it was my Geosystems class. I've told you all about it. It was just a very fascinating group of people. And I don't think anyone really held back and what they wanted to ask or what they had to talk about, so it was just sort of an interesting dynamic in there. I very distinctly remember one of the black students in there, overhearing a conversation that I was having with my friend where I was explaining to my friend and the teacher of the class that I was biracial. And the teacher was dumbfounded. She was like, I can't see that. That's crazy. And like she refused to believe it. And the black student that overheard just asked out of the blue. How do I know that you're black enough? And I said, Well, I didn't say that I was black. I said that I was biracial.

Christian  10:13  
Okay, that was the first thing I thought it was like interesting, because you can be biracial. Without one of those races being black.

Speaker 1  10:19  
He wanted to prove that I did have a black side to me. Interesting. And then everyone wanted to tune in, they were like, Well, what was his black experience, like, and I was like, my black experience, and then have, like an outstanding black experience. It was just, I have a black mom and a white dad. And so I was really thrown off because the teacher was like, this is an inappropriate question. And then the black student was like, no, no, we need to know what, you know what it was like? The first question that he asked me was, when you got in trouble. What did you get spanked with?

Unknown Speaker  10:57  
Like, that was his first question.

Christian  11:00  
And what is the correct answer to that question? Well,

Speaker 1  11:02  
I don't know. I mean, to be honest, I didn't really get spanked but so I didn't know how to answer. He was like

Speaker 1  11:17  
okay, it's kind of like ridiculous thinking back on it. But I just do

Christian  11:22  
funny that that was the that was the litmus test. Where did you get spanked? Well, he said, he probably said, I didn't get spanked. And he's like, Okay, you didn't have the second would be Yeah,

Speaker 1  11:35  
right. That's hilarious. Yeah. So that's what he asked. And like, there was nothing about like, traditional stereotypes like, or seemingly like offensive stereotypes about growing up black. Like, while everybody else was growing up watching. I don't know Goonies we were being introduced to the last dragon. Things like that, where, where I talked about those movies, for example. That's just one other thing that I grew up watching. And all my white friends are like, what? Yeah, what is that? So many of them didn't even know that there was The Wiz Yeah, most people don't. And I don't I remember watching The Wiz first before watching the Wizard of Oz. Like, and I watched the with so many times set, The Wizard of Oz seems like the spin off. Interesting. So it was just weird, because like there was this discourse in my head like, well, you know, you've been raised with these little cultural tidbits, and you've grown up in these multicultural areas, right? So the ultimate question like, What are you like saying is saying I'm biracial enough? I've never felt comfortable saying that I'm multi ethnic, because I'm not, I don't see it that way, necessarily. I've always just seen black and white, I've definitely identified with saying I'm multicultural because of how I grew up. But most people just want to know about the black and white part, they don't really want to dive in to the different cultures, they just kind of want to know. Like, how are you half black? And how are you have white? Right? So?

Christian  13:20  
So my question, I never asked you this before? And I think sometimes the answer changes, and I think that's possible for everybody. Because how you identify is usually based on a lot of things. It's contextual. If you had to fill out a form and check a box or boxes, what would you do?

Speaker 1  13:37  
So on a lot of forms, actually, because I've had assigned quite a few. There's always, you know, white and African American or black and Latina X, I always check the two or more races. Yeah.

Christian  13:52  
So you do identify that way? Yeah. Because one time I asked you, and you said you pretty much just identified as being white. You know, you're like, I just don't see myself as white. But then when I pressed you a little bit more about it, because I was curious. It sounded to me like it was because it was just easier than having to explain that is true.

Speaker 1  14:12  
If I'm not trying to get to know someone as well, or if it's ever something that comes up in a topic, and I don't want to dive into the details, I do just say, you know, I'm just white, like, I look white,

Christian  14:25  
or you let them assume, right? Because if you just make assumptions,

Speaker 1  14:29  
I don't think anyone has ever upon first glance questioned my racial identity. So that's why it's always sort of been like a let me let you into my life a little bit more by telling you that I'm biracial. Because somehow opening that box is like Pandora's box like all the questions start flying at you and they're like, well, that doesn't make sense or what parts of you are black as if like hearts. Well, this finger right this is like I don't feel like a biracial Frankenstein, where like parts of me are white and parts of You're black. It's just sort of like, it's in me. And mostly it's me culturally, because I do feel like there is a distinct culture that you've raised me with. And that dad's raised me with your families a different way than dad's family. And so when I've, you know, visited them and seen both sides, and that's also another thing is because we didn't grow up around them, I just had you and dad, when I would go and see our extended family. I didn't feel like connected to one or the other more, I felt like they were both a part of me like that's, that's my family on my mom's side. And that's my family on my dad's side. And it wasn't that I didn't see color in that sense, because I definitely did. I just felt like I identified with both. But I don't look like I would identify with both. And I think that's what confuses people.

Christian  15:50  
Yeah, I mean, I guess I can understand that. Because, okay, for me, it is complicated, right? Because I don't present as a white person. And by present, I mean, it's how I look not like how I portray myself. I don't portray myself any one way. But I present very, ambiguously, people can't figure it out. Because I have the darker skin. But it's not quite Brown. I have coarser hair, but it's not really course. My features don't jive with anyone's one idea of any particular race. And you're right, it is, it is a bit of a different experience for you, because we lived overseas most of your life, which meant not as much time with either side of your family, as probably other kids get to spend with their extended family. I know that you've talked to me before about when you try to have the discussion about your black mob, and then people see the picture of me and they don't believe you.

Speaker 1  16:42  
Yes. That's that's another thing is, like I said earlier, I've never doubted your blackness. I never saw that. Just because you were you had lighter skin than other black people that that meant that you were less black. That's a new concept that I've been introduced to by you. When you Yeah, so when you introduced the concept of colors, and it was? Yeah, that is what blew my mind. Because I was like, growing up. I've never seen you like, any less black than I would see another black person. So when I show people pictures of you like yeah, this is my mom, and this is my dad. They were like, well, she doesn't look black. Like but she is like so it's always sort of upset me because I'm like, How can you not see like that she's a black woman, like she's clearly not a white woman. And so what you've gotten, or is what they've assumed, like, well as she like, Puerto Rican or Latina. Like, there must be something else, you will think that I'm black white mix, right? They'll think you're biracial. If she's biracial, then you can't be and I'm like, but No, she's not. Yeah. And then, of course, I have to show the picture of our extended family. I'm like, look like I'm proving to you that, you know, that's the rest of my family. And yes, they have like, darker skin, but not all of them, as you can see, like, it's just in the family. And then they're like, Okay, now I believe you. That's always been the hardest thing is that I've had to prove your blackness to prove my identity.

Christian  18:20  
Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I guess, if you wanted to get like technical and scientific about it, I am truly multiracial. And that's just because of my creole side, right, which is natural, it Creole is a multiracial ethnic group right. In itself. So yeah, technically, I'm mixed. But it's like, so mixed with things. It's not biracial, and even within, you know, Creole, and Creole is hard to describe anyway, because also, it's associated with a culture, not just an ethnic group. But that does account for some of my features. But like you said, you know, it's weird to have to try to prove to people and we shouldn't really even have to, but some, and I choose to have that conversation with some people and others. I don't know. Yeah. But yeah, I just wanted to know what it's been like for you and how you identify in terms of that. Yeah,

Speaker 1  19:18  
I think to this day, and probably going forward, I will always identify as biracial. I just, I know that I present white, I know that I cannot identify with the struggle of someone that is darker than me. So that's always something that I've been aware of too. But that doesn't mean that I can discount that part of who I am. Because it's in my culture. It's in how I was raised and how I connect to other people of color as well. You know, as well as I do that. A majority of my friends growing up were always people of color, people of color, and typically women of color. So it's like it Never felt disconnected from them just because of my skin color because we also had the cultural aspects that we bonded on. So, yeah, it's definitely been like I'm being tugged back and forth between two identities that because of how I look and how I grew up.

Christian  20:22  
Can I ask you what your thoughts or your feelings are in the current climate with the Black Lives Matter movement reemerging? And at a much stronger level? What's that been like for you kind of witnessing what's happening right now.

Speaker 1  20:39  
So I will say that the first time that black lives matter really came into prominence, I didn't feel like I could identify it with at all, I didn't feel like I would have anything worthy to say, because it was not my experience. And that was their battle. That truthfully, that was how I thought, this time around, I have been so adamant about how I feel about the Black Lives Matter movement and how important it is, and how that's my family, too. I think having come back to the States, and sort of, over the last few years, being able to talk with family members on your side more, and just gaining new friendships as well of people of color. It's sort of solidified in me, that side of me like I couldn't just cast that away, like, well, I'm saying that I'm biracial. So it's in me. And even though I don't struggle, like them, I will fight for these people like i It is my struggle. It's I've been so incredibly emotional about everything, not just because of the deaths that have sort of retriggered the movement, not sort of they did reinvigorate the movement. It's not just because of that, I think, overall, I'm seeing like a collective fear in my friends. And in my family, I see it from their posts or from messages. And I remember how scared all my friends were during the 2016 election, where every day, they felt like someone was going to attack them in the parking lot. And I felt like there was nothing that I could do to protect them. And I feel like over time, it's sort of been pent up and me, and I cannot be silent about it. So all the time, I'm writing something putting that on social media, sharing posts of women of color that are contributing to this and doing every single possible thing that I can to support this movement.

Christian  22:40  
I mean, absolutely, I'm the same way, right? I mean, that's part of the reason why I do what I do. But when I listened to my friends and colleagues and other family members talk about, you know, having to have a conversation with their sons about what to do when you're pulled over, not if you're pulled over, and how to protect yourself and things like that. That's a conversation that I've never had to have with you as parent, you know, and then I feel so just disgusted that that's the way it's had to be. I have had so many feelings. I mean, it's just feelings of rage and sadness and exhaustion. And it's been incredulous to me that, even with things being more in our faces, due to everyone having, you know, cameras in their pockets, basically, that people are still closing their eyes to it, or still feeling like it's not my problem. So there isn't a problem or justifying it like, well, that's where the crime is. I just get so angry. Me too. It's a much deeper problem that manifests itself through police brutality, among other things. And so, yeah, for me, this whole situation has been Yes, it's been about George Floyd and, and ahmaud arbery and Breanna Taylor and, you know, Tamir Rice, and all the other people who have fallen victim to this, but it's also about so much more. And yeah, I just wanted to ask you, from your perspective, what that was like for you?

Speaker 1  24:15  
Yeah, I, I think it's always been looking through the window for me. But the cool thing is that I have such a deep love for, you know, my friends and family. And they, without hesitation will show me when there is an injustice or when there's something wrong that I otherwise might not have seen. And I feel like now I'm more sensitive to these things. And so I'm able to look at things a little bit more clearly. One example that came into my head actually was 10th grade in my geometry class. Our teacher was about 90 years old, old white man. And I've very much remember that there was one kid that acted up and he was a black Boy. And in that moment, the teacher sent all of the black kids to the back of the classroom. Yes, this happened.

Christian  25:07  
Sorry, you guys want to see the face that I just made?

Speaker 1  25:10  
Yeah, yes. And how did that directive even go? He just said, you all cause trouble, go to the back of the class and keep quiet for the rest

Christian  25:19  
of the period. And he pointed to kids and made them vote yes.

Speaker 1  25:24  
And I remember him saying, like, as we're getting ready to leave to our next class, he said, you're kind of always causes trouble. This was like happening in my school. But I didn't like understand like, I was like

Christian  25:37  
this. If you'd have told me that I know.

Speaker 1  25:39  
I know. I know, I know, that would have upset

Christian  25:42  
here, like, How did I not know this? Yeah. In a second.

Speaker 1  25:47  
It's always been something that I've been I've sort of held in the back of my head, like that happened in my school. Like everyone thinks that, you know, that doesn't happen in my neighborhood. That doesn't happen in my school or my workplace. Those was

Christian  26:00  
a military community. And I wanted the community that's supposed to be I mean, they are typically very diverse. And, you know, in some ways, progressive, not always, but we it's military culture, or at least where the families are. We are used to having diverse populations and, and such. But

Speaker 1  26:26  
even so I always felt like there was a separation. Like there was a separation between like officers versus enlisted, like that was always like, Yeah, that's right. That's something completely different. But there was also who were the enlisted kids, like the kids of the officers in the military tended to be white. And the kids of the enlisted military members tended to be black. Like, this is something I think everyone was pretty much aware of. Yeah,

Christian  26:55  
I never even thought about kids everything. Well, rank and stuff. Rank

Speaker 1  26:59  
came into play and how kids treated each other to really Yeah, it was just like, my dad's this rank. Your dad is this rank. So we're not the same. It was subtle. And I mean, I got teased because like, my dad was working for the embassy. So I got called preppy. And my color came into place. Because of that. They were like, well, yeah, your dad is white, and you're white. And he works for the State Department. And y'all live in a gated community within an installation. So you think you're

Christian  27:37  
all that? I learned a lot, y'all. I never knew all this. So that's how

Speaker 1  27:41  
I got treated. And I never, like, considered it bullying because like, I was like, well, that's just my situation, like, it is not my fault. Or it's all about assignment and tour. And like, that's just the situation that I happen to be placed in. But they saw it as like, well, you think you're better than us, because your dad works for the State Department. And our dads and moms are in the army, which was seen as lower within my school where the Marines were even lower than the army. I

Christian  28:12  
did not think that kids racked and stacked each other based on their parents employment or branch of service. Interesting. Yeah. Even though your dad is in the Air Force.

Speaker 1  28:24  
That was that was like another layer. Oh, your dad's in the Air Force and the State Department. Wow, you think that you're on the top. But I never said that I was on the top. Like

Christian  28:33  
that, you know, that's funny. I'm listening to you say this. And that that was the thing when I was growing up, it had nothing to do with, you know, what my my parents did or anything was about how I looked. And people would constantly tell me what I thought about myself. You think you're cute? You think you're this? You think you're why you talk white all of this stuff? And I'm like, Well, I don't know. I don't think that at all. But it was like a way to distance me from them maybe? Or maybe it was like a defense because privileges exist. So probably there was an assumption that I would enjoy certain privileges based on how I looked, which is that gets back into colorism. Definitely I have privileges because of the way our society is. And I wish it weren't that way. I can't change who I am just like you couldn't change your father's employment or whatever. But, you know, I do try to have conversations with people who've like look, I It has nothing to do with what I look like how I see myself, or what I think about myself isn't about what I look like and I certainly don't think that I am better or worse than anyone else. I'm just am who I am. And yeah, we can be different or we can have things in common. But it has nothing to do with what I look like, you know or or in your case, your father's employment.

Speaker 1  30:02  
I mean, that was just one layer. But that's just all things that have sort of piled up in my life of like, not experiencing racism directly, but kind of being collateral because of, well, that's who you hang out with. That doesn't make sense because of who you are. And you say you're biracial, but you look white. So like, you know, get where you're coming from. It's just, it was never easy to place myself, because everyone else wanted to place me, right.

Christian  30:41  
So you talked about these things that overlap, and that kind of gets into intersectionality. And, you know, the whole concept of intersectionality is basically, when you have things about you, that would place you in a marginalized group for one thing or another. And that could be gender, it could be race, it could be culture, sometimes language, and sexuality, all sorts of things. And so, you know, it's Pride Month, and we're looking at with the Black Lives Matter movement kind of reemerging. So it makes me think of how we have set aside all these months for certain things to acknowledge or celebrate, like, March is Women's History Month, and February is Black History Month, and, and so on. And you know, as a teacher, we would always, particularly in elementary school, celebrate, based on you know, what the month was it because it's part of, you know, social studies. But it always bothered me that why do we have to do it at a certain month, right, like, people are around all year, and it drags and sweet. I mean, I get it, because it's the time to highlight it, right. But I don't think that people come in seasons. So I don't think that we need to highlight these things in seasons. But you know, I understand why it is it just always kind of bothered me. That being said, it is now Pride Month. And simultaneously, we're looking at what's happening around us with Black Lives Matter kind of reemerging. And it's like, well, you don't want to take away from Pride Month by focusing on this other issue. But also, while both groups have been oppressed in one way or another, there is a difference between the black community and that level of oppression, because of the history of slavery, and what's happened with the LGBT plus community. But saying that I am not at all diminishing the pain. Does that make sense? That

Speaker 1  32:48  
completely makes sense. I'm trying, the biggest comparison that I can say, for those two kinds of oppression is that I think the black community has faced systemic oppression. And I feel like the LGBT community has faced a ratio, I feel like society has, it's made it so that the black community can be discriminated against on the surface. And even deep below, like the roots are all there. And the LGBT community, society has tried to make it so they don't even exist. So it's two different kinds, and they're not on the same level because of how they're both approached. I

Christian  33:32  
think that's true. And I think the other thing is, you know, like, someone like you, you're white passing, I'm not white passing, but I'm light. But then there's people who, when you look at them, they present as a black person or an African American, I like to say black person, but yeah, right. So they can't really cover that, right. Like, there's no, there's no hiding that. Whereas if you're part of the queer community, like you don't have to disclose that you can probably if you choose to get by without making that known, whereas a person who is visibly, you know, presenting as a black person, they can't really hide that. So there's also that kind of level. But I wanted to talk about this with you, because you are part of the LGBT community. And I know that you look at these things through both lenses of being a person of black community, or at least a person of color, and of the LGBT community. Definitely.

Speaker 1  34:36  
They are completely different worlds. And I'm definitely a lot more involved in the LGBT community than I am with the black community. Just because I'm white passing it's really hard for me to be more involved. I just can't see it the same way as actual people of color who experience it firsthand. I talking

Christian  34:56  
about weight meant to be clear. You mean how who experience interest action of these two things.

Speaker 1  35:01  
Yeah. So like, I was talking about my experience directly where I'm involved with both communities like I can look at both of them. But I still identify with the LGBT community. Yeah, it's definitely I present that more, it's a bigger part of my identity, I think because of my art forms as well, it's a way that I express my queerness. And I can't really do that in the black community, because I can't change my skin color. Like that's not something that I can do. So I can be an advocate, I can be an ally, I can be very vocal, but I cannot claim to know firsthand what they experience. Whereas the LGBT community, I can, and where I see those two worlds collide, is present, even now. So one big thing that the LGBT community is trying to bring awareness to is that even though it is pride month, this Black Lives Matter movement is more important. And so who do we bring attention to black trans women? That's sort of where the spotlight is being redirected? Because we know that there's so many different layers of oppression to that demographic of people that not only are they being erased, but they are being tortured into being erased.

Christian  36:24  
Can you talk about that concept again, erasure, or a little bit more? Yeah. Being raised,

Speaker 1  36:30  
I mean, basic example, as you were mentioning, how we have the months to bring light to different Heritage's and backgrounds. Never in school. Do I remember there being a pride month that was ever celebrated? Maybe now, but not even after I graduated high school, was that a thing that was ever talked about? You do celebrate Black History Month, openly in school. But then when pride month comes around, it didn't exist. That just wasn't something that we talked about. And it was more so the argument for that was? Well, it's just a sensitive topic in the community. Oh,

Christian  37:07  
is the Eagles in June School's out? But maybe that

Speaker 1  37:11  
even I mean, some people graduated, like I graduated mid June, like it was still it still could have been your right, right? It still could have been celebrated. Or even the schools like there are colleges that are open that could talk about that. I think universities and colleges are more willing to have a discussion, because I think definitely they are more liberal hotspots, not a public school. Yeah. Or if they are a public university, they still attract a more liberal crowd. So that's something that is discussed and talked about, and we're more adult so we can talk about it. So I think the erasure aspect comes from there's one factor and that is, well, it's a topic that's that kids aren't mature enough to know about. So growing up, it's sensitive, but there's only sex education for heterosexual couples. So gay kids never learn about how sex works for queer people. And that becomes dangerous. And it's something that I've experienced firsthand where that's that sort of not knowing manifests itself into sexual frustration. And that then bleeds into race, most queer representation are white gays. And so there is a very openly racist part of the gay community, where they will put on their bios of their dating apps that they do not talk to blacks or Asians, but we don't see it. We see, you know, now there's biracial couples, and commercials and movies. And we're just now getting to see queer representation in media, but it's usually white. So we're like a step behind when we have the topic of race, within our own community. And so I feel like that's why this movement is so important, because we are saying that even our community has been in the wrong about racial discrimination, racial discrimination in general. Yeah, because there are plenty of queer people that say, Well, we are oppressed to. And then there's the other side saying, You're not as oppressed as queer people of color. They are at the lowest of the low. And that's why we are highlighting black trans women, I think this month, that's the goal because they are most likely to be killed, they are most likely to commit suicide. I think a statistic that I saw today, and I can get you the source on that later, is that the average lifespan for a black trans woman is 35. Yeah, wow. So not only are they erased as in your identity is invalid, but they are persecuted for being black. So it's also time for the LGBT community to admit our wrongs. us and see where we fall short and how we can do better about bringing people of color up within our own community.

Christian  40:08  
Are you starting to see more discussion about that? Most definitely.

Speaker 1  40:12  
I feel like as we talk about, you know, justice for George Floyd and justice for breonna Taylor, we also are seeing a hashtag starting to come up justice for Tony McDade black trans man that was killed by police, and almost nobody is talking about it. So it's time that we start focusing on those people too, because they are people too. And we want to talk about Black Lives mattering, they have to matter, everywhere. So I think that that's why it's kind of important that the Black Lives Matter movement overshadow pride, the face of the Pride Month has mostly been white and male.

Christian  40:54  
Interesting. So can I ask you a personal question? What's that been like for you dating since you present outwardly as white or your white passing? And you know that there is unfortunately, this racial hierarchy within the LG BT community? How do you navigate that?

Speaker 1  41:13  
Well, one big step that I've taken is choosing my dating apps wisely. I will say that I revolve around dating apps more because I feel like queer people are less likely to try to meet each other out in person, like I use dating apps more. It's just easier to meet people. Yeah. So Grindr is an app. That is disgusting. In my view. It's not just because the hookup app, but because of how when you're setting up your profile, and how you filter out people, it's based on two things, your your body type, and your race. And just recently, they said that they've eliminated race filters. But I think that that's something that could have been done a long, long time ago. And body type is also a prompt body type is also a prompt, and how do you what do you even say to that, so the body types have their own nicknames, too. So it's not even like I'm within, you know, this weight group.

Christian  42:16  
Like, I can't even imagine not telling anybody about my bodies. I

Speaker 1  42:19  
know. But that's like the one of the main things. nicknames, they have nicknames for these nicknames. So I hate being called this, and I hate calling myself this. But for example, I would be identified as a twink within the queer community, and it's just described someone that is tall and skinny. I hate it. Because the way that that body type is looked at, there are so many assumptions that come with it. And it's almost always assumed that, you know, the way that women are told like, well, they're asking for it. That body type comes with that assumption. Wow. Just the body type. Yeah.

Christian  43:01  
And so what are some of the other body types?

Speaker 1  43:04  
There is another obvious one, that's someone who's usually on the heavier side. And Harry, like, the the types are very specific.

Christian  43:14  
So what is there's like a drop down menu of this? Yes. Are you serious? Yes. You're really serious.

Speaker 1  43:20  
I'm very serious. And this is typically just for it's mostly a gay dating app, they have a type for if you test positive to HIV, they have a type if you're trans, but they didn't even call it trans. They call it like, I don't even remember, like, I'm not gonna go back on the app and look, but it was a derogatory term.

Christian  43:40  
It sounds like it's an app that was designed by bullies. Pretty much.

Speaker 1  43:46  
It was designed by white gay men. And those terms, those classifications, or I'm more than likely determined by white gay men. And this history has gone back so far, like the popular show pose really brings to light this divide, where black trans women were at the bottom, and so they had to create their own world, their own little community, within the LGBT community because they weren't even accepted by other queer members. So

Christian  44:19  
first, you said you choose your apps carefully.

Speaker 1  44:23  
I choose my apps carefully. And I'd be sure i I'm sure to be sure yeah.

Christian  44:35  
She was my ask me and it showed her

Speaker 1  44:42  
that game over on I'm, I'm sure to have more conversations with black queer people as well because there are little cliques that form within the gay community and that's one reason why I don't associate with them very often. A lot of my friends are straight. A lot of my friends are straight woman, and I just feel like I'm more comfortable there than even being within my own community. I'm

Christian  45:07  
just thinking like, you know, yes, my show focuses on racial ambiguity, but the other piece of it is belonging. Yeah. And, you know, I'm just, it saddens me to think that in a community that is already persecuted, already oppressed in many ways that that people exclude their own. Yeah. And what that must be like when you're talking about wanting to belong. So you've already got an identity that is a marginalized one, like people in society already set aside the LGBT community, for the most part, and then within people are excluded it

Speaker 1  45:45  
just, yeah. It's, I think it's difficult for us to come to terms with because already when you're out in society, not so much anymore. But going back to the idea of a racer, people just don't want to see you. And that's why I think Pride marches are the way that they are, it's like, you're forcing visibility, see me? Exactly. It's, it's as colorful, loud and glittery as possible. Because it's like, no, you will see us we do exist, you cannot deny our gender identity or sexuality, because it exists. It's not something that we choose, that's always been the biggest thing. Like, will you choose this lifestyle? No. Would we choose to be persecuted on the wreck? Like no, right? So there's that, but you can't have. You can't be this proud with your visibility. If you are pushing others to the back. Like, no, you can be proud, but be quiet about it, because we want them to accept us. Like, that's wrong. That's so wrong, like thinking that your community can't make it forward. Because you have an art another marginalized community holding you back. No, they need to come in tandem, like they need to happen together. I feel like you cannot ask for the progress of the queer community. If that means leaving behind your black brothers and sisters, and non binary folk. It's, you need to bring everybody and feel like that's why this happening right now is so pivotal, because you think it's waking up that community? Yeah. Because no, we need to admit that even though we are oppressed, we are oppressing our own. And that's wrong. And we can't do that. And we can't ask for acceptance if we're refusing to accept others. So it goes deeper.

Christian  47:44  
Right. So back to my, my question. Let's say you meet somebody, you know, do you lead with the fact that you're biracial to kind of find out? I mean, now knowing that race plays a much bigger part in the LGBT community than many people know. How do you write I guess the only question I would think I can think of is, how do you navigate that? Do you lead with that? Because that's something that is a known issue

Speaker 1  48:15  
an issue? Yeah. I think I do. I think I lead with that more often when it comes to dating than I do when it comes to making friendships, because they need to know who am I, whoever I'm going to see that that is a part of my life. And I'm very quick to shut it down. If I know that that's something that they don't care about, too. So it goes into like checking your friends, too. If you hear someone say, I don't date black people, then you can't like if you're not okay with a straight person saying that, you know, because having an interracial marriage was a problem, then you can't like let that happen when one of your own says that, too. So that does come first. I think that's one of the first things to come forward.

Christian  49:06  
Have you experienced any discrimination? Definitely not

Speaker 1  49:10  
because I look white. And I'm wide enough that it's doesn't distract from the fact so it's like hasn't been an issue for you. It's never been an issue for me, but I know how it's been an issue for friends of mine. Other

Christian  49:25  
bi nd know anyone else that's biracial and queer? I'm just curious. I'm wondering. So, you know, I hear that there are these social hierarchies within this community, but what happens when they overlap? So like when there's someone that's multiracial or biracial, that also identifies as part of the LGBT community? What how is that treated?

Speaker 1  49:47  
I think there's the desire to identify more with your white side,

Christian  49:53  
or do you think that most people that are biracial, biracial or multiracial,

Unknown Speaker  49:58  
I think if

Christian  50:00  
one parent is white, do you think they tried to identify more with the white? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  50:03  
because I know there are other kinds of biracial.

Christian  50:07  
Because you talked about this leveling, you know, there's hierarchy. So I'm thinking if they are, if they have white parents or white ancestry, they try to identify more with that to be on the safe side. So

Unknown Speaker  50:18  
yes.

Christian  50:21  
Do you think that hypo descent plays a part in the community to like the one drop rule where if you are a little bit black, you're just considered black? Do you think that a person with racist tendencies tends to see a person that's mixed with someone that like mixed with black ancestry? Do they see them as just black?

Speaker 1  50:37  
No, I think it is solely based on looks. So if you don't look that black, then you're fine. Oh, it's

Shawna  50:47  
so superficial.

Speaker 1  50:49  
That's my biggest thing. I've always thought that specifically the gay community because there is such a superficial approach to everything. And I think it's because that's pretty much all you get taught you don't learn about queer romances really growing up, at least I didn't. We're seeing that more now. But it's still not to the level, I think that would, we would appreciate. There's people complaining about, you know, why you have so many gay characters in this new TV show. And it's because like, we've never seen it before. And I think when you don't see it, you don't know how to reenact it, you don't know how that works. And so I think that lack of education of being queer, comes with your lack of relationships with other races, because you don't see it. So as

Christian  51:45  
your mom, I mean, I honestly didn't know how to talk to you about that. And of course, I didn't even always know, you know, so even, like, before you came out, I think probably any conversation we had about relationships, or girlfriend or anything like that was all from my point of view, right? You know, it was all like, me trying to prepare you for, you know, a future one day with a wife and what that might look like as a family and the things to consider. So I mean, as a parent, like, I actually haven't been prepared to teach my kids about, about this. And so I can understand how it would be kind of hard to try to navigate that on your own. And

Speaker 1  52:29  
when you are, I feel like you gravitate toward people that look most like you and know your experiences close to you as you do. And if you like, that's why there's sort of more of a segregation within the queer community because you gravitate towards those that you feel like you can relate to the most, because you don't see it anywhere else. Yeah. So there's always going to be a separation until you see it more. I

Christian  52:53  
mean, I'm gonna say, like, I noticed lately, you know, there are a lot more shows and things like that, and you watch them and, and I kind of laugh, not laugh, but I'm like, Oh, he's watching such as such again, you know, but it's no different than me like seeing a Thai commercial. Come on. And it's an interracial couple. I'm like, you know, because like sag in the day. Like, if you saw an interracial couple, it was like, like, what was the movie jungle fever or something where I was like, a black man and a white woman, or even some of my friends growing up who were biracial, like their parents were, the dad was black, and the mom was white. And you know, with us, it's the opposite, where I'm black and your dad's white, and you didn't see that a lot. And I was always hyper aware of that. Yeah. And so when I started to see like, these commercials started really in commercials. Like, I'd see the commercials. Come on. I'm like, oh, like, I'm a dork a little bit, but I like even want to, like, bring it into like, did you see b2c? Yeah. So I get it, when you when you can't see yourself represented in the media or mainstream anything. It's exciting to finally see that, because also, we didn't have the internet. When I was growing up, there wasn't a way to reach out to somebody, there were no apps, like we didn't have cell phones. But they were giant plugged in whatever. Like, you definitely weren't seeing anything than orange digital numbers on your screen. Right. So it's just a completely different time now. But I really appreciate you being so honest and open with me about this. I mean, you're my kid, but I'm still learning from you. Yeah, you know, there's a lot I don't know, either, or even your dad, you know, we try to talk through things together too. But he also doesn't know. Yeah. And so, you know, we try to educate ourselves. But I think that these kinds of conversations are so much more meaningful, new one because you are my kid, but also because, you know, different than scrolling through something on online. I can ask you questions and and because you're gracious enough to answer them. And I

Speaker 1  54:53  
mean, I feel like it goes both ways to have a parent that is willing to ask questions. I could not be more grateful for that. So yeah, I mean, I love you very much to so I'm glad that we have this sort of relationship where we're able to have an open and honest like, I'm glad that we can have an open and honest conversation about it. Thank you

Christian  55:29  
that's it for this episode. Thank you so much for hanging out. If you have any thoughts or comments about what you heard today, or about anything that you'd like to hear in the future, please reach out to me. You can find me on Facebook or Instagram at our True Colors podcast or you can reach me directly at true colors cast.com If you liked what you heard today, please rate and review the show. You can go to Apple podcast, scroll down to see the five stars and click all five and leave a great review for others so that they can join the conversation too. If you haven't already, I encourage you to subscribe so that you never miss an episode. This week we're going to go out to a new song by Kidd and Queen and it's called "Wait on Me" and it's featuring the artists Matt Skye so enjoy Be safe out there you guys share a smile with someone and as always, please find an opportunity to make someone feel welcome Love y'all talk to you soon.