Ian Gibbs-Hall on Curiosity Architecture and Rethinking Identity

In this episode of Our True Colors, Shawna is joined by co-host Rachel Sadler and special guest Ian Gibbs-Hall—a DEI advocate, thought leader, and creator of Curiosity Architecture. With over a decade of experience creating inclusive environments, Ian offers a fresh framework that invites us to move beyond checkboxes and binaries and into deeper, more curious ways of seeing one another.

Together, they explore identity, belonging, masculinity, and the limitations of social categories—highlighting how “other” doesn’t just mean different, but often means left out. From coloring books to Frozen 2, neoliberalism to Mr. Clean, this conversation is as layered as it is enlightening.

And yes—you’ll want to check out the video version for the moment Ian reacts to Shawna revealing she used to work at Blockbuster Video.

✉️ Want to submit a question for the final episode? Use the message feature above to send a text.

📚 Referenced Resources & Links

• The Ethics of Identity by Kwame Anthony Appiah: Buy the book | Watch a video about his work
• Commentary on the Mr. Clean Commercial (yes, that one): Watch it here
• What’s a “Soy Boy” anyway? Read more on the term and its cultural baggage

🎧 Related OTC Episodes

• CJ Gross on Navigating Identity & Nuance
• Londell Jackson on Masculinity & Belonging

If this is your first time with OTC, check out  EPISODE 1: START HERE for more background on the show. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram!

Our True Colors is powered by The Culture Crucible. Go to THE HUB to learn more!
Consider joining the Critical Mixed Race Studies Association!

Transcript

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INTRODUCTION  00:06

Welcome to our true colors, hosted by Shawna Gann. Join her as she explores the challenges of being a racial riddle, an ethnic enigma and a cultural conundrum. Let's dive in. You.

Shawna  00:23

Shawna, Hi everyone. Welcome back to our true colors. I'm Shawna, your host, and as always, I'm so glad you're here in today's episode, Rachel and I welcome Ian Gibbs Hall, a dei advocate and thought leader with over a decade of experience creating inclusive environments in response to the evolving challenges of diversity, equity and inclusion, Ian developed curiosity architecture, a groundbreaking methodology that encourages individuals and organizations to examine and re imagine the underlying beliefs and assumptions shaping their actions. It's a fascinating approach that fosters genuine connection, inspires systemic change and challenges us to rethink how we connect with one another. I think it aligns beautifully with the heart of our true colors. 

Before we jump into the episode, just a quick heads up at some point along the way, you might notice a little shift in the audio quality. I have no idea what happened to y'all, but my mic had a moment it it just did what it did. I don't know there was a surprise cameo from tech gremlins. You'll hear it, but I hope that the message is still loud and clear. 

Here's something else you should know. Season Five is almost over. Y'all The time has gone so fast. You know, typically we close out the season with a special mixtape episode with CO hosts, but this time, I'm doing something a little bit different. I'll be joined by Chad, my husband, for the final episode. You've heard me talk about him a lot over the course of the show, but now you will get to hear from him directly. If there's anything you'd like for me to reflect on or address in that episode, and it could be from any season, or just curiosities you have. I'd love to hear from you. Just use the link in the show notes to send your thoughts or questions. It's kind of like a chat. I'll include them in the final episode with all of that. 

Are you ready to start? Let's dive into the conversation with Ian Gibbs Hall. Here we go.

Shawna  02:27

Rachel 

Rachel  02:28

Shawna, 

Shawna  02:29

Hi, 

Rachel  02:30

How are you doing?

Shawna  02:32

There's that question again, how am I doing? I am you know what? Actually I'm doing okay. I'm doing okay. You know what I've been doing, I've been coloring

Ian  02:44

same. Are you serious? I am not planning your face. I just got some markers and this cute coloring book called cozy coloring. My husband had

Shawna  02:53

these coloring books from forever ago, and I remembered they were in the basement. I literally was down like rummaging like I'm a fun use of coloring books. Got out the Prismacolor, the fancy, I don't even have Crayolas. I got prismacolor pencils. These things are, like, 20 years old, probably, I don't know if I've ever told you this. So my husband, Chad, he used to be a graphic artist, like, for the Air Force, no way. Yeah, and they don't have them anymore. The graphic artist that went away, but he was doing that work, and that meant he had to go to, like, art school and stuff. That's cool. And so we have all these things, and I just started. It's so relaxing.

Ian  03:31

It's supposed to be, but the way my ADHD is set up is I have to be good at it immediately. So I'm watching people, and they're doing the shading, and I'm like, it looks raggedy. Why is it not looking good? And it's supposed to be fun, and I have turned it into an obsession. So I love that you are relaxing with it. I want to be like the next coloring book artist. I just like

Shawna  03:53

the idea of being still. I like audio books, and so I throw on whatever I'm listening to at the moment and color. I guess for about a week I've been doing it, and I'm like, I like this. We should be kids more often. You know, I always say that, like grown ups, we forget how to play, we forget how to chill.

Ian  04:12

You already know, I'm gonna go left with that that is a key proponent of neoliberalism, is making us make all of our time monetized, even the kids are doing that. I'm not going to go down this rabbit hole

Shawna  04:22

today. Well, a little bit. What do you mean, even the kids are doing that because we asked five year olds what

Ian  04:27

they want to be when they grow up. We ask children to dream of labor before we ask them to do anything else. Like, that's true. You like about yourself. What do you like about your friends? What do you want to be at home? Like, let's prepare you for work. Yeah, I think men and children are kind

Shawna  04:40

of obsessed with identity too. And so adults often associate, I think, associate their identities with whatever their occupation is. And so they think that five year olds have to do, you know what the bad part about that is, I love what I do, but I didn't even know it was a job until I met other people doing it. And when you're five. Five or 10. There's like, the 10 community jobs you learn on Sesame Street, and that's it. Yeah,

Ian  05:04

I was like, teacher, firefighter, policeman,

Shawna  05:07

the people in your neighborhood. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I that. Okay. You don't remember that song. I

Ian  05:13

do not remember that. But are

Shawna  05:14

you kidding me right now? Rachel, okay, I know I'm older than you, but I'm not that much older than you. We're both on

Ian  05:23

elder millennials. Friend, I'm not a millennial. Boo, well, I mean Sesame Street, right? Yeah, yeah, I probably didn't watch Sesame Street, you know, I was raised by Republicans, and they didn't watch Captain Planet you were I was not allowed to watch Captain Planet. I was like, I want to watch the people save the world. And they were like, you're gonna turn into a liberal tree hugger. Guess what? Friends, I am that. And then some good job.

Shawna  05:54

Okay, did you at least watch Fraggle Rock? Or was that? Yes? Okay, because there were tree huggers in there too. Also uncle traveling. Matt, yeah, but that

Ian  06:02

was probably covert, and they're bringing stuff like that back. I brought a strawberry shortcake t shirt cake is back. Yep, at Five Below. I haven't been

Shawna  06:11

at Five Below in a minute, but you know, so Do you ever watch drag race like Ru Paul's drag race? Okay, so do you know snatch game? Love it for people out there who don't know Ru Paul's drag race and what snatch game is, it's basically like match game, except naughty, and it's with impressions that the drag queens do. And so my son, who is a drag performer, Y'all follow him the Amy amor, I will link it in the show notes. We are always talking about when he's gonna be on Ru Paul and what his snatch game character is. And I really wanted him to be like, Strawberry Shortcake at 35 or rainbow, bright, or rainbow, bright, oh my God, but he can't do it because copyright he was like, I can't do copyrighted characters. But could you imagine, like, strawberry shortcake? Now, like, you could have so much fun with that. She's like, I had to be a child star, you guys. I just, it was a lot, so I just went the other way,

Ian  07:01

it's strawberry pound cake. Now

Shawna  07:03

we all be getting in pounds later. That's okay, okay. We have covered a lot, so let me just bring us back in. There's not even a good segue to go from strawberry pound cake to our guest. So I'm just gonna shift gears immediately, Rachel. We have Ian Gibbs Hall today. He is a dei advocate and a thought leader. And there's going on with the world of diversity, equity, inclusion, the DEI, the DEI B Jedi, whatever you call it. And with all of these challenges going on, he's developed a curiosity, architecture

Ian  07:42

curiosity architecture isn't that like they sit on my palette for a minute. I'm into

Shawna  07:47

it, right? You're interested. Just the name makes you curious, right? Folks right now are looking for new approaches and finding understanding and meaning in this work. So I am super excited to have him. Hey, Ian, welcome. Thank you

Speaker 2  08:05

so much for that incredibly kind introduction, and it's great to be here. Sean and Rachel. I'm excited to see what happens and what we can learn from each other.

Shawna  08:12

No doubt, no doubt. I'm excited to have you. I know I gave an introduction as to what you do, but I'd love to hear a little bit about who you are. So what can you share with our listeners about

Speaker 2  08:24

yourself? So right out of the bat, you know, I'm a CIS, gendered, biracial man. I am a relatively new parent. I have a two and a half year old who has the opinions of someone who's been through a World War which is challenging in its own right and enlightening in its own right, and exhausting. Always, I grew up, like, born and raised in the Midwest, just moved up and down. I've been kind of, like, racially ambiguous in places like rural Iowa, rural Minnesota makes for a very weird upbringing. I haven't even thought of it. I had a lot of dogs growing up. That's a whole different thing, like borderline too many dogs that consumed our family. It was, it was great.

Shawna  09:05

I have to interrupt because I have a lot of dogs. How many is too many dogs? 

Ian  09:09

24 dogs, 14 cats, a pig of sheep and okay,

Shawna  09:13

I'm just gonna keep you on going. You absolutely win. We're all

Speaker 2  09:17

outside. We had a barn that came out twice a year, went through 100 pounds of food a week. It was our personal Island misfit toys.

Shawna  09:25

Okay, stay tuned for part two of this episode when we learn about the dogs and the cats, because I'm really very curious about

Ian  09:33

that. Even though pivoting

Speaker 2  09:35

from that, I like to I like to add who I am with how I am. And right now I'm incredibly excited just I think being in the spaces that I've been growing up, there hasn't been a lot of other people that do an air quotes. Other people look like me in terms of skin color, race, everything. And thank you being able to meet you Shawna, now meet you, Rachel. It's been it's been really nice. It's nice to feel less alone, and I have no idea where this conversation will go, and I'm thrilled to discover together. Yeah,

Shawna  10:08

I love that, adding the how I am to the who I am, I

Speaker 2  10:12

think it's everything I can talk more about that later. We're here for it.

Shawna  10:17

You talked about not having a lot of people around you that looks like you or that you can necessarily relate to. So one of the big things on this show that's important to me, at least, is belonging the concept of it. People feeling it, when you don't often see yourself represented, and you're asked, whether formally or informally, spoken or unspoken, to choose a certain box to fit in, it can actually be even more isolating and feel like a greater lack of belonging. At least for me, I'm speaking for myself, but I know in speaking to guests on the show and also other folks that I've spoken to through interviews and so on, that other folks feel this way too. So one of the biggest challenges as organizations are learning how to and I'm doing air quotes now do because I don't like saying do dei but apply principles of diversity, equity, inclusion. Is that be that belonging piece? And I don't know that people know how to accomplish that. They know how to diversify a hiring pool. They know what fairness looks like now, and they know what it means to include folks. But how can we truly foster a sense of belonging for folks? What are your thoughts on that? I think

Speaker 2  11:33

it starts with authenticity. I think so many of the conversations around belonging, around you know how organizations can work to promote a sense of belonging. It's I mainly hear of what belonging is. You know, it's being asked to dance, not just being invited to the dance, which I love that metaphor, and why it's why it's important. And don't want to disagree with any of those. But I think the how is missing from so many of those talking points and so many of those discussions. And I strongly believe that the how is authenticity, and to kind of go back to the boxes that you talked about, and how those can be isolating so much of diversity, equity and inclusion does the necessary work of promoting awareness that the world in which we live is built on identity. You know, within the the social hierarchies that we have and the way that policies, processes and ways of thinking are structured, we are labeled, we are grouped. We are characterized with certain narratives and assumptions of what we should do all the time. And so much of dei kind of stops there. It's trying to promote awareness that these groups exist and that there is a power dynamic, there is an oppressor and there's an oppressed. And that is so necessary, and we need to go a little further as people, as a collective. We need to understand that every individual in each of those groups is so wonderfully and overwhelmingly complex in ways that we can't fully imagine, that we need to lean in a little bit instead of going, oh, you know, you got the you look this way, and you have that skin color, and you from then you like that sports team, so you're this that could be true, and there's so much we can never know about someone else, but we have to try.

Speaker 3  13:24

Yeah, and you used that analogy about being asked to dance, and I've heard another version of that that builds on it, that says, like, diversity is being invited to the dance, inclusion is being asked to dance. And I've heard belonging is asking what music you want to dance to. And I was like, I love that, because it gets into, like, what you just said, being intentional about getting to know people. Like, yeah, you can come and you can dance, but it's my music. So like it or not, but then asking folks, what is it that's important to you then that you could bring to this space that we're sharing? So I dig that what comes up for you, Rachel,

Ian  14:04

oh, but I think that last comment you made is what it is, right? Like, you can come to my party, but I'm gonna play the music I want, and I'm gonna have the hors d'oeuvres that I'm into, and you know, you're gonna deal with it. That's how things have been constructed up to this point. And I think there's this tension between what we know we should be doing and what's comfortable. Remember that show sweet 16 that used to come on MTV, that's what it reminds me of. It's like, I want all of these things, and it's going to be this way, and there better be a car parked out for me, and if it's not, I'm going to throw a tantrum. And I think metaphorically, that's kind of what we get when we're trying to get other people's input and preferences and all these things, and then there's this pushback because, like, No, I want it this way, because it makes me comfortable. I like to listen to these things. These are my favorite foods. You're just gonna have to go do whatever you do when you mind your own business.

Speaker 3  14:54

And how many times do we do that in a space? Oh, it's okay that your space. Space isn't meant for me. I'll just assimilate and do the best I can to feel like I fit here and that I can also have the same fun as everybody else, or the same experience, or whatever. And so in a way, we do our best, I think, to lean into our authenticity, but we still need, I believe, the spaces to accommodate us, in a way, to even be authentic.

Ian  15:23

So then I'm curious what Ian thinks about this, like this idea of this, like rugged individualism we have as Americans. It's like a unspoken sort of expectation. So how do you pair that, or think about that concept and being authentic and not being overly individualistic, right? Like, how do we look at communal aspects of authenticity?

15:44

Y'all, he's rubbing in hand, he's ready.

Speaker 2  15:46

Rachel, that is such a phenomenal question, and it highlights the way that we use words and how words don't mean the same thing for everyone. When I say individual, I mean, like, the one of a kind experience that everyone has, that no one else can truly understand. I think the one that you're like referring to is like me. It's ego,

16:08

yeah, the sweet 16,

Speaker 2  16:12

and that was for a fact I know to be true. It's a pattern that I've seen. It's what I base all of my work off of. But I think so much of the divide that we have in this country, around the world, everywhere. Yes, there is hatred, there's a lot of self interest, there's a lot of like, polarizing things, but I think that that polarizing piece comes from different levels of awareness, and that on one side, those who have benefited from like, the way that things are, they are clinging to that status quo. And it's, I think, Rachel, to your point, before, it's like, there's a sense of comfort that comes with it. It's like, Oh no, please, please, don't change this. Because, like, right now, had a pretty good life. Like, I have a job. I don't have to do much for because I just have to fit the role, and then everything works. And I have status, I have power. I have a jet ski. Jet skis are great. Let's just stay here. Don't make me do something different. It's It's believing in the meritocracy, or it's believing that, you know, if you work hard, things will pay off, and that you got where you are because of, you know, everything that you've done, which is true. And the foundation that all of that is on is that some people, a lot of people, most people, are oppressed to allow for that outcome to occur. So this, like, No, I want to protect this. Like, let me, let me have whatever it's like, oh no, just don't, don't show me what's behind the curtain, because then that's going to unravel everything that I know, and it could take away some of the power that I have. And please don't do that, because I really like my jet ski,

Speaker 3  17:42

what a dichotomous situation to be in. I think about that all the time, the clinging to power and privilege but resisting the truth of why that is. Yep, that's always the issue with there's there's denial that there is that Head Start, but please don't make me give it up. And then

Ian  18:02

there's a denial of that, because when you think of folks that have been marginalized in other ways, like perhaps they're in poverty, they don't have great educational systems and so forth, right? And they there is, there is hard work that was done, and there's this perception that we're telling them that, like they didn't work hard and they had everything handled to them, so privileges can privilege is conflated with like wealth, when privilege can mean a ton of things, and that inability to see that, yes, you worked hard, but look at how much harder this other person has to work by virtue of identities that are not privileged in our society. And then we promote individualism, but we don't promote reflection. We don't promote that intrinsic knowledge of self. We promote taking care of self and prioritizing self, but we don't help people understand who they are, what they think, why they think, and do that, that internal work.

Speaker 3  18:56

Maybe that's a good place to pivot a little bit to what you do, and because I'm thinking about that reflection piece, and also that, you know, Rachel, you're talking about, we don't really promote that. So leaders are perfectly positioned to help foster some of these things, but not all do, and not all know how to do that. So as I think about authenticity and how we'd like to encourage folks to show up, what kinds of things get in the way of helping people or leading people authentically,

Speaker 2  19:27

whether we're cool with how things are with the status quo, or we even can go one step below and see like, Oh no, there are identities here that allow this, this reality to occur. There is still an expectation of how things should be, what you should do, what is right, what is wrong, what is your role, what's the narrative that follows you?

Speaker 3  19:46

You're saying for leaders, they're getting caught up on the should everybody

Speaker 2  19:50

okay? I see this constantly with with my my two and a half year old as he's growing up. Like the way that we are framing how everything works is like, Oh, well, that it's. Match this with that. What is the right answer? This is a blue square. Where's the blue thing? Like put it together so leaders, people that find themselves in leadership roles, and from my experience, are bound by this idea that they have to get it right. They need to do the right thing next. It's up to them to lead courageously. It's that rugged individualism who will save us from all this, who's the next president that's going to pull us out of the mire of all the stuff that we're dealing with, as opposed to looking at a leader, someone who brings people together, who doesn't have all of the answers, but can identify the common intent that brings people together, and that recognize what each person brings to the table and then lets either the problem fully show itself and then a solution show itself based on who's in the room. Like, yeah, that that, to me, is leadership. But instead, it's like, no, you have to give them a sword or a machete and I gotta hack through and they have to prove how effective they are. And that doesn't help anybody, especially the leader.

Speaker 3  21:00

I love that you said that. You know, I work with a lot of emerging leaders, people who are either being prepared to take over a role or they're brand new in the role, and many of them really struggle with I have to know the answers that imposter syndrome is so real to them because they feel like, oh, I have this title now, or I'm about to have this title, and I can't let them know that I don't know. It's like the Wizard of Oz, right? Like they can't ever know that I don't know what I'm doing yet. But the style of leadership that you described is much more of like a coaching leadership space, or that developmental leader who just brings people together and says, All right, what we got? What can we do? Rather than let me just tell you everything I know, and I shall hand down my knowledge to you, because they don't actually have it, or we don't. None of us have all the knowledge anyway,

Speaker 3  21:58

I think that is a good place to ask you about your concepts with curiosity and what curiosity architecture is. I'd love for you to tell us about it.

Speaker 2  22:09

Yeah, so curiosity architecture is, it's a structured framework that not to sound too like try to sound prolific or anything, but can serve as a portal to find different levels of awareness that will let us find connection with each other. It is 26 personas, 26 states of being that I've identified and flushed out and through that have found three levels of questions that help people like uncover the beliefs that they hold, whether they're aware of them or not, explore what realities those beliefs create, to see how our current situation that we're in could be caused by the lens that they view the world through, and then re imagine what world we could be in together if we shifted those beliefs ever so slightly. And so it's not about convincing anyone. It's not about telling them what is right or what it's wrong. It's about sitting together and truly being open and asking, what's that like, and listening and then trying to see, okay, well, this is what I believe. This is what I see. What do you see? And over time, lead to a few paradigm shifts. Something clicks, or at least it can click if you just keep doing this over and over and over again. So that's what it is. It's, it's to bring people together. It's to look past the labels, the boxes, the narratives. It's to look past identity. We still need identity, because everything that we've built is is on that, and it's given so much structure and meaning. But then see, oh, that's just the veil. Who are we? How are we beyond it?

Speaker 3  23:45

I know English doesn't have enough words. I feel like we need another word for identity, because when you just think about like, What's in your wallet an ID, it is just a representation, a very superficial one, of who you are. But we're so much more than that, than those individual little labels on our IDs. And there's a space that a lot of mixed race people, multiracial folks, hold where, because we're often in this liminal space where we are not either this or that. You know, again, that's why my book is called this, that and the other, right, where we're not just this one singular identity. There's almost a power in that to be able to hold the all of it and maybe come in with more curiosity than someone who hasn't had the same exposure to the same lived experiences that we've had, where we've been in this liminal space, this in between. I think,

Speaker 2  24:43

yeah, I mean, for the longest time I thought it was a curse. I thought being a shade of gray when everything else is black and white, is like, oh, like, what? What is wrong with me? Why can't I just, like, growing up in rural Iowa, it's like, well, I'll do. I'll. Do what I'm expected to do. I'll grow my hair out. I'll wear the stuff I'll do, like, and I'm like, Oh, but I also, like, love John Denver. So like, what does that mean? Like, what is happening? I did laugh. Yeah. I'm sorry,

Ian  25:12

yeah, sorry, Ian, sorry to cut you off, you and my mom. Like, my mom's like, the only black person on the planet that loves John Denver. So like, Ian can be added to that

Speaker 2  25:20

great stuff. I mean, that that's one of the things that always, always got me, like, what middle school I would do, like, I would do everything I could to try and be, quote, unquote, from what people told me in rural Iowa, was black. I wore Birdman lugs South Pole pants, and I was, like, trying so desperately. Like, this is what you want me to be, but I still love Carly Rae Jepsen, it's just, it's great, like, I can't, like, right now, like, it's still, like, my number one song that I like, loop is anything by Alanis Morissette. Oh, my

Speaker 3  25:49

God, I was looking for that this morning. Sorry, I didn't mean to do that. Total, I just went back to Jagged Little Pill this morning. Because why

Speaker 2  25:55

not? Not to, like, lay claim to anything. So I found Jagged Little Pill very, late, but as of last year, I was in the point 00, 5% of all Alanis Morissette listeners like I've just, it's just, just makes sense to me. It's yeah. So

Ian  26:11

this does not make me feel bad for being in love with like Hanson when I was in high school.

26:21

Yeah. Also Ian, I spontaneously, it's

Ian  26:23

a treat. She does that. But yes, my Well, I think that also goes back to Ian, how, like, you were talking about, like, how are you I don't see the word cosplaying. How are we putting on the the racial guys of how people identify us, and even though I am mixed, my mom's black, my dad's white I was raised to have an affinity for, like, whiteness. So remember, had them bop team, bop magazines. My entire wall was, it was yellow, and you can see it because it had Taylor, Hanson, Devin, Sawa, all of these white boys and, like, it was cool for a while, and then I found me a Shamar Moore picture, and your girl's eyes were open to the other side, and all that came down, and then came, then diesel and the rock and all these other aspirational sort of imaginations of my 16 year old self. And it was like I needed permission to be or do or like or appreciate something else and like this. There was this caricature I was putting on because the expectations of, like, kind of my family, yeah, that kind of felt okay, because I was, like, also an Aerosmith girlie, Alanis Morissette, all of that stuff. Like, I wasn't allowed to listen to hip hop or rap or anything like that. So all the old dances y'all can do, the Roger Rabbit I just stand there look stupid, because I don't know how to do them, because I wasn't allowed to. I was allowed to listen to New Kids on the Block and Ace of Base and Mariah Carey, because Mariah Carey was mixed. So of course, well, so

Speaker 3  27:47

is the rock and Vin Diesel. So you kind of were making your way.

Ian  27:51

I was ebbing my way into it, because now I am definitely a ko fi girly. Let me tell you. I have already, I have just ebbed all the way to the other side. But it was kind of like that, that inching into that, right? Because, like we talk about skin tone, lighter skin is preferable under colorism than darker skin, right? So in my mind, just like in I think in reality, that was like an easier transition into experimenting with, what do I like to see and associate myself with? We're talking about Taylor Hanson too tomorrow. That was like, That is not a bridge too far for the way I was raised and kind of indoctrinated racially.

Speaker 3  28:35

You know, I don't know if I've ever told this story before, but during my middle school years, I had moved from Alaska, where I grew up, to Pittsburgh, I think we were there for five or six years. And during those middle school years, of course, the most awkward, self conscious years, I started to learn more about hip hop and kind of, I mean, the 90s hip hop, though, was kind of amazing, like R B and hip hop was amazing in the 90s, but that was sort of the space I was kind of growing up in there. I had also gone to a Christian school, so there was also the what I was listening to on the bus, versus showing up and going to chapel as the deer panteth for the water. Okay, Jesus. So like that. I had to do that. But then I was like, listen to tone Loke on the way home and the bus. Okay, so that I don't know how that went, moved back to Alaska, but then I didn't have to go to Christian school anymore. I went to public school, and all my friends were like, oh, Shawna, don't become secular. Don't be worldly. I was like, you don't know how worldly I'm about to be like, but. But what happened was this the group of friends that I found myself with. They liked, like, B 50 twos. Mm. And the presidents of the United States, and I totally started getting into, like, Seattle Garage Band stuff. So I went from like, tone Loke and shy to, you know, presidents of the United States singing peaches and everything. Well, I saved my little monies working at Blockbuster, and flew back to Pittsburgh to visit my friends. And I was playing different radio stations. I don't remember the one radio station, but this was the day of, like, rump shaker. It was like that time, you know, my friend Heather, who is white, was like singing rumshaker. But then we'd go for a ride, and I turn it on to B 94 which was the alternative music. And she actually, after that visit, no longer would be my friend, because she said I was trying to be white, and I'm like, Girl, you're white. But she didn't want to be white, or she didn't like that culture, whatever, and she thought I was becoming a caricature of something and would not allow me to explore this other music that, I mean, I did it anyway, but you know what I'm saying, like I was judged for it, and so that's a memory that really stands out to me. It's, it's like, how come I can't just like all this music? I can like rumshaker, I can like shy I'm totally loving Bellevue and Bobby Brown all that. But also Pearl Jam is kind of cool. Like I liked both. How does she get to be

Ian  31:30

the arbiter of your identity? Like, need to be able to think that they can be the arbiter of your identity is wild to me.

Speaker 3  31:37

And also what your identity means, like those associations. You know, anyway, that's what was coming to mind for me, is it's like because we look a certain way. Also, I would say, because of the one drop rule, we're automatically supposed to be all this one identity, and then whatever is associated with that. By the way, black folks do love other things. Go check out the episode with CJ gross, where he's like, he's got his, I don't think it was a jet ski. Ian, maybe he was just going skiing, or whatever he's he's like, I'm learning all this new stuff just because you hold a certain social identity that's, you know, this the construct of whatever this race is. Folks have slapped this label on you. Does that mean you can't be a whole person, and, like other things,

Speaker 2  32:24

you can question before, like, you know, who is she? To be the arbiter of your of your race, of your identity? It made me reflect on so much of like, what I experienced growing up as a kid, which was, I think, the classic microaggression of, like, where are you from, and when you get that so many times, everywhere you are, and it's rural Iowa, it's like Northern Minnesota there, there's a pattern of, at least, that I saw as a kid, of people, like, being concerned. It wasn't this, like, anger was like, no, like, I don't know how to treat you. I don't know how to label it. You're not this. You're not that. What are you? And I'd be like, oh, you know, my dad's black, my mom's White. I'm just, I'm here, like, Oh, so you're so you're black, okay, okay. Like, once they could label it, there'd be this, release, this, like, oh, okay, okay, that's how I'll treat you. But you're also, like, different while, like, you know, bully you and stuff. But it's this, like, needing to know something. How should I be around you? What is the expectation I have? This, this belief that, like almost you can trace back any instance where someone is, like, angry, if you ask them, why? Enough, they will get to a foundation of because I don't know, like I'm scared, like anger may is feel like a natural response to fear, and I it feels like so many people are afraid because no one knows what the heck is going on, and we're not curious enough to go, what's this like for you?

Ian  33:55

Yeah, that's really interesting. And there's a there's a terminology for it that's escaping me for at the moment, but it was like, what you were talking about, like, how do i i I need to know how to treat you based on these very fundamentally slim categories. And there's that idea of like, who is like, slavable, who is marginalizable, by virtue of what we have fundamentally collectively agreed upon, is an identifying factor. So for example, when you think of who does domestic labor, we imagine, because we have been taught under patriarchy that women do that. And so now, when you have folks that identify as men doing these domestic things, then there's this ascription of meaning to that that is like you are just doing subordinate work, because that is women's work. And as we are evolving as a people to understand that everybody should know how to wash dishes and fold clothes that we are we are trying to take away those labels that people have constructed societies around. So if we say this group is not marginalizable Because of. Intone, gender, whatever, then we are saying that everybody now is on this level playing field of who should be able to do what, and that fundamentally takes away people's power, because then they say, Well, I therefore have to treat you like I would treat somebody that looks like me. And there's some equity there that I don't want to admit that other people should have.

Speaker 3  35:19

Oh my gosh, Rachel, you know what comes to mind when you say that when people have sort of associated a certain role, whether it's a domestic role or not, and you talk about who people think should be doing whatever housework and so on, if they do switch that role up, it somehow has to be like fetishized. The first thing that came to my mind was the sexy Mr. Clean. Like he can't just be a dude cleaning. Did you ever see that commercial? Yes,

Ian  35:47

I did, and it's so annoying. Like, please like him to slow, get out of my face. Like it is not that serious. It really is not that crucial. But like, patriarchy survives under the determination. That's like this thing where people on the right are calling liberal men soy boys, because they, like, are in touch with their feelings and like, can read things. And somebody that I know used that term, and I was just like, Well, every soy boy that I know has a partner and you don't, so maybe there's something to that emotional intelligence piece. Perhaps,

Speaker 2  36:21

I think what has happened to men, mostly straight men, in this world, is tragic, because the only way that we can truly define what an identity is, and a lot of this is from the work of Kwame Anthony Appiah. He's a philosopher who wrote the book The ethics of identity like love. That text, no one knows what an identity is. There is no commonly defined narrative that says, Oh, this is what it means to be black. This is what it means to be white. This is what it means to be a man, a woman, etc. It's mushy. And right now, so many people are operating as if, like it's defined, and you know, you need to be this way. But one of the things that I that it's emerged for me, is like, what makes the most sense with identity. What is always true is that you can define them by what they are, by what they are not, I think being mixed race, it's always like, Oh, you, you're, what are you? Well, you're not white, so you're You're something else. You are othered other. The actual definition of other is one that is not already mentioned, like, if we have these dominant identities. What isn't there? You're like, skin's little brown hair, little curly. Look at your that side frame like, No, you're not one of us. You're over here. And so if we take that concept of like, well, being a man just isn't being a woman, you know, masculinity is just not femininity, and looking at it as an either or not a both, and we have generations of half the population not knowing themselves, because if we break down femininity to what it is, it's self awareness. It's a connection to how you feel and who you are and and it's knowing like how you feel in any given moment. It is the appreciation of life around you. It is wonderful. It is powerful. It's strong. And as I think this, like, I become more like, flexible, because I'm not, like, bound by like, oh, I have to just deadlift every day. It's like, no, if you work on your flexibility, you get, like, remarkably strong. It's really cool. But, like, that's flowy, that's feminine, like, cool. Like, great. So we've created this, this binary where men are expected to they are told to hook themselves away, don't feel anything, don't cry, don't show vulnerability in any way, because that's weak. Being yourself is weak. And instead, we have this, this road to misogyny. I

Speaker 3  38:39

S, how do we help folks feel okay with a little bit of risk so that they can get the benefits of curiosity? I want

Speaker 2  39:08

to go back to your earlier question, like before Shawna about like leadership. I think this goes back to having having people that can act as catalysts or curators of space to let participants know that if they engage with that curiosity, if they discover something about themselves that was once unknown and now it is known, that they'll be okay, that they won't be outed or ousted, or, you know, fired or on the street, that like hey, if you if something comes out, like if you laugh And you snort, or you share us like your deepest target, like that's fine, like we're here for it, not to blame you or shame you or make you feel guilty, but like we genuinely want to know if you can create, instead of control, if you can create something together. I think that's what you need. I can't believe I'm doing this. Going to frozen? Hmm. Like, if you watch those two, the first and the second, as many times as I have, and you imagine yourself as Elsa, something really cool can happen. There's there's three songs that you can play back to back. You're like, this is cathartic. If you do, let it go into the unknown. Show yourself every person can be Elsa, let go of the trauma and the beliefs of what you once were, go into the unknown. You know, I'm afraid of what I'm risking when I'll follow you like and I could find out what that is, and then at the end, you can remember who and how you are, as opposed to all this stuff that's been distracting us and keeping us separated. That's

Speaker 3  40:38

really great. I haven't watched the second frozen. I did see the first one in theaters with my second graders back in the day. But we can learn a lot. Can't wait, I think, as lead, you know, as you went back to that space of leadership and that curation of space, that psychological safety has to be so established, so that the folks there can trust that that space will be held for them, that they can be who they are, going into the unknown. And that's scary. It's so scary when we're faced every day with judgments and real life consequences that we see happening these days, with people who are frankly freaked out about identity, yeah, and what their beliefs about identity are, and what the realities of identity are, and that fear is manifesting in some concrete ways that hopefully we are we have enough people in our society to be resolute enough to protect those spaces so that We can continue to be Who we are, authentically. And

Speaker 3  42:10

I have realized that it's just gone so fast. Ian, thank you for joining us today and having these really meaningful discussions. This was so good. Appreciate it.

Speaker 2  42:19

Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thanks for the opportunity and for sharing your perspective. And I learned so much, and it was great to get to know you more and be a part of this, where

Speaker 3  42:30

can folks find you and keep up with all the amazing stuff you're doing. I know you've got some stuff in the works, so

Speaker 2  42:37

my website is, what if blueprint.com and then if you have any questions, comments, concerns, criticisms, anything, or want to learn more about curiosity architecture and how it could benefit, you email me anytime. I'm just Ian at what if blueprint.com or I'm on LinkedIn, and I'd love to hear your perspective, what you think, and see what we can build together if you're curious, perfect.

Speaker 3  43:02

Thank you, friend. I really appreciate you coming on today. Thanks Rachel, for hanging with us too. It's

Ian  43:08

always a good time. I agree. I agree. Take care, everybody. Protect your peace, friends in the today of things, Joy is resistance and the onslaught of all of the information that we are bombarded with on a regular basis, and as I always like to say, drink your water, mind your Business and find those small opportunities to be great. You.

Shawna  43:40

I So what did you think of that conversation? It was pretty good, right? I don't know about you, but I'm going to be thinking about that one for a while. Ian gave us so much to sit with, and so did Rachel, from curiosity and connection to codes and categories and just everything in between. But before we close, I wanted to zoom out and reflect on something that really stayed with me. In particular, Ian brought up the word other, right? How many times do we say that in our everyday conversations, the way he framed its meaning as one that is not already mentioned, I don't know, for some reason that stopped me in my tracks. I mean, think about that. It's not just about difference. It's about being left out entirely. And this is so powerful to me, I think because, you know, I'm in the throes of writing my book, and even when it comes to the industry of book publication, I just always want to advocate for groups of people who are racially or ethnically or culturally ambiguous, because so many of these industries don't even acknowledge these groups of people. They say, you know, the population of mixed folks is just too small to matter like what? So your entire identity only has meaning if it fits into something that someone else. Is already defined, otherwise you're just other that's not just isolating. It feels like erasure. These kinds of conversations remind me of why I even started our true colors in the first place, to explore identity beyond the check boxes and to make space for nuance, curiosity and connection, because we're here and we matter. And as we near the end of the season, I just wanted to remind you, as I mentioned at the start of this episode, though, we usually do a mixed tape style episode featuring our CO hosts, this time, I've invited my husband Chad to have a conversation with me. I can't wait to talk with him about his experiences being married to a racially ambiguous person like me, being a parent of mixed race children and so on. You can help us form this conversation. If there's anything that you are curious about, if you have any questions for the episode, anything from me, please do send it. There's a link in the show notes where you can reach out to me after that final episode, though, our true colors will be going on pause for an undetermined amount of time while I focus on finishing my book. So this is a great chance to connect before we close this chapter. Until next time, stay curious, stay connected and keep embracing your true colors. Spread the Love y'all. I'll talk to you soon. You

Intro  46:34

You've been listening to our true colors. You.